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  #1  
Old 01-15-2009, 06:43 AM
conchmariner conchmariner is offline
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Hello everyone. This is my first post, and I want to thank you all for a very informative forum.

I've read a few different topics on 44 mag recoil here and want to make sure I understand how different elements like ammo type/weight, barrel length and gun weigh contribute to recoil.

FWIW I shoot about 50 rounds a week with my NG 329, six of which are .44 Mag, the rest are .44 SP. The mag load I've been shooting is Hornady 300 grain which has a very powerful recoil in that gun.

Thanks, and I hope this isn't a redundant topic.
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  #2  
Old 01-15-2009, 06:43 AM
conchmariner conchmariner is offline
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Hello everyone. This is my first post, and I want to thank you all for a very informative forum.

I've read a few different topics on 44 mag recoil here and want to make sure I understand how different elements like ammo type/weight, barrel length and gun weigh contribute to recoil.

FWIW I shoot about 50 rounds a week with my NG 329, six of which are .44 Mag, the rest are .44 SP. The mag load I've been shooting is Hornady 300 grain which has a very powerful recoil in that gun.

Thanks, and I hope this isn't a redundant topic.
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  #3  
Old 01-15-2009, 08:27 AM
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Welcome to the forum. It sounds like you have a good plan of practice there. I'll bet that NG 329 does have some terrific recoil. I don't like shooting too many 300 grain slugs out of my N frame.
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  #4  
Old 01-15-2009, 09:49 AM
44forever 44forever is offline
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Recoil is a complicated subject but there are some rules of thumb. All other things being equal (and they almost never are):

The lighter the gun, the more felt recoil there will be.

The higher the velocity of a given load, the sharper the felt recoil will be.

Most shooters are bothered more by muzzle blast than by recoil.

For a given velocity, heavy bullets kick harder than light bullets.

There are two primary components of recoil -
1) rearward shove
2) upward muzzle flip
Muzzle flip is more disconcerting.

Longer barrels have less muzzle flip than short barrels.

Shorter barrels have more muzzle blast than longer barrels.

Longer barrels give more velocity than shorter barrels.
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  #5  
Old 01-15-2009, 04:52 PM
idahostreams idahostreams is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by conchmariner:
Hello everyone. This is my first post, and I want to thank you all for a very informative forum.

I've read a few different topics on 44 mag recoil here and want to make sure I understand how different elements like ammo type/weight, barrel length and gun weigh contribute to recoil.

FWIW I shoot about 50 rounds a week with my NG 329, six of which are .44 Mag, the rest are .44 SP. The mag load I've been shooting is Hornady 300 grain which has a very powerful recoil in that gun.

Thanks, and I hope this isn't a redundant topic.
+1 on what 44forever said. Also notice that grips make a huge difference; fingergrooves, sharp edges, etc. Most anything feels pretty good with mild loads but the heavier the load and the lighter the gun, the more important proper grips become
Julian
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  #6  
Old 01-15-2009, 05:31 PM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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44forever, great post! All I can say is shoot different loads and figure out which ones hurt how much? Then you'll know what you like.
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  #7  
Old 01-15-2009, 08:59 PM
Gun 4 Fun Gun 4 Fun is offline
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44 Magnum Recoil - Putting It All Together 44 Magnum Recoil - Putting It All Together 44 Magnum Recoil - Putting It All Together 44 Magnum Recoil - Putting It All Together 44 Magnum Recoil - Putting It All Together  
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After shooting my .475 Linebaugh with full power loads, the .44 seems pleasant

+100 on what 44forever said, very well put!
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  #8  
Old 01-16-2009, 06:17 AM
conchmariner conchmariner is offline
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Thanks for that very informative post 44forever.

OFT, I've had the same thought about shooting many 300 grain magnum loads in the NG 329. I asked my local gunsmith about it. Didn't seem to concern him, and S&W haven't come out with any caveats. I've been practicing with the 300 grain Hornadys since I read an article that rated that the best defense load for a .44 Magnum. I'll try to post the link if I can find it again.
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  #9  
Old 01-16-2009, 09:49 AM
Andy Taylor Andy Taylor is offline
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44 Magnum Recoil - Putting It All Together 44 Magnum Recoil - Putting It All Together 44 Magnum Recoil - Putting It All Together 44 Magnum Recoil - Putting It All Together 44 Magnum Recoil - Putting It All Together  
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Quote:
Originally posted by conchmariner:
Thanks for that very informative post 44forever.

OFT, I've had the same thought about shooting many 300 grain magnum loads in the NG 329. I asked my local gunsmith about it. Didn't seem to concern him, and S&W haven't come out with any caveats. I've been practicing with the 300 grain Hornadys since I read an article that rated that the best defense load for a .44 Magnum. I'll try to post the link if I can find it again.
I'm sure the 300 grainers are just fine, for the gun. It is you and your hand that will have to decide if it is worth it.
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  #10  
Old 01-16-2009, 01:48 PM
Pisgah Pisgah is offline
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If you do the math you can express recoil in any number of ways. That is scientific, and useful for comparisons.

But the fact is that recoil is almost purely a subjective thing. What will absolutely torture you will be mother's milk to me, and what will send me cringing and weeping away from the bench will be some other guy's idea of fun.

For me, almost any .44 magnum handgun is tolerable with almost any load, although some will be more comfortable than others. Weight is not as big a deal to me as the grip. Single action or double, I want it smooth and not too big -- I want to be able to really get a full grip on it, and my hands are no bigger than average. What works for anyone else will undoubtedly be different.
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  #11  
Old 01-16-2009, 02:05 PM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by conchmariner:
I've been practicing with the 300 grain Hornadys since I read an article that rated that the best defense load for a .44 Magnum. I'll try to post the link if I can find it again.
Against people, or polar bears? It would take some serious convincing to make me think a 300 gr. bullet was ideal for protection against two leggers. I use 165 gr. bullets in mine, and feel anything over 180 gr. is needlessly heavy, although there are some slightly heavier loads that are still very good.
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  #12  
Old 01-16-2009, 07:25 PM
Joni_Lynn Joni_Lynn is offline
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The thing that's helped me the most to control recoil is grips that properly fit my hand and lots of practice.
Good luck with your new S&W and welcome to the forum.
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  #13  
Old 01-17-2009, 07:17 AM
conchmariner conchmariner is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by flop-shank:
Quote:
Originally posted by conchmariner:
I've been practicing with the 300 grain Hornadys since I read an article that rated that the best defense load for a .44 Magnum. I'll try to post the link if I can find it again.
Against people, or polar bears? It would take some serious convincing to make me think a 300 gr. bullet was ideal for protection against two leggers. I use 165 gr. bullets in mine, and feel anything over 180 gr. is needlessly heavy, although there are some slightly heavier loads that are still very good.
Here's the link (hope it works):

http://ammo.AR15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm
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  #14  
Old 01-17-2009, 07:43 AM
Wyatt Earp Wyatt Earp is offline
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I strongly disagree with Dr Gary Roberts on his "choice" of .44 Magnum defensive ammo.

Any cartridge that offers this kind of ballistic performance:

Performance data for the Hornady 300gr XTP in bare gelatin:
5" 629: vel=1120 f/s, pen=20+", RD=0.71", RL=0.67", RW=299.5 gr
16" 1894P: vel=1338 f/s, pen=20+", RD=0.71", RL=0.59", RW=291.5 gr

is NOT an appropriate self defense cartridge. 20+ inches of penetration is just too much when it comes to shooting someone in a crowded environment.

Also, get a shot timer and have someone time your splits (time between shots) when shooting .44 Magnums through your Night Guard. Then do the same when shooting a proper .44 Special defensive load.

The difference is not inconsequential and if you think that it doesn't matter because with a Magnum "one shot is all it takes", think again.
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  #15  
Old 01-17-2009, 08:17 AM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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O.K., Conchmariner, here are my thoughts. Others may disagree, that's fine with me. Ultimately you will have to decide what to put in you .44. I went to the link you provided, skimmed through much of it and mulled over the .44 magnum data the site provided. I carry a 5" 629, and have test fired different loads into Perma-Gel, which is a 10% ballistic gelatin substitute. I feel that it gives close enough test results to 10% gel to make apples to apples comparisons with results I find online. All of my .44 magnum test results, my own 165 gr. JHP handload, Federal's 180 gr. JHP, Hornady's 180 gr. XTP/JHP, Winchester's 210 gr. Silvertip and Remington's 240 gr. SJHP, are available in this forum if you do a search. Only two loads did not overpenetrate, my 165 gr. JHP handload, and Federal 180 gr. JHP. I consider anything that penetrates over 16" an overpenetrator (actually anything over 14" gives me the creeps) and will not carry that load if something better is available. That 300 gr. Hornady penetrated over 20" (I'm guessing it penetrated through the testing midia and may have hit a backstop that further expanded the bullet) in the results posted on that site. If you are in a shooting situation and there is an innocent person standing behind your assailant, you will likely hit them after the bullet passes through the shootee. While the expanded diameter of that Hornady load was lauded as one of it's great attributes, my test results show that the Federal 180 gr. JHP was recovered with an average diameter as good, or better IIRC, and that was after throwing off useful secondary fragmentation. Also, do not let the weight of the 300 gr. Hornady beguile you into thinking it is the more powerful load. The 5" test gun they used yielded a velocity of 1120 fps and 836 fpe. while Federal 180s did 1515 fps/917 fpe from my 5" gun (which I suspect is a slow gun). While I don't think muzzle energy plays much of a role in stopping power in weaker handgun calibers, I am convinced that it most definately can and sometimes does in more powerful ones. Much of the energy that the 300 gr. Hornady packs will be dumped into whatever is behing the target after it overpenetrates. Not only is that energy wasted, but it has worked against you, because you have already payed the price for it in recoil. The Federal cartridge not only posseses a higher level of energy, but should stop somewhere between 10"-14" pen. thus depositing more, or all, of it's power into the target.

Last of all, I recall in a past conversation a S&W customer service rep saying that S&W considered 240 grs. the largest weight bullet that was not needlessly hard on their guns and the maximum that they recommended.
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  #16  
Old 01-17-2009, 01:06 PM
conchmariner conchmariner is offline
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Wyatt Earp and flop-shank, I'm with you all on this. I haven't done near the amount of shooting and/or testing that you have, but remember I only shoot six rounds a week max of the Hornady 300 gr Magnum for personal training purposes only (I've also mentioned my concerns about the effects on the gun of shooting such a heavy weight bullet - I may email S&W about this even though a local gunsmith assured me there shouldn't be a problem).

My primary defense round is indeed a Hornady 180 gr XTP/JHP in .44 Special or Winchester Silvertip also in .44 Special for the reasons you all stated.

Thanks to both of you for the detailed info. This really is a great place to learn.
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  #17  
Old 01-18-2009, 06:28 AM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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You are most welcome! Just make sure you keep hanging around this place. Good luck!
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