Thanks.

Thanks.

The accumulated wisdom says either a load of #00 or #1 buckshot is the best.

Any brand or pellet count preferences?

#4 Buck is my favorite. High pellet count with a .27" diameter.
Many LEA's go with it, and have for decades.
00 is .33", but the pellet count is significantly lower- like 1/3 of #4 Buck in many shells.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I buy either #3 buck or #4 buck. Years ago I assisted with an evaluation to help determine if our guards were better served carrying 12ga, folding stock, 870's or M3 Grease Guns. 35 gallon grease drums were used as targets from 10 to 100 yards. You would be surprised how many pellets will still penetrate a steel drum at 80 yds.

Right now my house guns is a 20 gauge. My wife and daughter find it less intimidating to use than a 12 gauge and I don't think there is any practice difference at house ranges. My longest possible in-house shot is 28', and most realistic is 8'-12'. In those ranges the shot column does not open too much at all.

I have #4 and #1 buck loaded in mine, though my first round is a 3 1/2" bb in lead (goose load). My kids rooms are across the house and over penetration is not acceptable.

If the first warning shot (to the face) doesn't elicit compliance then I want the buckshot.

No. Four Buck is actually .24" diameter...

Any load of buckshot in 12- or 20-ga is pretty good. Pattern your gun so you know what shoots best, but if you find a good deal on something, might want to grab it.

I picked up a case of Wolf #00 12ga for a song last year, and got my wife a half-case of Federal #4 20ga for a song with a tune.

Two mistakes people make with defensive loads:
1) Birdshot. Yes, it can be lethal, but will often lack penetration at any more than conversational distance. Use slugs or buckshot.

2) Loading multiple types of ammo. Some folks will do buck-buck-slug-buck ... etc. Pick one load, fill the mag tube with it, and if you want options, put them on a sidesaddle or butt-cuff. I don't want to wonder what the next shell in my gun is.

zercool,
Given my other post above, this is going to sound nit picky, but I have never seen a .20 gauge load of No. Four Buck. I've seen No. Three Buck and even No. Two Buck loaded in the .20 gauge, but never No. Four Buck. Which load from Federal did you find loaded with No. Four Buckshot?

I ask because I do a lot of coyote hunting with my .12 gauges with No. Four Buck and recently my wife has become interested in hunting with me. She has a .20 gauge and I have been considering which loads I am going to pattern for her hunting.

Plus 100 in my mind but I've changed over from a pump gun to a Remington 11-87 because it's proven to be just as reliable and it is much easier to practice with.

I stand corrected. I would've sworn up and down it was #4, but just went and checked - it is #3.

I reckon 20 #3 pellets would do a fair job on a 'yote, though...

I always liked Winchester OOO buck whenever I could find it. As I recall, I'd lose one pellet compared to OO, but they'd be bigger.

Back in the '70s I know that either Remington or Winchester - maybe both - were offering a #4 Buck loading in their 20ga line up but this may have only been offered to Law Enforcement.

I know there was a point in time that several Agencies around the Country were considering having 20ga guns in place of the 12ga because many of the female and for that matter the smaller male applicants weren't able to "qualify" with the 12ga. In the '60s many Departments still had height and sex requirements. I knew several old timers who fired their "Qualification" rounds with one hand. I know that there was a time when most departments in this area simply dropped the "Qualification" requirements for the shotgun all together.

Lee got the pellet count vs. the caliber transposed is all. The #4 Buck count in most 2 3/4" is 27. While the 00 is typically 9. Personally, I run the #4 Buck in the house.

Thanks. I'll probably stick to 00 buckshot in 2 3/4 nine pellet count since there seem to be a lot of options there. Have you tried Remington Reduced Recoil loads?

The Remington Reduced Recoil rounds amazed me the first time I shot them out of an 870. The recoil was very light and they patterned very well. I was shooting the 8 pellet 00 buckshot load. I have been using this load in my 870 for close to 10 years now. They do have problems in some semi auto shotguns though. I think they are a very good option if you are not using a semi auto.

For an 'in house' gun I use #4 shot (not buckshot) loaded in the mag and an additional 6 00 buckshot in a holder attached to the stock of an 18" barrel Mossberg 500. Top in-house range seldom exceeds 20 feet, #4 shot is a formatible stopper at that range and lessens the danger of over penetration and going through interior walls endangering other family members. If I have to reload (improbable) in an in-house situation, my preference would then be the 00 buckshot on the stock.

I've heard birdshot does well for home defense. Fewer problems with over penetration through sheet rock. Don't won't to hit any innocents.

I've seen more than one failure to stop occur when someone wearing heavy winter clothing was hit with a full load of Bird Shot. The individual pellets simply don't carry enough energy and what little they do carry goes away very quickly. Buck Shot as in "00" just carries too much energy for use inside a house. That's why I choose to use the #4 Buck, a compromise but a good one in my mind.

That's why I have mine loaded with 9 pellet 00 buck. I just heard the birdshot was good. I guess it isn't though.

One needs to realize that birdshot comes in different sizes. Larger sizes such as BB might give reasonable performance where something like 8 1/2 shot will yield poor performance. It's moot to me since I use an AR-15 for home defense. Occasionally I have the Ithaca 87 out at night. I keep it loaded with Foster slugs.

There is a great podcast on defensive shotguns at proarms.podbean.com .

+1

It's amazing how much alike we think.....

Winchester's Super X, 2 & 3/4-inch number one buckshot is my choice. Patterns best for me.

I just parted with my Ithaca 37 12guage, short barrel. Yes I gave it to my girlfriend for Valentines Day! She wanted something a little more effective than her .22lr Beretta that her dad gave her.

She liked the Remington 2 3/4 In,9 pellet 00 buck-reduced recoil, over the three or 4 other rounds she tried, which were standard 2 3/4 inch rounds that I had laying around. Her second and third shots were better with the reduced recoil rounds

Somewhere along the line I read, and with my senior memory I could be wrong that #1 buck was a better choice. It could have been from an FBI report or something but I seem to recall that it said you got all the effect as 00 buck but not the wall penetration that so many are concerned about. Anyone remember the source?

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Why duck?? It's a 9mm!

Fiasconva, I believe that is what Ayoob says in that podcast that I linked too in my previous post.

Wyatt, the AR is a no-brainer for me. Mine is all A1 and I've been using M-16A1s for 21 years. I started as a 17 year old grunt, and that rifle just feels like home. I also feel that the 55 gr. bullet I use is better suited to an urban environment and a 30 rd. magazine will allow me to think about fighting as opposed to keeping the gun running by constantly topping off a shotgun. Shotguns are great, but they are also very cerebral weapons.

The advantage of #1 buck is that you get the most actual weight of shot of all the various buckshot loads. Since the velocities are all about the same, #1 gives you the most upclose energy delivery.

Those thinking that any particular shot size turns into pixie dust after passing through drywall are sadly mistaken. You should also remember it's called birdshot for a reason. Human intruders aren't birds.

I use the same 00 Buck in my Mosssberg 500 and the Claymores; just to be consistent. I keep the Mossberg in "Home Ready" condition; an empty chamber, safety off and trigger pulled, so working the slide loads the first round and I'm ready to fire with the safety already off. An added benefit of keeping the shotgun in Home Ready condition is that it is safer, as nothing is in the chamber and you have to cycle it to ready it for firing.
In the event there is an intruder, cycling the action makes an unmistakable and fearful sound. Everybody knows that sound, and few want to confront the source of that sound, thus leaving may be the desirable choice for the badguy.
I load the magazine tube in this manner; slug, buck, buck, slug, buck & buck, thus when I work the slide, the first & second shells are buck, then slug, etc. I have a Surefire light in the forend and a 6-round sidesaddle on the left side. A little heavier than I like, but the accessories can become real necessities at night and in the event more ammo is needed.

I use 00 Buck and slugs for terminal performance and to take care of the "chicken-chasin' coyotes that frequent our yard and farm.

Thanks for all the thoughts guys. I like your "Home Ready" idea beemerrider.

Just a few more comments on the AR to back up what flop-shank said.

First off, I know this is a shotgun thread and I am not going to say this to start a poopstorm one way or the other. But since we are talking about long guns for home defense, I'm going to throw out my rationale for others to read, think, adapt all or some, or dismiss.

I am very, very comfortable handling both shotguns and ARs. I am a long time sporting clays shooter using both pump and semi auto Remingtons, so their manual of arms is second nature. At the same time my involvement in NRA Highpower and tactical carbine competition and training have also made the AR's manual of arms to be second nature.

Compared to a shotgun, an M4-style AR is lighter, easier to maneuver around rooms, holds a lot more ammo, it's easier to reload when the time comes, recoils a lot less (so that repeat shots are easier), and can be aimed a lot more precisely.

On the subject of aiming, a shotgun MUST be aimed at in-house room distances. You may not need to use sights, but you definitely need to aim. If you don't think so, go an pattern your chose shotshell at CQB distances and tell us how wide the shot pattern disperses at the target. That pattern, however, will never be as tight as a single .224" bullet and that might be important when precise shot placement might be needed.

Any defensive load worth having in a rifle or a shotgun will penetrate several layers of modern home building materials. If you do not think so, go to the box o' truth website and review their tests. Shotguns loaded with buck are no better than an AR loaded with FMJ, PSP, or match HP bullets from 55 to 75 grains. Shotguns loaded with slugs are one of the worst overpenetrators known to man.

So in the end, either one will do the job. Each one has its pluses and minuses. For me, the AR carbine's plusses and minuses outweigh those of a shotgun equally equipped.

Your mileage may vary. This opinion not valid in all states. Void where prohibited.

One advantage that the shotgun has over the AR is power. Probably the most effective fight stopper any of us have is the 12 ga. rifled slug. When I fired a Winchester 2 3/4" 1 oz. foster slug into Perma-Gel the sideways expansion of the gel broke the homemade table that the block was sitting on. We're talking split 2x4s and sheared drywall screws. At the same time, the 5.56 M193 cartridge is definately no slouch. A friend of mine literally shot a man's arm off with two closely placed shots when he was in Vietnam.

Also, FWIW, the M-1 carbine, when loaded with hollowpoints, is reputed to be a very effective close quarters weapon. The M-1 carbine was the M-4 of it's day and is beautifully suited to smaller statured, recoil intolerant shooters.

I appreciate the AR info as I'm interested in the M&P 15 (like a lot of others seem to be at the moment).

This is a very detailed and interesting link from another site. I hope it is acceptable to refer to other forums. If not, i apologize.

Buckshot terminal performance

That is correct, in the larger sizes of 2, 4, and 5. Buckshot is not necessary. Keep in mind the ranges we are discussing are measured in feet, not yards. 000, 00, #1, or #4 buckshot will easily penetrate double dry wall. I've had #1 buckshot penetrate completely through the thickest part of a 150 lbs deer at 30 yards.

Thanks for the link. The full power Winchester foster slug is what I use in my 20" Ithaca Deerslayer and the test results are consistent with mine. I got 16" penetration in Perma-Gel and serious expansion. I also was happy to see results for Remington Express 9 pellet 00 and that's what I have in my 20" 870.

That is a good site. Especially relevant I thought was this quote about using heavy bird shot..."Consideration of this load should be limited to an application where an engagement is guaranteed to be very close range and overpenetration is a significant and unacceptable risk." That sounds to me like an exact description of shotgun use for self defense in the typical house or appartment.

Also intersting that it takes 16.5 inches of gel to stop a #1 buck.

Classic IWBA/Fackler school of thought regarding penetration was that 18 inches or more of gelatin penetration was what one wanted to see. That leaves a great many shotgun loadings coming up short. Remember, gelatin doesn't take into account bones, skin, the differing texture of organs, etc. Just something to think about. Shrug.

Varmint loads in an AR or a .357 Sig auto with 125 gr Gold Dots (good enough for the Air Marshalls) might be the best choices if someone is worried about over penetration. (Which won't get *me* killed, but under penetration might. Eh.)

Deer are usually killed with either 00 buck or slugs, and don't always go down with one hit. While a deer has a different central nervous system than a man, body weight is often similar.

I did a lot of deer hunting with dogs in Eastern NC for many years, was a member of two clubs, and saw literally hundreds of deer that had been killed with buckshot, slugs not allowed. I have killed many with a shotgun myself. The consensus in that geographical area was that #1 buckshot was the most efficient killer, and that was the most commonly used by far.

I stoke mine with #00 buck based on the belief that the odds of the pellets hitting an innocent bystander are lower than the the odds of needing the stopping power combined with the assumption that I would typically use the load to also defend others, which negates the virtue of self-sacrifice since there are innocent bystanders other than myself depending on the stopping power.

Your belief may vary, but that is mine, for now.

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NRA Life Member

Not to pick an argument with anyone but I happen to agree with those who are critical of birdshot as a choice for home defense.I remember one well known tactical trainer who stated that it's chosen only by the very naive.

Before anyone explains to me what birdshot can do,I've been doing pattern tests,penetration tests and so forth with a variety of shotguns,loads and chokes for quite some time.

I have a couple of 10 gauge magnums and with the idea that the additional mass might make up the difference,I tried a heavy load (2 1/4 oz) of BB shot.At 20 feet,I was very unimpressed in what I saw as man stopping potential.At 10 feet,I felt much better but my confidence would take a nose dive if he were wearing heavy clothing.

There is a lot of concern about over penetration with some but I never hear anyone address the fact that your adversary doesn't give a rat's behind about over penetration and HIS SHOTS are a definite danger to innocent bystanders.As long as he still functions,everyone around is at risk.Also I might add that you will likely be tipping the scales to his advantage if his shots can reach you but yours can't reach him.

Another point is simply this...Do you honestly believe that he or they will stand in the middle of the living room in order to make things easy for you?

At 5 feet from the muzzle,birdshot would be awesome but who realistically expects circumstances to be so ideal for it?

www.tacticalshotgun.ca

go to shotgun terminal ballistics section for gelatin testing & synopsis...excellent info

living in an apartment, I tossle with this same scenario over-n-over again; I usually get mentally exhausted and just drop the idea & keep 2 revolvers loaded with .38 spl +p FBI load; currently I am having an older barrel cut for my shotty for HD work; as strange as it sounds, I'm thinking about 2 3/4" #2 steel or 3" #BB steel since 1) I have alot around for waterfowl hunting and 2) deer hunting with buckshot is not legal in my area of PA--buckshot in a 'non' buckshot territory hints toward 'tactical applications'

By all means get a long gun set up going and don't rely on handguns if you don't have to. I understand your concerns about living in an apartment and would order some #1 buck online if you can't find some in a local store. YMMV, but I'm unapologetic about keeping guns and ammo around that are weapons and nothing else. Needing one for self defense would make doing so selfexplainatory.

While I hate flogging a dead horse, Mythbusters did some gun stuff Wednesday night, including - shotgun loads!

The myth they were apparently testing was some pizza guy who got shot at with a shotgun. He flipped his pizza carrier and pizzas up to try and cover his body, and survived unharmed.

So they tested it.

From what looked like about 5 yards, a load of BIRDshot failed to penetrate three pizzas in boxes inside one of those insulated carriers. ONE pellet made it out, and I'd be willing to be that pellet wouldn't have made it through a coat.

Then they tried 00BUCK - all nine pellets punched through the carrier and pizzas without really slowing down.

Found it on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzVAnRWfweU

That's why Chicago invented the thick crust!
Three of those in cardboard, inside a styrofoam container can stop a 7.62 A/P!

I like a 20 gauge Youth 870 for home defense. It is so light I can shoot it one handed if I need the other hand to open a door. Number 3 Buck is about the largest shot you can buy easily or cheaply at Walmart or Academy and it should have plenty of power and penetration. The youth model stock also helps a little in manuevering in tight quarters.

My shotgun is loaded with 00 buck. I also keep a rifle handy. Over penetration is not a concern for me.

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too TOO young!!

I once knew a lawman who had been in a number of gunfights who insisted on 000 buck in his house shotgun.For those who don't know,these pellets are larger and heavier than 00 buck.

I just mentioned this to put things into perspective.

Those are some big balls in 000! As shot size gets larger good patterning becomes problematic. My 20" 870 (IC choked) patterns well with Remington express 9 pellet 00, but was spotty with Remington 000. As has been recommended, pattern your shotgun.

This should be a NON-ISSUE for you. The first and foremost purpose of a firearm is to be a weapon. Call it tactical if you like. It matters not. Sporting purposes are secondary.

You really should NOT compromise your choice of defensive ammo to appease appearances. Steel shot, no matter how heavy, will never outperform lead. Period. People are a lot stronger than geese.

If your shoot is good, using the most "tactical" gun and ammo won't matter. If your shoot is bad, using the most "Fudd" gun and ammo won't help you.