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Old 11-19-2007, 09:19 PM
TRanger TRanger is offline
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Depending on which authority you rely on, the .38 Special was introduced either in 1899 or 1902. Does anyone know of a reliable source to confirm the true date of this cartridge's introduction?
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Old 11-19-2007, 09:19 PM
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Depending on which authority you rely on, the .38 Special was introduced either in 1899 or 1902. Does anyone know of a reliable source to confirm the true date of this cartridge's introduction?
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Old 11-19-2007, 09:37 PM
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Here is some history from the 1953 edition of the Philip B. Sharpe Complete Guide to Reloading.
"The first gun designed to handle the .38 Smith & Wesson Special was the Smith & Wesson Model 1902, round butt Military and Police Model. This cartridge was an improvement on the official army cartridge - the .38 Long Colt. Essentially it was an enlargement in proportion to the .32 Smith & Wesson Long, the bullet being in the same proportion as this extremely accurate smaller caliber handgun. In order to bring about this balance, it was necessary to increase the bullet weight to 158 grains, retaining the the same shape as the .32 S&W Long."
That might be more than you wanted to know, but it's interesting to learn how some of the cartridges were developed.

deanc
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Old 11-19-2007, 09:54 PM
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"Cartridges of the World" by Barnes states 1902. "History of Smith and Wesson" by Jinks infers 1899. I own a M&P 1st Model of 1899 stamped 38 S&W Special factory lettered shipped in Feb 1902. I would assume the cartridge was developed prior to that. I'll go with Mr Jinks.
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Old 11-20-2007, 05:26 AM
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I think Mr. Jinks would probably know what he is talking about.

deanc
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Old 11-20-2007, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by pace40:
"Cartridges of the World" by Barnes states 1902. "History of Smith and Wesson" by Jinks infers 1899. I own a M&P 1st Model of 1899 stamped 38 S&W Special factory lettered shipped in Feb 1902. I would assume the cartridge was developed prior to that. I'll go with Mr Jinks.
I'm with Roy Jinks on this one. 1899.

Scott
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Old 11-20-2007, 08:23 PM
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Thank you. I appreciate the responses.
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Old 02-06-2008, 08:19 PM
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Per "U.S. Cartridges and Their Handguns" Charles R. Suydam 1979, page 172.

"First chambered in the First Model Hand Ejector in 1899, the .38 Smith & Wesson Special cartridge was first made by UMC early in 1899; cartridges were sent to Smith & Wesson for trial in May of that year. Original loads were of 18 grains of black powder, with an overall cartridge length of 1.570". In June, 1899, the powder charge was changed to 21.5 grains; bullet weight was presumably the 158 grain still used. The first smokeless loadings were made in September, 1899, probably 3.6 grains of Bullseye. In 1908 the overall length was reduced to 1.560"; when the present nominal length of 1.550" was adopted is not known."
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:02 AM
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I think it's safe to say the .38 S&W Special was developed in 1899 but not available for public sale until 1902 when the first revolver chambered in .38 Special was available to the public. (or Government)
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Old 02-07-2008, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngelCD:
I think it's safe to say the .38 S&W Special was developed in 1899 but not available for public sale until 1902 when the first revolver chambered in .38 Special was available to the public. (or Government)
No, it is safe to say the .38 Special was offered for sale in 1899. The article , which I did not quote in it's entirety goes on to say the first 1899 Military & Police revolver chambered for the .38 Spl. was serial number 8. The cartridge was part and parcel of the M&P model from the very beginning, not 3 years later.
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:27 PM
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Whatever!! Relax yourself, really.... it was my opinion. Even though it's hard to tell someone's intent in a post I feel you were being hostile. Relax OK, this is a discussion not a contest.
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Old 02-07-2008, 09:40 PM
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While I have no idea when the .38 Special was introduced, I am suprised it was loaded with black powder. Shows you how much I know.
I was looking at a McLendon Hardware Co.(Waco,TX) catalog from around 1926 and lo and behold there is 158 gn black powder Remington's for $29.00 per thousand.
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Old 02-08-2008, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngelCD:
Whatever!! Relax yourself, really.... it was my opinion. Even though it's hard to tell someone's intent in a post I feel you were being hostile. Relax OK, this is a discussion not a contest.
The original poster asked for an authoritative source for introduction of the .38 Special. I gave him page and paragraph from one of the most highly resoected authorities in the field of cartridge collecting and history of same. You expressed an opinion based on what? You were wrong and got called on it. Grow up.

If you had the balls to show an E-mail in your profile I would have dtold you this off the board.
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Old 02-09-2008, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
The original poster asked for an authoritative source for introduction of the .38 Special. I gave him page and paragraph from one of the most highly resoected authorities in the field of cartridge collecting and history of same. You expressed an opinion based on what? You were wrong and got called on it. Grow up.

If you had the balls to show an E-mail in your profile I would have dtold you this off the board.
Now that's funny, you telling me to grow up....
Why don't you stop hijacking this thread with your petty showmanship. I don't mind being wrong about something that happened over 100 years ago. Like I said, this is a discussion, not a contest. Say what you want because I won't answer your childish posts any longer.

BTW, I didn't even know my email was not available in my profile although I don't usually make it a point to make it public because I don't want any SPAM sent to my account.

Have a nice day...
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Old 02-14-2008, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GST:
While I have no idea when the .38 Special was introduced, I am suprised it was loaded with black powder. Shows you how much I know.
I was looking at a McLendon Hardware Co.(Waco,TX) catalog from around 1926 and lo and behold there is 158 gn black powder Remington's for $29.00 per thousand.
This is off topic, but the price caught my eye. I ran it through the CPI inflation adjustor and $29 in 1926 is about $296 in 2006 (more like $305 today). Even with the recent surge in ammo and component prices, you can still get 1000 rounds of .38 Special for about $220 today (CCI Blazer). So much for the "good old days"!
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Old 09-06-2008, 08:04 AM
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Another early US Cartridge Company .38 Special offering.


Along with a Peters product.
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Old 09-09-2008, 08:34 AM
Andy Taylor Andy Taylor is offline
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Smith17-You sure have a nice ammo box collection. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 09-09-2008, 06:30 PM
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Hi, all. Not to add fuel to the fire, but if not already mentioned, as far as authoritative sources: I have in front of me the NRA's "The Basics of Pistol Shooting," copyright 1991, that was given to me by an NRA instructor several months ago. There is a section that describes different cartridges which says, on page 13: ".38 Special--Introduced by Smith & Wesson about 1902." So I guess that they used the word "about" to provide some wiggle room. However, on S&W's web site, they have the following text regarding the Model 10: "The .38 S&W Special +P and the revolver to fire it was first introduced by Smith & Wesson in 1899. It has become one of the most recognized handgun/caliber combinations in the world." So I guess the authoritative answer is "1899," or "about 1902." But then again...
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Old 10-06-2008, 02:15 PM
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smith17 do you have any idea what the time period was when Rem went to this style box?

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Old 12-22-2008, 01:52 PM
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I always liked the Colt projectiles. maybe I just fell for the hype but it always seemed to me that the heavy for caliber, flat nosed Super Police loads they had would be better stoppers than the traditional round nosed projectiles.

Although if I recall correctly from an old Gun Digest article those projectiles were actually designed by Remington Peters for Colt.
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  #21  
Old 12-23-2008, 07:50 AM
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Interesting discussion in that so many people interested in S&W never acquire the books, and give credence to other publications that are so far removed from the historical data source.

The 38 Special was introduced to the public in 1899. It was on the market and available.

Perhaps a copy of a letter on a Model 1899 will help:
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Old 01-26-2009, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TRanger:
Depending on which authority you rely on, the .38 Special was introduced either in 1899 or 1902. Does anyone know of a reliable source to confirm the true date of this cartridge's introduction?
I have a 1990 Shooter's Bible with an article by Stanley W Trzoniec that puts the date at 1899.
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Old 01-26-2009, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by handejector:
Interesting discussion in that so many people interested in S&W never acquire the books, and give credence to other publications that are so far removed from the historical data source.

The 38 Special was introduced to the public in 1899. It was on the market and available.

Perhaps a copy of a letter on a Model 1899 will help:
It just does not get any more definitive than this.
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  #24  
Old 03-07-2009, 02:27 PM
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This offering by the US Cartridge Company might be one of the first available for domestic use. It is the first box I have seen, before 1911, which does not specify for what guns it is intended. Usually these boxes state For use in S&W .38 Special revolvers or Made expressly for the .38 Caliber New Military Revolver. With labels on all four sides and top intact, this one only specifies the manufacturer, caliber and powder. No indication of the lead weight.
Ed
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1911, bullseye, cartridge, colt, ejector, hand ejector, jinks, military, model 10, nra, projectiles, remington, round butt, smith and wesson, umc

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