I'm going to be purchasing either a 9mm or .40S&W handgun, and one of its functions will be home defense. The problem is that I live in an apartment, so overpenetration of a bullet could be a serious issue if I ever had to shoot in self defense. Are there any good rounds designed for this kind of situation?

I'm going to be purchasing either a 9mm or .40S&W handgun, and one of its functions will be home defense. The problem is that I live in an apartment, so overpenetration of a bullet could be a serious issue if I ever had to shoot in self defense. Are there any good rounds designed for this kind of situation?

Unfortunately anything that will shoot through a person will also shoot through a couple sheets of sheetrock. There are rounds made that fragment or penetrate less, but they have their problems too.
Here's a site to review penetration tests:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

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Science plus Art

Overpenetration of a wall, or of an assailant?

And one other question...

Are your state fire and construction codes written that requires two layers of sheetrock on each side of the wall separating apartments?

Matt, use whatever hollowpoint you feel is the best street load. Practice and the ability to use the perp as the backstop are the best way to control penetration issues.

Get some of the personal defense loads or police surplus ammo that are jacketed hollow points. All bullets that are of any use in defending yourself will penetrate a gyp board wall if they miss the bad guy. The hollow point ammo is less likely to penetrate through a bad guy and then through a wall than a full metal jacket or solid bullet.

The odds of hitting someone else in another room or apartment is small and killing them is even less likely but it could happen. You have to decide if protecting yourself and your family from an immediate threat of severe injury or death by an intruder is worth the small chance that someone else may be injured or killed. If you are unwilling to accept this risk and the potential consequences of such an occurrence then perhaps a less effective and lethal method of defense than a handgun should be chosen like a TASER, chemical sprays, etc.

Remember too that criminals intent on killing or injuring their victims will likely repeat their crime on someone else assuming they are allowed to succeed in their attack on you.

I'm more concerned about the bullet potentially going through the assailant and the walls and hitting someone in another apartment.

Maybe your best bet isn't a handgun at all. A 12 gauge loaded with birdshot will turn an assailant to pulp at household ranges, but the danger of overpenetration is slight.

A shotgun would be one option, but I would prefer a handgun.

With regards to caliber choice, I know a lot depends on the specific cartridge chosen but is 9mm or .40 generally a more penetrating round?

Any hollowpoint load from the any of the major manufacturers would do a good job. First, make sure that your chosen load is 100% reliable in your firearm, is controllable enough for you to shoot comfortably and accurately(shot placement)
Then consider factors such as penetration.
That's just my opinion.

I agree. I would be leery of Hornady XTPs. They are designed to penetrate very deeply. There are a lot of gelatin results at www.brassfetcher.com . Click on "old". Generally 12" through 14" penetration is considered ideal. I can live with a little less. Some people prefer more (that's where the XTPs come in). Caliber won't really matter in regards to penetration. The bullet engineers have no trouble working around that.

Read up on this...birdshot is VERY ineffective when it comes to human beings. Folks have been shot at very close ranges with it and were still walking around and talking when the paramedics arrived. Hurt? Yes. Angry? Probably. Down for the count and out of the fight? Nope.

Box O' Truth has a good write up on this a while back.

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Caretaker of a small herd.

I use a .38 Special for SD and load it with a 158gr LSWC/HP bullet. (The FBI Load) It's unlikely that bullet will pass through a bad guy and a wall. As for the 9mm and 40 S&W, the 9mm has more of a reputation of over penetration that most other rounds. It's hard to say which will be "safer" since there are too many factors involved to guess which will work better in your situation.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Dunno. Might make a good test the next time I'm
with my buddy who has a 9mm. "I'm using a .40"
My gut instinct would be that they are about
equal, with maybe a slight edge going to the
9mm, due to the more streamlined nose.
The .40, even with ball, has the blunt front
which I bet slows penetration a bit.
But then you have to consider the weight of the
slug too. In general, the heavier, the more they
will penetrate due to momentum.
So say you have a 147g 9mm, vs a 180g .40, the
.40 has the blunt front, but it's heavier and
maybe slightly faster depending on the brand,
so it could go either way.
Anyway, I consider them both as pretty good
at penetration, and would be really careful if
in an apt. Either one is going to go through
sheet rock like it's butter.
Course, location of the hit will have a lot to
do with how well a round penetrates. A shot
right in the gizzard is less likely to go
through, than say a hasty shot that goes though
a wrist, etc.
But another thing to consider is you are just
as likely to scare the bad guy away just
pointing the pistol at them. So it's a good
chance you wouldn't even have to fire a shot,
unless you are dealing with some kind of total
zombie. I'm not that hot on fragmenting rounds,
but if I lived in an apt with obvious people
in the line of fire, it might be worth thinking
about. You could load say 2 rounds of fragment
loads, and then follow it up with hollow points
in case the fragment loads didn't do the job.
I suspect that even if the fragment rounds
didn't take them down, they are more likely to
run off, than stick around for more. They won't
know what you are loading, and probably won't
care too much for any of them.

BTW, I get a kick out of that "box of truth"
guy. I also like to shoot up stuff to see
what happens.. That's where the real fun is..
Way more entertaining than a paper target.

You sure wouldn't want to be using FMJ..
I use those in the woods for the reason you
are concerned about. They penetrate well.
Watch me pop this can with 180 grain .40 FMJ..
Blew through it like a lead lazer beam.. Didn't
even disturb the can off it's roost.
That stuff would go through a wall like it's
paper.
http://home.comcast.net/~disk100/killacan.wmv

Why not use this one?
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?s...id=372014&t=11082005

It also comes in many other calibers.
Looks like a logical choice for an apartment.

Recent discussion in this forum about selecting 20 Gauge ammunition for Home Defense.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6951070...121025033#2121025033


Bekeart

We've discussed those ad nauseum here. Just do a search. They are too expensive to test fire/zero/practice with and I don't think there is a similar weight practice alternative available.

flop-shank,

Yes, those are expensive. Yes, I've read the forum and am aware of many opinions against using them (Erich was the strongest opponent if I am not mistaken). And yet I have them myself for the purpose of choice (see the very right one)

And if I was in apartment considering a SD load to use those will be my first two in my cylinder before FBI load.

Like I tell everyone, it's your butt and your call.

One of my idiot former co-workers accidentally shot himself with a Glaser Safety Slug while attempting to disassemble a loaded Glock. He owes his life to the inferior penetration of that overrated load.

And it is because of him that we are not allowed to carry Glocks on duty.

Dave Sinko

I recommend Winchester's Silver Tip ammo. Probably least overpenetration of any ammo, but specifically designed for extreme expansion in human tissue. I had an on-the-job shooting that involved (among other things) some SilverTips fired into a metal trash can (the regular old-fashioned kind)- not enough bullet intact to figure out who shot it!

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LEO since 1981.

I appreciate the recommendation-I'll have to look into that round. That's pretty much what I'm looking for-a reliable round for defense but something that isn't likely to blow through everything in its path.

Birdshot can be reliable as a stopper but not with a center of mass aim. It is much more effective as a once in the face and once in the crotch double tap. Even if he wants to continue the attack he can't find you.

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Brave Rifles

This may change my thinking.

When someone is trying to kill you, why would you use a system that mandates you go after the harder to hit head than the easier to hit center mass? With a shotgun I'm using Winchester 12 ga. 2 3/4" Foster slugs. I shot one into Perma-Gel with my 20" Ithaca Deerslayer. It stopped in 16", expanded to well over 1" in dia. and demolished the table the gel block was sitting on. There is no special "apartment load". Use what you would on the street. Use what hits hard as hell and shoot less. Less bullets in the air is IMO the best way to avoid hitting innocents. Buckshot along the lines of OO is a good choice also.

Thats for sure.

Anything that will reliably penetrate deep enough to stop a human will penetrate several sheet rock walls. You can't get around that. Bullets don't magically know that they have hit a wall instead of an attacker, and the human body is remarkably tough for all it's frailty.

Being concerned about what happens AFTER a fight and allowing that to limit you DURING a fight may prevent you from surviving a fight. Taking reasonable precautions is one thing, using something like Glaser ammo because you MIGHT have to shoot someone someday, you MIGHT miss and that miss MIGHT penetrate a wall and your neighbor MIGHT be standing is just the wrong spot... shows a lack of proper prioritization IMO.

A shotgun with #4 buck is IMO the best compromise that DOESN'T compromise your combat power. However, if you are limited to a handgun use whatever works best. If you want to reduce the danger to your neighbors, stop your attacker as quickly as possible.

If revolvers are an option, consider the common target wadcutter. When swaged of soft lead the blunt nose and low velocity tend to reduce penetration while still giving reasonable impact effect. And the relatively low recoil makes for quick recovery if follow-up shots are needed.
Added bonuses:
It is amoung the least expensive commercial ammo available so you can afford to practise a lot,
it is designed and loaded for maximum accuracy at moderate distances (150 feet or less),
and if you ever have to use it on someone there is nothing a shyster can point to as showing ill intent as they are the same bullets you use for paper targets at the range.

Also, unlike some premium rounds which can be hard to find, target wadcutters can be had at any range and almost any store that sels ammo.

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Big bang, much smash'em.

Target wadcutters are not low penetration ammo. They will probably penetrate most things more than hot loaded hollowpoints. The mild wadcutter handloads that I have in my wife's model 60 will penetrate 16" of Perma-Gel after four layers of denim. They do, however, have the advantage of fast follow up shots and excellent accuracy. I do agree that they aren't a type of ammo that is likely to cause a legal stink such as Black Talons might.

It is true that a wadcutter will penetrate more than a hollow point that expands but the very blunt nose configuration causes them to loose velocity very quickly in any medium and they start with a minimum of velocity in the first place.

A hollow point that does not expand will penetrate about the came as a ball round of the same weight and velocity. Gypsum/wallboard tends to clog hollow points and reduce expansion.

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Big bang, much smash'em.

Very true about the wallboard. There is a great Wadcutter test at www.brassfetcher.com . Click on the "old website" link and look for the Buffalo Bore .38 spl. std. pressure 150 gr. wadcutter test.

Buy a carbine in .223/5.56 and load it with either light varmint JHPs or M193 type ball. Problem solved.

Bullets can do strange things when hitting walls. Just because something will go through a wall on its own, doesn't mean that it'll go through a wall after going through a person. There's also a slew of other objects in an apartment - appliances, furniture, books, studs in the wall....

Beyond that one is confonted with a problem where under an unusual set of circumstances some unknown party might conceivably suffer an injury and is left to weigh that against using ammunition that - in the unlikely event one needs to use their firearm - will risk getting the *user* killed by failing to stop an aggressor.

You could Magsafe or Glaser rounds. That would solve any problems with over-penetration.

See earlier in the thread where Flop Shank stole my usual line about the problems with Glasers and Magsafes.

I remember a robber that was shot in the chest with a Glaser Safety Slug by the homeowner. EMS brought him into the and he was unconscious, but there was no bleeding. It turns out that the Glaser blew the hell out of the fat wallet he had in his inside jacket pocket and scared the robber so bad that he fainted - that's not all he did, but that's not germane to this discussion. That incident helped shape my thinking towards the Glasers - I've never bought one round.

By the way, the Marlin Camp Carbines in 9mm or .45ACP may be a good home defense option for those that cannot physically handle a shotgun or shoot a handgun competently. You could also add a flashlight, laser, red dot sight, or whatever works best for you to improve your target acquisition.

Best of luck,

Dave

On the carbines note...the Marlins are getting hard to find with the .45's damn near impossible. A lot are starting to show their age and built in flaws unfortunately now.

Consider a HiPoint 995 9mm carbine, their 4095 .40 carbine, and the .45 ACP carbine that should be out soon. Not pretty but work, made in the US, and lifetime warranty. Oh, good price too.

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Caretaker of a small herd.

This is an old thread, but I was looking at M&Ps today and the store had a .357 Sig model for $514 and the .40 which I prefer for $590. $590 is outrageous for an M&P and I told the salesperson I thought it was too expensive. He offered me the .357 at which point I raised concerns about overpenetration. The salesperson proceeded to tell me that I didn't know anything about physics and that .357Sig is less likely to overpenetrate than .40. Is there any truth to that or is the guy just trying to sell me the .357?

Most modern defensive cartridges in either caliber will probably yield similar penetration. While the .357 is smaller in diameter, which helps penetration, the standard defensive bullet is lighter (124/5? gr.) than those found in the .40, which hinders penetration. It all balances out and the engineers that design ammo can tweek a bullet to get the results they want. Look for online gelatin test results for a given load you're interested in to get an idea of how deeply it is likely to penetrate.

ONE use "COR-BON"SELF DEFENSE ammo it is the best ////////////

The G&A Personal Defense DVDs show that this is the most effective with the least overpenetration. The only thing better was a 20GA. 9mm hollow points went through 3 walls (wallboard-air space-wallboard = 1 wall); as did most other pistol rounds including a .22 lr.

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Revolver luvin' Mountaineer

There is a great podcast regarding defensive shotguns at proarms.podbean.com .

I hate to bring back an old thread, but now I have an M&P40 and need to decide which load to keep in it at home. It does fine with all the cheap CCI and Winchester 165 and 180 grain practice ammo I've put through it so far, but I've also seen 135s and 155s. I guess what I'm looking for is a decent but not overpowered .40 defensive load to minimize the chance of overpenetration. Some have suggested the FBI load 165s...are they correct?