Really seriously good observation. It's easy to remember a sentence like, "Always be aware of your target and beyond." But it's another to understand the application of that principle in real life. Comments like that make this forum worthwhile. Helps me to make the important stuff real in my mind. Thanks, Dave.

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Not legal advice/solicitation

I have dispatched several car-struck deer (not hit by me) with 9mm-HP Corbon.

One shot back of head - instant dead.

Also one 80-90 lb. dog, injured and dieing. .44mag HP, one head shot dead.

As with any subject, shot-placemnt is the key.

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NRA Life
SASS# 77072

Interesting pics. Just about anything 38 Special and above will do the trick if shot placement is good.

I one shot stopped a 20 lb.ish woodchuck with a well placed shot from a .177 Benjamin Franklin pneumatic air rifle once. The incapacitation was just as fast as my killings with magnum revolvers, but the wombat hit with an air rifle just sort of rolled over on it's side like it had been hit with a tranquilizer, whereas the magnum victims locked up like they were in the electric chair.

What was the range on this kill?

Thanx,


T-Star

I shot a large male rott last year that charged my family while we were walking the back portion of the farm. Model 37 with the cheap Winchester 125 grain +p .38's. The neighbors had said there was one on the loose harassing his new calves.

I saw him about 75 yards away and whistled hoping to run him off. Opposite effect. It was slow motion from there. Ears back, hunched down and full speed. I wasn't going to wait for him to get too close since we had a 2 year old and an infant with no where to go.

At about 20 yards I touched one off single action and, to my surprise, hit about where I was aiming. He was coming head on and I caught hid just right of mid chest, taking out his front shoulder. He buckled, yelped and limped into the brush. We promptly went the other way. Don't know what happened to him, but my wife stated she was never so happy to see a gunin all her life!

I have been wondering about the same thing, I am out in the local parks quite often, and one day my Beagle was being harassed by 3
supposidely good shepherds, They were k nnocking her down with their mouths and nipping at her hind legs, Then one went after her in the excitement,,,, The owner pulled one away while my beagle was suspended by her head in the shepherds mouth, I was ready to shoot the dog, A moment later, My beagle was fine and unhurt and the owner of the 3 shepherds said that this would not have happened if MY dog was better trained, Then I wanted to shoot the owner,,, I usualy have a model 37 with HPs on me, Now I am thinking about the J frame 357.
Peter.

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Need 1/2 moon Chiefs special

pred-

If you're thinking about a J-frame .357, especially one of the really light ones, think instead about a Ruger SP-101 in .357. It will last longer, probably, and so will your hand after firing it.

I think that J-frame .357s were a serious mistake.

T-Star

I don't - I fired mine extensively with Magnum ammo and didn't find it to be all that abusive. Too bad it had the idiot-lock, or else I'd still have it.

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Now go make God proud...

Texas star, You are correct, the J frame airlights are brutal to shoot, I train with an all steel J frame 39, and only carry the airlight for long hikes.
I can muster 5 shots out of the "ouch" gun.
Peter

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Need 1/2 moon Chiefs special

Back in my (much) younger years (late 1970s), I worked for IRS and had a case where a taxpayer had withheld the social security tax and income taxes from his employees.... and then didn't turn them in to the Gov. When the employees filed their tax returns to get a refund, we said sorry, you didn't pay any taxes into the system. "Oh yes we did !!!"

Anyway, I went to the employers home after he refused to talk to me about it on the phone. As I pulled into the drive, a huge German Shepard jumped from the porch and headed straight for me. I made it back into the car and got my trusty cyanne pepper spray. I rolled down the window about 1/3 and that dog did his best to come through the window. About a 2 second spray in his mouth and eyes and the pooch jumped back and ran about 20 yards and flipped on his back and started to rub his eyes in desperation on the lawn. As soon as I was out of the car and headed for the porch...up jumps the dog and heads straight for me...but a little slower this time. I hold up the can of spray and he sees what I have in my hand and turns right around. He barked, but no more than that as I went to the door and knocked. No one was home, but I looked in the mail box, and low and behold....a bank statement !! I wrote down the bank name, got back in the car and found the nearest branch and popped a levy on the bank account. When he started bouncing checks, he called me to scheudle an appointment. Funny how that always seemed to get their attention. Anyway, I didn't have to shoot the dog, but I did get his total respect.

As Erich says...it's all about shot placement. In the 30 years I did in LE I saw a lot of LEOs who couldn't hit a injured animal in the correct spot to save their own lives let alone just put down a injured animal. I remember one state game agency wanting to go to .357 SIG or .40 S&W because their 9mms were not killing deer shot at 2'.. I will bet that if you put a 2" target dot on the forehead of a deer and tell one of these BoZos to hit it it would take them a mag full. I probably had to do a half a dozen animals and it never took more than one shot. Always tried for the forehead so the bullet would go down into the neck and not exit. Had to put down several head of injured or sick cows for neighbors and one round of .38 Super FMJ always did the trick.

As to dogs I have only shot two. One with a 12 ga. OO and one with a .223. The OO dog had just killed some more of my chickens and I caught it at about 35 yards going under the front gate of my farm. Put two pellets through the stock gate but hit him at least once because he yelped and never came back...and that was about the 4th time I had caught him but never had a good shot before that. He either decided there was easier pickings somewhere else or he died in a ditch somewhere. The .223 dog was again doing some chicken raiding...he dropped on the spot from a 63 grain Sierra SP.

Have had several friends shoot dogs. One had a 180 pound Great Dane attack dog closing on him. One round of .44 Magnum Glaser Safety Slug hit the dog in the shoulder blade. The round disitigrated as advertised pealing back a 12" secition of skin... Dog turned himself inside out and reversed direction in his own length and went scurring back to the owner. He lived after being patched up.

My other friend was jogging off duty with a 9mm Glock in a sock in his hand. A German Shepherd gurad dog from an auto pound broke through a fence and was closing fast when he was dropped on the spot with one round of JHP. It was a chest shot I believe. The owner came out, my friend id'd himself as a PO, the guy apologized and they dragged the dog back into the pound..

From all the stories I have read or people who had "close encounters" dogs have a very low pain tolerence...for that matter I know a few who missed their shots and the dogs just ran from the muzzleblast of the gun going off.

Somewhere I have a 1960s vintage article about hunting "Wild Dogs in Georgia". I guess at the time the state was overun with packs of wild dogs and this guy just loved to hunt them. His recommendation was to gut shoot the leader, usually the biggest dog there and when the Alpha dog was yelping and biting at the wound the others would mill around looking at the leader giving the guy more shots. His favorite gun was a drilling in double 12s with an 06 below. I can not remember what his favorite handgun was but I am thinking it was a 1911 .45.

Paco Kelly over on the LeverGuns Forum also has written extensively about shooting dogs...

Bob

Texas Star - 43 yards approximate, the coyote was beyond the chain link fenced in area to the rear of my house, I fired single action with my body braced against the house for steadiness. The 637 was on me and the only gun immediately handy, and I was suprised I hit him at range.

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William H. Smith

You did well! Thanks for sharing.

T-Star

Reading the local paper today...Hartford Current...there was an article about a big drug investidation. Two suspects turned a Rotti on several officers to try and make an escape over a fence. One of the officers shot at the charging dog hitting it in the leg...dog turned and ran away. Was found later and after an operation was fine.

One thing I have found over the years is that dogs that have a confrontation with the police and loose, if they survive are VERY reluctant to play that game again.

One of my partners in Probabtion/Parole was charged by two Pit Bulls during a home visit. He nuked the both of them with pepper spray..from that time on when he came for home inspections they would run in the bedroom and hide. All he would have to do is look at them and they would pee themselves.

Bob

I have a buddy who has a small ranch and has problems with feral dogs - all shapes and sizes. He knows I like handguns so he asked me what I thought would be the best weapon to use to eradicate a pack of the feral dogs. I surprised him when I said M-1 carbine and he surprised me when he said experience showed him that a 12 gauge with 00 Buck worked best. Experience trumps theory any day.

Regards,

Dave

I'm confident that a 10mm Auto Win STHP would do the trick on any dog. I recall a Shooting Times article in the late 80s in which the author shot a deer with the round. The description of what the round did was most impressive. If it can tear a deer up like that, I know it can do the same on a dog.

I'd say the same thing for any round originally designed for human interaction. If it'll kill a man, it'll kill a dog.

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Not legal advice/solicitation

I have never shot an attacking canine.....but I have put down a couple badly injured by automobiles. A Jennings J 22 did the deed -shot placed in the back of the head. I have used a .38 specila to turn out the lights on a few arrowed Javalina(Once the adrenaline is pumping nothing seems to die as hard as a javie) a 160SWC at about 800fps worked just fine traversing the head and chest from the front....then I met Mr Hardhead that I shot 4 times from the front and finished with a 5th shot to the atlas joint. I had picked up the wrong box of ammo- same bullet at about 650fps-it wasn't entering the skull just running along the bone under the skin. .22 magnums from a 5 inch barrel penetrate Javie skulls reliably-velocity seems to help perforate bone. Last week I finished off a auto hit deer.... with a mattock. I was carrying a .380 but didn't want to reveal it nor perform a technical violation by discharging it within 50 feet of the centerline of the road.

SuperMan,

That "Glock in a sock" guy wouldn't have been Tony Black would it? He's always been one of my favorite DPD guys and the inspiration for more stories than the law allows!

Anyone have a take on the possible implications of shooting a dog with hand-loaded ammo?

None. The odds of a necropsy being performed are slight, and the handloaded ammo issue may not be trivial in some political environments, but as a general rule would not even be admissible in a trial.

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NHI, 10-8.

I'd still prefer to use factory ammo, as it's usually better sealed.

T-Star

...we were shooting partners for many years...

Bob

I've avoided this topic for a bit,but since it keeps growing I'd figure I'd share a couple of experiences,in early 2002 I responded to a 911 call from dispatch,I had a resident call in who claimed she had a rabid dog at her residence,she had explained to the dispatcher that she had shot the dog several times with 22 rifle and it was still on the premises tearing up jack.Upon arrival at the scene,my partner approached the front door of the residence to get a description and location of the dog,the lady answered the door with Marlin model 60 22lr and said she had a Rott that was rabid foaming at the mouth and that she had emptied the Marlin into him.It was her personal dog,and she requested that we destroy it.I was back at the cruiser getting the 870 and switching ammo from 00 to #4 buck,my partner was carrying a Ruger p-89 at the time with 124 Golddots.We got the Streamlights out of the cruiser and began to track the Rott that she described as being around a 150lbs,we found a pretty good blood trail leading up to were the canine had crashed,he was facing us with eyes closed and appeared to be dead at first sight,wrong!He charged my partner and he executed a double-tap to the chest,and the Rott went down,I was following closely with the 870,in a split second the Rott was back on his feet and I then dispatched him with 4 rounds of #4 buck at less than 20 feet.Upon examination of this Rott he had sustained 11 .22 rounds,2 9mm rounds and 4 rounds of #4 buck from my patrol 870 before total incapacitation.The dog was sent off for testing and was positive for rabies.Just goes to show you almost all the initial rounds fired were fatal but not enough to effect the extremely large Rott until the 12 ga. was utilized.
Just this past week while hunting on my uncles farm during general firearms season for deer.We have a large problem with coyotes and feral dogs chasing deer.This past saturday on doe day,I had a pack of feral dogs,mostly inbred mutts and then a couple of large dogs of a breed I've never seen chasing a herd of does.My hunting party began the turkey shoot if you will on this pack of 6.4 were dispatched with rifle rounds and 2 with pistols.The 2 that were taken with pistols were the larger ones of the group.I took the large feral dog that I got with a 4" 28 Highway Patrolman with a neck shot at about 30 yards with a handloaded Hornady 125 grain XTP h.p. over a heavy dose of H-110 and he went down like a sack of chop with the squeeze of the trigger,my buddy that nailed the 2nd large feral got his with a broadside shot with a Blackhawk 4-5/8" in .45 colt with a Sierra 240 grain JHC on top of a heavy dose of 2400 at about 20 yards,the Sierra JHC out of the 45 colt is nasty critter medicine,the exit wound was horriffic.I think in the handloaded round for this role the Sierra JHC in almost any caliber will deliver total incapacition immediately and the carnage left by this round is amazing.These larger 2 of the pack were approximately 75-80 lbs and nasty looking critters.But in this role I have no problem using handloaded ammo for protection against or dispatching critters like this.
Equalizer

With proper shot placement in a major, high velocity caliber, I'll agree Sierra JHP/JHC will much, if not most of the time be an instant stopper. I've seen what they can do, and it's far too graphic to discuss in polite company. The 165 gr. Sierras I use in my .44 leave rifle-like wounds.

Does that Sierra 240 grain .45 bullet hold together well in large animals?

T-Star

Texas Star,
I didn't really get to examine the wound that good without going into gutting and skinning the animal,but from the looks of the exit there was a lot of fragmentation due to the size of the exit.I've loaded a lot of Sierra 180 JHCs in .44 mag for my 629-1 4" and on whitetail were I could examine the entry and exit,they fragment quite a bit and cause rifle-like wounds that flop-shank shared with us.They are extremely graphic wounds and total incapacitators from everyone I've seen.
Equalizer

Shot a coyote that was ~75 lbs about 3 years ago. This was done with a 25-5 at about 25 yards. I was using silvertips. Hit in the left shoulder, didn't bother to look for the bullet but it died pretty quickly.

Always carry a half a dozen doggie treats in your pocket and you may avoid that unpleasant task.

So much for the vaunted hardball ammo.

Wait a minute here. That was a RABID cat and you put it out as bait for for other animals? Uhhhhhhh................golly, I wouldn't of done that!

About the only "implication" I can think of is that if its a proper load, the dog should die!

HUH?

All interesting and worth reading so I'll add my 2 cents.
It's all about shot placement as we well know.
A couple years ago I had the occasion to dispatch a bulldog of about 60-70 lbs. The dog was distracted and I took the shot from about 2-3ft 32acp hp at the base of the skull had the desired effect. The dog went stiff like throwing a switch and fell onto it's side. a follow up shot to the exposed ear just for insurance but that was not needed.

Well, do you seal your primers? How? If your ammo takes a dunking or is out in all sorts of weather for a couple of years before being fired, do you really have the same faith in it as you would in factory ammo?

T-Star

I've been privy to several. Here are the three that stuck with me:

1) Very large pit bull attacked one of our K-9's. It was shot four times with .45 acp Black Talons. It took three center mass hits to stop the charge and turn him. The fourth was an attempt to put him down. The dog took a few more steps, went down and died a minute later. I recovered three of the four bullets (one stopped just under the skin on the opposite side. All expanded well.

2) An average sized pit bull attacked an officer and was shot in the side of the neck and chest with a load of 00 buckshot. DRT.

3) Another pit bull charged a child in front of an officer. The officer shot him once in the chest and once in the neck with .40 180 Gold Dot JHP's. The chest shot had little effect. The round that hit the neck obviously severed the spine because the dog was paralyzed below that point. The animal was still growling and trying to bite.

We've had several others where the dog ran from the muzzle flash of a miss or from minor wounds. The bad thing about a vicious dog is they don't know they're supposed to fall down and die when they're shot. They don't care what make, model or caliber you have.

Oh, and they're darned hard to hit, too. One of the above 'muzzle flash' stops was mine.

I've had to shoot a dog one time, but it wasn't with a handgun. I used a beat up old Glenfield bolt-action .22 to "discourage" a pack of feral dogs who were approaching me at a gallop.

I caught the biggest (looked like a Rotty-Sheperd mix) right through the boiler room (about 4-5" aft of his from shoulder) at about 30 yards range. He went down immediately, twitched a couple of times, and that was it. Fortunately, that sent the rest of the pack high-tailing in the opposite direction.

The ammo was .22LR hollow point, probably CCI Mini-Mag.

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With S&W, you're holding history in your hand

i had to shoot two dogs one sick and one attacking another dog. one shot in the head with a 357 mag dead immediately. the othe shot in the neck with a 357sig dead immediately. the yote in my pic was shot with a 12g #4 buck at 35yds dead immediately. i have taken a number of yotes with various calibers and none have gone over 10 steps

If you ever have to put a large animal down, draw an imaginary line from the left eye to the right ear, and the right eye to the left ear.

I can vouch for that. That's how the old man used to put down our freezer beef: with a single-shot Sears/Stevens "Favorite." Yes, that's a .22. One shot only. Loaded with an OLD .22 LONG cartridge, not a Long Rifle. Gadzooks!

~1,000 -1,500 lbs. of pure feedlot bovineness dropped like it'd been hit by a thunderbolt. Amazing.

I remember being genuinely scared watching him take ONE cartridge from the old box he kept on the plate rack in the kitchen, putting the box back, and loading the rifle as we walked to the barn. His explanation was if he did not get it done with one we'd be needing the minister, not another shot.

He never needed a second shot, and Mom never needed to call the minister.

I read an article a while back written by a policeman who logged shots against aggresive dogs. He said the only thing that really laid them out with a chest shot was 125gr JHP 357s and 357 Sig. He also said 45 auto had come very close to failing him. 9mm 147 JHP were abysmal. One rotty ate 17 of them to the body before he stopped him. 40 was fair.

I have shot several rottwielers and other dogs/coyotes. Some for dangerous actions and some for euthanasia. I know the 32-20 100 gr lead, 32-20 80gr HP, 45 Colt 250gr LRN, 38+P FBI lswchp, 30-30, 12ga #4 buck, to all be very effective. I have never had a problem with them on dogs.

It is all in shot placement. I have killed 16 or so meat hogs in the last year or two with a 32-20 and only one knew what hit him. All the rest died instantly. I have even killed a cow with it. A 22 short will can a cow.

Breaker Dn-

Good info.

Thanks,

T-Star

I've had to kill three dogs; used .45ACP Hydra-Shok on all. All were head shots; only one, a medium size mixed shepherd breed, was not an immediate kill. Second round finished the job.
I did have a partner have to shoot an aggressive full-size German Shepherd, this time with .45ACP GD; it took three shots to the body and one to the head before it crawled away to expire. This happened in the kitchen of a residence and the floor looked like a murder scene.

Were you guys using five-inch barrels on those .45's? I have a theory that the .45 falls off in shorter barrel lengths.

The problem with shooting a dog in the head is that it ruins it for a rabies test, or so I've read.

T-Star

Not to mention the cerebro-spinal fluid (and saliva) will have a high concentration of the virus, if infected. So handling the dog would have to be done carefully. I don't know if it would ruin the test though.

I was using a Colt Government Model; the partner I described was using a Glock 21.

M1gunner - How do you get them to stay still when you draw the lines?


OK just kidding and while I did not shoot any dogs I was nano-seconds from doing so. I was walking in an very isolated wooded area when 5 dogs of mixed breeds came running straight to me. They instantly started circling me with the ones at my back moving in closer. The scary thing is you can not keep an eye on them all. When I really was afraid the ones in the back were going to bite I drew my Colt Trooper and was going to shoot the biggest dog which was a German sheppard. I felt I waited as long as possible and only because it is a terrible thing to HAVE to shoot someones dog. I believe they were ferral dogs as lots of hunters used that area and I know some just could not wait days for their dog to return.
At the sound of the hammer cocking and right before I was going to shoot they just ran away.I think they knew what a gun was. I think also that if I was not armed like Obuma would have liked I would not be here today.

I have had same experience as Skeet with loose dogs. I was on National Forest land, at least 5 miles from nearest homes. Most of the dogs had collars. I was grouse/turkey hunting each time with a long gun and it was quite clear that dogs knew what a gun was. I would presume they had seen other dogs shot. These were NOT dogs accompanying hikers or horseback riders -- those dogs have always acted quite differently.

I now commonly carry a revolver when hiking on National Forest land if there are any homes within easy roam for dogs.

Niklas

At the risk of sounding like some kind of sadist or fiend, let me state that there are times it may be necessary to shoot to "stop" a dog and NOT kill it. I once had a pit bull charge into me at full speed as I was wedged between the confines of a car and the wall of a car port. I did not have time to see it coming and it ran into my legs. I fully expected it to start chewing on me and the only reason I didn't shoot it is because I fumbled the draw with the Level III retention holster. While I was fumbling the draw I noticed a woman and young child standing at the back door, watching the whole episode. They were in my line of fire and I realized I had quite a predicament if the dog decided to maul me. The plan would then be to shoot straight down into the hips and either paralyze the rear end or make it cease and desist and drag itself away. Fortunately the dog was scared and ran away in the opposite direction. It did not bite me and I did not have time to shoot it, but I later got to thinking about how to handle a dog that is actively chewing on me. Experience has taught me that the .40/180GDHP does not give adequate penetration of humans, but on the plus side it will stay inside a dog and cause the dog to change its attitude very quickly. I do not want to risk shooting myself with a tight shot if a dog is latched on to me, so sometimes shooting to "stop" might actually be better than shooting to kill.

Dave Sinko

When I lived in Idaho, a good friend of mine was driving to work and came across a pack of dogs that had a deer down. He always carried a 2.5 inch Model 19 with 125 grain hollow points. He shot two working quick double action before the rest started to run. Those two went down and stayed down with high shoulder hits that probably hit the spine too. He hit a third on the run, but it got away making a lot of noise.

Another friend was a police officer out of Kenai, Alaska. He carried a Smith & Wesson 645. In the short time he worked for the Kenai PD he finished ten or twelve moose that had been hit by vehicles and their legs were broken. He said one shot with a 230 grain Federal Hydra-shock in the neck or brain always did the job.

The only dogs I ever shot were a couple of shephard mixes that came into my camp and were acting aggresively. We were in the middle of nowhere, and I have no idea where they came from. One .22 lr solid in the forehead for each dog finished them instantly. I was shooting a bolt action rifle. One dog reminded me of a film I once saw of an elephant being shot in the brain. The front legs straightened and its head lifted, then its butt hit the ground, followed by its head. The other one went down, rolled on its side and one rear leg lifted and made a stiff circling motion.

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SWCA 2379