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Old 01-23-2009, 10:40 AM
BugBeard BugBeard is offline
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Reading and thinking about ammo recently had me pondering:

Is expansion considered a real problem for full house 357 loads shot out of a short barrel revolver?

For example, say I want to shoot hot 125gr: The ballistics data show a huge range from say 1200fps out of a 2 inch to 2800fps out of an 18 inch barrel.

Obviously expansion will be different at each velocity. Is there a generally accepted target fps range for good expansion from a typical 357 cartridge?

In other words, is it pretty much assured that my hot 357 load out of my snubby won't reliably expand? Related to this, even if it doesn't expand reliably, is the power still worth the tradeoff?

One wonders if the stopping power would be greater on a lighter load that expands vs one that is hotter but doesn't...
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Old 01-23-2009, 10:40 AM
BugBeard BugBeard is offline
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Reading and thinking about ammo recently had me pondering:

Is expansion considered a real problem for full house 357 loads shot out of a short barrel revolver?

For example, say I want to shoot hot 125gr: The ballistics data show a huge range from say 1200fps out of a 2 inch to 2800fps out of an 18 inch barrel.

Obviously expansion will be different at each velocity. Is there a generally accepted target fps range for good expansion from a typical 357 cartridge?

In other words, is it pretty much assured that my hot 357 load out of my snubby won't reliably expand? Related to this, even if it doesn't expand reliably, is the power still worth the tradeoff?

One wonders if the stopping power would be greater on a lighter load that expands vs one that is hotter but doesn't...
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Old 01-23-2009, 11:04 AM
Texas Star Texas Star is offline
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Expansion a problem for full house 357 from short barrel snub? Expansion a problem for full house 357 from short barrel snub?  
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I think your first issue is whether you can control a snub .357. A 2.5-inch barelled M-19 was right at the limit for me, and I traded it off. I have a Ruger SP-101 that I haven't shot yet, but will probably limit .357 use in it to Remington's midlevel load. Mostly, this three-inch gun will eat .38 ammo.

That said, when I wanted expansion in a snub, I leaned toward 140 grain bullets. Remington's is probably more likely to open quickly than is Hornady's, making the latter better for larger animals. It all depends on what your expected target is. (Not sure if Remington still makes 140 grain .357's.)

I was pretty sure that recent Federal 158 grain Hydra-Shoks would open some, due to the design. I avoided full 125 grain loads, because they are very hard on guns and the blast was very objectionable. If you want to use them, I think the M-686 or the Ruger GP-100 are better vehicles than K- or J-frame snubs.

I researched the velocity of the 140 grainers from snub and three-inch guns, and they'd usually exceed 1200 FPS. And penetration should be ample for humans, cougars and similar animals. Certainly more than enough for even really large snakes. I'd be pretty sure that nothing more would be needed, even on big anacondas or reticulated pythons. (We have some readers who live or go where these snakes live.)

For bears, I'd worry less about expansion and rely on deeper penetration and pinpoint placement. And I'd use a longer barrel if I could, and choose 158 grain or Remington's 165 grain load. I don't like heavier bullets in this bore size. If you want heavier bullets, shoot them in a .44 Magnum.
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Old 01-23-2009, 01:16 PM
marvin knox marvin knox is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by BugBeard:
................. Related to this, even if it doesn't expand reliably, is the power still worth the tradeoff?
One wonders if the stopping power would be greater on a lighter load that expands vs one that is hotter but doesn't...
Reliable expansion for certain specific velocity ranges is the way we count on getting just the right penetration depth and maximum wound chanel for self defense against human assailants.

The idea is to get 12" of penetration (depending on who is talking and why) and not so much more that the bullet will over penetrate. That's because of considerations of bystanders. If it were not for concerns about others, there would be no concern about over penetration.

If the bullet doesn't expand, there will be a perfect .357 diameter hole through the person being shot. Under circumstances having no bystanders, why not exit the target? At least there would be a nicer blood trail to follow - just like archery. Come to think of it - carrying non-expanding ammo is just like going hunting with an arrow with a target tip on it, isn't it? Why would you do such a thing unless you had a full 1" diameter arrow to fire.

Rediculous!

Expansion stops the bullet in time to not exit the target and hit bystanders. PROPER expansion assures that it all happens within the depth of the human torso in most cases. Proper expansion assures us that there is the widest possible hole punched in the most vulnerable areas of the target.

Under ideal circumstances - a .357 bullet becomes a .65 bullet sometime before it reaches the supposedly ideal 12".

The "hotter" the ammo, the sooner the bullet should reach .65 (or whatever) to assure that the bullet slows enough to not exit the body at the end of it's swath of damage.

Other than a little bit of damage from a TEMPORARY wound chanel - there is

**** VIRTUALLY NO MORE STOPPING POWER *******

with a bullet fire at very fast velocities and one fired slower. If neither bullet expands properly, both will cut a swath exactly .357 diameter through the victim. Perhaps the lower velocity round would not exit the body like the hotter round - but then, it probably would not reach the vital nervous system related targets near the back of the victim either.

Assuming they both do reach at least deep enough to do some damage back there, you have your choice - I suppose. You can have a .357 hole all the way through the back side of the target with a nice blood trail to follow. Or you can have a .357 hole most of the way through with a bullet left in the victim to cause blood poisoning somewhere in the future and kill him that way.

Long post - and that aint the half of it!

***(It is true that rifle velocities can cause significant damage upon impact and temporary wound chanels can become in reality true wound chanels - but not so with typical handgun velocities. It is also true that some fragmentation of handgun bullets can cause true damage at the beginning of the swath as well.)


Bottom line = get a .357 bullet that expands to around .65 or so (some expand more than others) and stops in about 12" or so - at the speed your particular powder charge will be pushing it. Barrel length will allow for more or less velocity and the bullet choice will be chosen accordingly.

Under those circumstances, why get kicked any more than necessary to do that? Target acquisition will be better with a lower velocity choice. Even assuming proper expansion of any recoil level round chosen - increased temporary wound chanel damage will be a very poor trade off for loss of accuracy in bullet placement IMO.
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Old 01-23-2009, 05:11 PM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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I believe muzzle energy can play a role in stopping power. Being as you are a newer shooter, I would suggest that you run Speer SB .357s if you can shoot them better than .38 +Ps. I use 125 gr. Remington SJHPs in my steel Taurus snub and it took me a good thousand rounds, fired between twenty-five and fifty at a time to get good. Expansion shouldn't be a problem, even with managed recoil .357s. I have posted Perma-Gel test results in this forum for Speer .38 +P, SB .357 and Remington 125 gr. SJHPs in various barrel lengths if you do a search. Think of your self as an amatuer boxer. You don't have to be up to the task of tangling with the big boys (full house .357s) right away. Take your time and work your way up the ranks. Learn to reload if you haven't so that you can make practice ammo that replicates the recoil of your carry ammo, and the next most powerful load you are considering. I believe that powerful ammo is somewhat more important to revolver shooters because we are limited in our ammo capacity. We must strive to make every shot a blockbuster punch, but never sacrifice accuracy in the process.
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Old 01-23-2009, 05:21 PM
GatorFarmer GatorFarmer is offline
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Expansion a problem for full house 357 from short barrel snub? Expansion a problem for full house 357 from short barrel snub? Expansion a problem for full house 357 from short barrel snub? Expansion a problem for full house 357 from short barrel snub? Expansion a problem for full house 357 from short barrel snub?  
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The .357 Sig - in most loadings save the hotter ones from Double Tap et al - runs at similar velocities to what a .357 snub produces (somewhere in the 1200 range). Most commonly encountered with a 125 grain bullet, the .357 Sig seems to enjoy a good reputation in terms of bullet expansion and such. If properly designed .357 Sig bullets will expand at 1200ish fps, there's no reason that .357 magnum bullets won't.
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Old 01-23-2009, 06:02 PM
pps pps is offline
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An exposed lead hollow point should expand nicely at 1200fps. Here are pics of 158gr sjhp (Zero brand) and 158gr soft cast/home brew lhp at about 1250.
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Old 01-23-2009, 06:06 PM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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Did those frag, PPS? They look like it.
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Old 01-23-2009, 06:29 PM
pps pps is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by flop-shank:
Did those frag, PPS? They look like it.
Yeah, the one on the left did fragment and weighed in the 130's. The two on the right retained most of their weight.

Also note, the one on the right had lead smeared all over the gas check. Turns out there is a constricture in the bore where the barrel screws into the frame of my revolver.

I just fire lapped the barrel, polished and seasoned the barrel. No more leading and an increase from about 1250fps to 1300fps for the homebrew bullet on the right, (14.0grains of 2400) No more smearing of lead over the gas check either.

Addendum: The one on the left is Fiocci, middle is Zero, Right is my home brew..sorry about the error
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Old 01-26-2009, 07:53 PM
BugBeard BugBeard is offline
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So a full house load from a snubby typically has nothing but advantages in terms of ballistics as long as one assumes overpenetration is not an issue?

But it sounds like you are also saying that it is possible for a hotter load to penetrate less since it expands sooner and will have increased resistance per unit inch as it travels.

So it sounds like there is no single right answer but depends upon testing a particular cartridge out of a specific gun/bbl length?

It seems simple at first glance, but it also sounds like many variables are in play. Enough for me to want to choose based on testing rather than theory.
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Old 01-26-2009, 09:03 PM
pps pps is offline
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Quote:
So it sounds like there is no single right answer but depends upon testing a particular cartridge out of a specific gun/bbl length?
...on a particular perpetrator at a given angle. If some 300# SOB has you down and you have to shoot through his family jewels to hit his heart, I doubt you'll be worried about over penetration.

After working in a prison, giving medical care to inmates I upgraded from a 125gr sjhp .357 to the 158gr sjhp. You do what floats your boat, I'll stick with a bit heavier round based on what I've seen with game.
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Old 01-26-2009, 11:20 PM
OKFC05 OKFC05 is offline
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Expansion a problem for full house 357 from short barrel snub? Expansion a problem for full house 357 from short barrel snub?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by BugBeard:

So it sounds like there is no single right answer but depends upon testing a particular cartridge out of a specific gun/bbl length?

It seems simple at first glance, but it also sounds like many variables are in play. Enough for me to want to choose based on testing rather than theory.
For stubby barrels, the Gold Dot Short Barrel 135gr .357 load has been tested and shown to expand reliably at the real velocities achieved. As an added benefit, it is loaded with faster powder to reduce muzzle blast and flash, which can be intimidating to all but the most seasoned shooters.
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Old 01-31-2009, 11:38 AM
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Expansion a problem for full house 357 from short barrel snub? Expansion a problem for full house 357 from short barrel snub?  
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Groo here
For the most part the reason to use a
controlled expansion round is to limit
the possibility of the bullet going through your target.
Unlike a rifle that has much more energy-
a hand gun bullet can only damage what it can
touch and not slip out of the way.
The expansion causes the bullet to slow faster
but the total damage may not be any different depending on the how deep the bullet goes.
Bullets that have a large hollow or a lot of
lead exposed would be my first choice[Rem sjhp
or Nyclad, swchp-lead or gold dot.
You will want an impact speed of about 1000fps
or so [bullet dependent{ larger bullets have
larger hollows and need a lower speed all things being equal]
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357 magnum, 44 magnum, 686, cartridge, hornady, model 686, remington, ruger, sig arms, snubby, snubnose, taurus

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