Just for kicks, say this is 1949 instead of
2009 and I am carrying an M&P 4".
What would have been the best vintage load?

148gr Wads- no turning them backwards
158gr LRN
200gr Super Police

.....Alright nobody laugh, my pre Model 15 has
some of the last 200 gr Super Police loads made by WW in it now.

Just for kicks, say this is 1949 instead of
2009 and I am carrying an M&P 4".
What would have been the best vintage load?

148gr Wads- no turning them backwards
158gr LRN
200gr Super Police

.....Alright nobody laugh, my pre Model 15 has
some of the last 200 gr Super Police loads made by WW in it now.

I'd use the 148 wadcutter.

The wadcutter

__________________
Formerly know as Lucky Derby

148gr. WC, hands-down. Put those Super Police loads in a display case somewhere. They were a bad idea in 1949, are no better now.

Wads are a seriously good defensive load, even now. Not the best, but a good niche load for the recoil sensitive. The others are useful for nothing IMO.

Yup, I'd also have to go with the wadcutters.

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195th Session FBINA

What about the 4th choice? A 158gr lead semi-wadcutter.

I would rather use wadcutters, but SWC is a good choice and better for use in a speedloader.

I'll stay with the trend. Of those W/C.

I assume you are referring to factory loads and not handloads. In which case, the 158 grn. LRN was about the best of the choices you offer. It was certainly the load most likely to have been used by law enforcement in those days. The 148 grain wadcutters were target loads and simply did not have enough velocity to penetrate reliably and especially if they hit heavy clothing or auto bodies. Since none of these loads have a bullet design that would lead to reliable expansion, penetration was about the only plus available in those loads.

Actually the old medium velocity wadcutter was not a bad defense load. Back in "the old days" they could be had in both low and medium velocity. The 158 RNL made clean, neat, small holes in bodies and tended to bounce off heads. The old NYPD stakeout squad once shot a guy in the head 5 times with those and he walked to the ambulance. None penetrated the skull. If you could get the medium velocit wadcutters I would go with that for sure.

158 LRN-HV!

Speed kills.

Good shooting.

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Good shooting.

Not so. I've tested target level wadcutters and will tell you that they penetrate very deep with boring regularity. They also track very straight and seem to penetrate to the same depth whether heavy clothing is present or not. Jim Cirillo said RNL was awful, leaving ice pick-like wounds, but that wadcutters made full caliber holes that "let the blood out and the air in". RNL is probably the worst shape for a defensive bullet there is. I'll also add that Jim tested bullets against auto bodies and found that bullets with a rounded ogive glanced off when fired at angles that didn't deflect bullets with a sharp shoulder.

Aother vote for the wadcutter.

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Parson Colt, the preacher's kid

The wife decided it was time for a new griddle and I decided the old one would make a fun target. It was 1/8" thick metal (it rusted after being shot so it wasn't aluminum). The 38 Special 158 grn round nosed Blazers fired from my 2" Model 60 punched through it like a .22 through a beer can, really peeling back some pretty impressive holes. I have read all the stories about 38's bouncing off windshields and car doors etc. They may be true, but I gained a new found respect for .38 special target loads.

__________________
"Give me Liberty..."

The apparent truth about handgun bullet performance is that it will always work great on the good guys or on things you don't want penetrated (like a car door being used for cover in a fight). Conversely, the best ammo we can bring to a fight seems to be either lousy or mediocre when used on bad guys that need shooting very badly. I've seen several calibers and rounds that we'd never consider using to defend ourselves kill an innocent victim graveyard dead on the spot and have also seen excellent rounds used on bad guys that didn't work worth spit.

I am not laughing. If I had some of the more recent production factory 200 gr.loads in shooting quantities, I would probably do the same. Its NOT a bad load for soft target defense.

I'd guess the medium speed wadcutter. It would have about the speed of the lead RN load, but more impact.

The late Maj. George Nonte commented once on that load, but it had already been discontinued. It apparently never got much publicity as anything but a target load.

It would lack the aerodynamic qualities of the RN, but at average gunfight distances, that would hardly be a factor.

Anyone who has read Keith's, "Sixguns" knows the effect of the wadcutter on small game, vs. the RN load. That would presumably carry over to larger targets.

Does anyone know during which years this medium speed wadcutter was loaded?

T-Star

I'd be a spoiler & go w/ the 38/44 158 rnl load

I'd take a file and flatten the points on the 200 grain bullets and use those.

The OP says you have an M&P. I would be very reluctant to fire 38/44 loads in a K frame .38 from that era.

__________________
Formerly know as Lucky Derby

Some Blanks will scare the heck out of em!!!

__________________
Navy Seabees "can Do"

Of the 3 you listed I would pick the WC. If I could add another it would be a 158gr SWC like mentioned above.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I was wondering how popular Elmer Kieth's 173gr SWC was at the time? I've read about his experiments with it, but I wasn't sure if it was used by much of the public.

Groo here
Keith [hats off please]
noted that the 200gr produced more impact
than the 158gr and the wc target load worked well on small game but was not accurate at longer ranges.

I'd go for those big, blunt, slow moving 200 grainers. I wouldn't want the other guys on the fedora squad laughing at me for carrying sissy target loads.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

The 200 gr. (filed flatpoint). I believe Col. Askins reported in his book "Unrepentant Sinner" he knocked a German soldier flat with one shot, but it didn't kill him.

Keithcarter
NRA Life

Apparently sticking with factory loadings....

Just when were SWC loads generally available? Sure, you could reload with them from way back, but whenever I see old advertisements, ammo boxes, etc. I see: 158gr LRN almost exclusively, with the 148gr WC a distant second....no third.

I remember my uncle may years ago (he was a federal agent) showing me his duty bullet, the 200gr super police in 38 sepc. He shot two bad guys with it and he said it put them down and worked fine.

1) from my observations, the 158gr lrn projectiles that are loaded in the aluminum blazer casings seems to be hardened to prevent lead fouling (eg: I can't make more than a shallow mark when I try to scratch them with my fingernail); they are harder than lrn's made by American Eagle, Magtech, Remington, and some batches of Winchester

2) I recently bought 2 boxes of the blazer stuff and the projectiles seem to be seated deeper in the casings (158 lrn's a tad and 125 +p tmj's a considerable amount); me thinks they have less powder and using the tightened space under the projectile to boost pressure to attain their relative velocities

forgot to state my choices

1) loaded in cylinder would be 148gr lead wadcutters

2) speedloaders or speed strips would be 158gr lrns (I can't get target wadcutters to reload quick-n-easy due to the very sharp shoulders on the necks of the casings)

I would go with semi-wadcutters in the speedloaders/speedstrips, if I wasn't using a second gun for a New York reload.

They are all three miserable but if my feet were held to the fire,I'd take the 158rnl.Most fixed sight 38's are sighted for it and that can mean a lot.

As far as the great wonders of the wc and swc,a lot of that is overblown.They make a nice clean cut in paper and cardboard which may account for a lot of the exaggerated claims however I've been present in the medical examiner's office during a lot of post shooting examinations and I doubt you could tell the holes apart.

Then, they loaded full velocity wadcutters as well as the lighter wadcutter load still made. I think I'd go with that.

Or, use a bigger caliber.


T-Star

My dad has his old S&W Military and Police 5"
loaded with some old Remington Super Police 200 grainers. We have wanted to see if it would penetrate the skull of a large boar. After catching a 175lb feral hog, he shot it between the eyes and the bullet penetrated. Hog flopped over dead. No real difference over 158 LRN though.

I cant explain it, but he uses either a 44 SPl triple lock or the M&P 38 and has more hogs die
quicker from the 38 than the 44. The 44 is generally loaded with 246 LRN and the .38 with Mexican Aguila 158 LRN. He has had 3 occassions where the hogs were only momentarily nocked out with head shots from the 44 and would wake up about the time you were getting the "dead" hog out.

My 36 Chief's Special made in the 70s shoots them to point of aim for some reason. Velocity from the snub is right under 600 fps.
I get 630 fps from a 4" K38.

I have some cast 200 grainers for reloading from the lyman cast that duplicates the factory load. Loading them up to 675 fps, I took them to the dump and found that they bouce off water heaters, stoves, and a/c window units. If fired straight in, they make a gaping hole but if fired to any angle they just bounce.