38 P+ load

[afriqueart]

I recently purchased a 1983 model 60. The barrel doesn't show 38+P. Would it be safe to shoot a +P load?

Thanks

[Red Tex]

The Model 60 is a steel frame, so +P ammo should be OK for at least "limited" use. The gneral rule would be: practice with std 38 ammo and carry 38+P if this is going to be used as a self defense weapon.

[danski]

Five, 10 +Ps to see where it hits and how you react; otherwise limit practice to standard .38s. Then next year, try another 10.

The restriction on +Ps has been pretty much relaxed by S&W; still, you don't want to overstress the little feller.

Not uncommon for me and friends 20 years ago to practice with +Ps in airweight
models, again on a limited basis and just to get the feel of them. Frankly, we could
hardly tell the difference of popping a +P in an airweight vs. all steel.

[Erich]

What amuses me about the cautious answers this oft-repeated question about pre-dash J-frames always gets is that Elmer Keith was shooting some pretty seriously hot (hotter than present-day +P specs) loadings in his first-year Chiefs Specials - read Sixguns to see how he reports they held up fine.

I don't think you need to concern yourself about a catastrophic failure: I've shot downright atomic handloads out of J-frames, and I'm not at all concerned about shooting +P loadings out of any steel J-frame that I own for the rest of time. People talk about the possibility of accelerated wear, but I've not seen it in a steel-framed J-frame gun that's been treated properly. (I pretty much don't bother shooting anything out of my J-frames that's not into the +P pressure range . . . or above it, now that the manuals have been dumbed down so much.)

I have concerns about the press-fit barrels in aluminum-framed guns and strive to keep their forcing cones squeaky-clean (and frankly don't shoot them much) based on seeing too many cracks (here on the forum and one on my own gun) in them over the years, but I really think this is a problem that is unrelated to the use of +P rounds (after discussions with people who know more about it than me, I believe it has more to do with manufacturing mistakes - which is what S&W told me happened with mine - and lead-plated forcing cones).

This is all worth exactly what you paid for it, of course. For the real skinny from the horse's lawyers and engineers (in that order), you should call the factory, of course: 1-800-331-0852.

[RainDodger]

As I mentioned in this post in another section, I carried a Model 60 as a duty weapon for years. I bought it new in '87 and our issue ammunition was Winchester 158 grain hollow point lead rounds. White box, red lettering, government issue for federal law enforcement, and it's all +P. I still have some that was issued to me. I fired thousands of rounds through the Model 60 and I still have it. It's just fine and still shoots great. I carry it often in my truck.

[dg101win]

Didn't one our own forum members run his own test on this last year? I believe he ran about a 1,000 rounds through a J frame with no discernable damage.

[Erich]

naw, that was a Model 12 (quasi-K-frame alloy frame 6-shot .38)

[maustypsu]

I just got one with NO lock. The others that I see have +P on the barrel but this one does not. Smith's website shows that +P is OK in 642's but again, the picture shows +P on the barrel.

I thought there might be a chance that this was older than the current models since it had no lock. Is there a chance that this would NOT accept +P?

I planned to shoot enough +P to sight in a Crimson Trace Laser grip. Then I would only shoot a cylinder or two on occassion to make sure it was still sighted in. Everything else would be .38 spl loads.

[stiab]

Originally Posted by maustypsu

I planned to shoot enough +P to sight in a Crimson Trace Laser grip. Then I would only shoot a cylinder or two on occassion to make sure it was still sighted in. Everything else would be .38 spl loads.

That's a good plan, stick with it and your shooting hand will thank you and your grandchildren can inherit a very nice fully functioning S&W revolver!

[ArchAngelCD]

As mentioned many times before today's .38 Special +P ammo is not "hotter" than the normal carry .38 Special ammo of the past. The current SAAMI max pressure for a .38 Special +P round is 18,500 PSI, hardly enough to harm an all Steel revolver. For the most part you can fire a current +P round from any post-war S&W revolver within limited use. (with the possible exception of the very hot stuff that's around using the older 20,000+ PSI standard)

[Pisgah]

Common sense says that a hotter load will wear out any gun faster than a less-hot load; however, "faster" is a relative term.

I shoot +Ps in my J-frames without concern. I figure if it takes, say, 50,000 rounds of standard-pressure stuff to destroy a J-frame, then it won't take but maybe 45,000 to do it with +P. Big deal. I doubt I'll ever reach either number in one J-frame.

[deralte]

What about .38 +P loads in a new 340CT .357? I am assuming that any revolver built for a .357 would easily accomodate the plus P.

[flop-shank]

Originally Posted by deralte

What about .38 +P loads in a new 340CT .357? I am assuming that any revolver built for a .357 would easily accomodate the plus P.

Fire at will. .38 +P operates at much lower pressures than .357 magnum does.

[Spotteddog]

Missed you F/S!
Good to read you!

[flop-shank]

Originally Posted by Spotteddog

Missed you F/S!
Good to read you!

I've been around and read most every post in the CCW and ammo forums (except the Wal-Mart threads) Old lady family friend is ill, father's house got flooded (toasted both his cars), father-in-law is dying, work is nuts and friend is throwing out 20-something recalcitrant kids. I started going back to church (after a five year hiatus) about a month ago. No small coincidence IMO.

[Erich]

I'll have a good thought for you, amigo.

[flop-shank]

Thanks much, bro. I had a relaxing day and remain in good spirits.

[Erich]

Right on. Me, I saw carnivorous prairie dogs cannibalizing their dead, APD SWAT on a call-out with ARs on the freeway, and the cutest little girl in the world at an Appleseed shoot. Plus, the sunset right now is glorious.

[Spotteddog]

OK Erich, I've got to ask!
I'm as "current" as cave painting, who, or what the Hell is your new Avatar?
Sorry OP for the mini-jack!

[Erich]

Evil Robot Monkey!

[The Rabbi]

Most of what is marketed as "+P" today is pretty tame stuff by traditional standards. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it in any steel framed Smith made after 1950.
A new company, Blue Bunny ammo, will be marketing 3 kinds of .38spc loads, including an FBI load and a 200gr load.

[smith57]

I shoot +P pressure reloads in my Md 60's (have 2 of them) almost exclusively. They are obviously not target guns, and I use the same ammo to pracice with that I carry. I have not noticed any negative effects from the +P loads on the gun at all..... moreso on my hand than the gun !

[David Sinko]

A few days ago I dragged out the chronograph, the short Ruger SP101 and a bunch of .38 Special ammo, much of it assorted factory loaded JHP marked +P on the case. None of the factory loaded +P was able to reach 900 FPS.

But that was just a warmup for the 158 gr. cast bullets I had loaded with SR4756. Those really do break 1100 FPS.

Dave Sinko

[stiab]

Originally Posted by The Rabbi

Most of what is marketed as "+P" today is pretty tame stuff by traditional standards.

Hi, I was just curious as to your source for that info. Thanks...

[BreakerDan]

Originally Posted by stiab

Hi, I was just curious as to your source for that info. Thanks...

38 Special standard pressure charges from loading manuals have continually dropped for the last 30 years. What was a normal charge is now over +P. Also, factory 38 Specials from the 40-60s went around or over 800fps and most now are only at 700fps. From what I can tell, 38+p is were standard 38s used to be.

Also, 32-20 ballistics have dropped too. Standard loads from the 1950s that I chronographed go a full 100-150fps faster in the same load type than new ammo.
Ammo is and has been watered down.

For what it is worth, Elmer Keith took a first year production J frame in 1960
and put a whole case (500 rounds) of 38-44 rounds through it. 38-44 rounds were near 357 loads. He said they went 1100fps and were above +P+ pressure as we now call it. The little J frame made it fine and was checked completely for wear and tear with no problems found. I dont hesitate to put any factory 38+p in my J frame. I usually use Rem 158gr LSWCHP or Speer Gold Dot. I also know of people who have put 1000 rounds of hot +p through pre ww2 K frames with no damage. 38+p is just not that hot.

Source for Elmer Keith is his classic work, "SIXGUNS BY KEITH."

[stiab]

Originally Posted by BreakerDan

38 Special standard pressure charges from loading manuals have continually dropped for the last 30 years

Breaker, I read comments like that here all the time, but fail to see how someone can use reloading manuals as proof that FACTORY loads have been watered down. When the poster said "marked as +P", he seemed to be referring to factory loaded ammo.

You may or may not have seen the actual test results I posted a couple months ago comparing older versus newer 38 Super ammo, indicating the factory ammo of today is just as strong was it 70 years ago. I started with 38 Super in my testing because one of the members of this forum who in the past posted frequently on this subject used the downgrading of 38 Super as evidence the same thing had happened to 38 Special.

I have accumulated a lot of old and new 38 Special ammo, and will do that comparison test within the next couple of months. I don't know how it will come out, but I suspect that the significant decrease seen in FACTORY published velocites is due to the industry changes in 1978 that no longer allow using the long unvented test barrels. Even comparing S&W ammo pamphets from before and after the testing changes, the velocities dropped dramatically, with the earlier brochure saying test barrels were used, and the next saying real guns (i.e. Model 10 w/ 4" barrel) were used.

[BreakerDan]

Originally Posted by stiab

Breaker, I read comments like that here all the time, but fail to see how someone can use reloading manuals as proof that FACTORY loads have been watered down. When the poster said "marked as +P", he seemed to be referring to factory loaded ammo.

You may or may not have seen the actual test results I posted a couple months ago comparing older versus newer 38 Super ammo, indicating the factory ammo of today is just as strong was it 70 years ago. I started with 38 Super in my testing because one of the members of this forum who in the past posted frequently on this subject used the downgrading of 38 Super as evidence the same thing had happened to 38 Special.

I have accumulated a lot of old and new 38 Special ammo, and will do that comparison test within the next couple of months. I don't know how it will come out, but I suspect that the significant decrease seen in FACTORY published velocites is due to the industry changes in 1978 that no longer allow using the long unvented test barrels. Even comparing S&W ammo pamphets from before and after the testing changes, the velocities dropped dramatically, with the earlier brochure saying test barrels were used, and the next saying real guns (i.e. Model 10 w/ 4" barrel) were used.

While I cannot personally verify the 38 SPL factory loads being watered down, I can in fact
verify the 32-20 has been watered down. I chronographed standard 115 grain ammo of 1940s-1950s vintage from Winchester and Sears in a 5 1/2" Colt SA. I got 825-875 fps with both. Modern Winchester Super X 100 gr went 705 and the Remington 100gr went 725 in the same pistol in the same conditions. The 15gr heavier bullet went 100 fps faster. I know for a fact 32-20 is not what it used to be. I would say the 38 Special is not what it used to be either, but that is just my opinion.

Quite frankly, the 32-20 is now a 32 S&W long. Thats why I reload it to what it should be, still being mindful of the old guns that shoot it.

I found your 38 Super article very interesting and was surprised at the results. The older is hotter in 38 Super is certainly an often told story. Guess it isnt true.
You need to do a test on old 38 Special. The only old 38 Spl I have chronographed is the Super X 200 gr "Super Police" load of 1970s vintage. 625 fps from a 4" Model 15 and 576fps!!!! from a 2" Model 36. I have two boxes so I thought I would try that old load out. It would be interesting to see old 38 data. I just know for a fact that 32-20 is watered down. I could certainly be wrong about the 38 Spl.

[stiab]

It will be an interesting test, for sure. I have not been able to add any old 38 Special ammo recently, will give it another month or two, and probably do the test when it cools off a little in September. There's no shade at the outdoor range I use!

[flop-shank]

Stiab, I'm looking forward to reading what you learn. Testing old vs. new .38+P is a very pregnant idea. Thanks in advance.