I've noticed much ballyhoo about the reissue of the 125gr Nyclad rounds. I understand they are low recoil/low pressure and thus are "safe" for older snubs and easy to shoot. Plus it seems that many people recommend this round.

However, according to this .38 Special Federal 125gr Nyclad JHP (S&W Model 60) , it seems that the nyclad bullet does not penetrate deep enough when it expands but penetrates too much (and no expansion) when clogged with denim.

There has to be better standard pressure defense loads than this? Or is there other data out there indicating better performance by the 125gr Nyclads.

My plan for an older steel framed snub (1960's) is to use the standard pressure Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWC HP. Are there any others I can or should look at?

Belwolf,
I have been carrying the Federal 125 gr JHP Nyclads for quite some time. I was introduced to it by some law enforcement friends back in the early ninetys and it is my carry round in a model 13 and a 442. I originally started using it in a early issue 640 that was rated for
.38special +P+ and the sp101, 3" .357 great shooting round I still have about a box of it left that is 1 round I shoot very sparingly because of availability. (Remember personnel defense) maybe some lawenforcement folks will chime in here. A double tap center mass
from the holster control and visibility are key. Just my 2 cents hope this helped
Carl

Belwolf: The Nyclad round should perform a lot better than indicated in the Firearms Tactical report. There was a thread on this topic a couple years ago (back when Nyclads were still out of production) and some of the discussion centered on the fact that F.T. reported an average velocity over 100fps lower than others who had tested the same round. When fired from Smith & Wesson 1-7/8" snubs, other published reports showed 850-860fps for the standard-pressure round, and a member here who did his own tests reported nearly identical velocities: 845-860fps from his 442. I believe Federal's own specs show 830fps from a 2" vented test barrel.

The 125gr. Nyclad is probably as good as it gets for a lightweight, standard-pressure snubnose round. The lead 158gr you mentioned would probably work fine too, but with slightly higher recoil.

I think DC7 really hit the heart of the matter. Standard pressure .38 from a snub is a lot like .380. There's not a whole lot for ballistics engineers to work with.

I fired a single std. pressure Federal Nyclad from my wife's 3" model 60 into four layer denim/Perma-Gel and expansion was iffy (the bullet's nose flared out so that it resembled a blue trumpet). One might do just as well with target wadcutters and they should have less recoil. I can't speak for factory wadcutters, but at least the wadcutter handload I put in my wife's gun is milder.

Thanks, good information. Yes, there seems to be little out there in standard pressure 38. Though my snub is older, it is steel framed, so I may just carry +p for defense while practicing with standards.

I am interested in the Nyclads and do plan to try them out.

I had access to a good amount of that 125 grain Nyclad HP load in standard pressure and +P. The +P round was pretty good in terms of accuracy and expansion, although it shot several inches low at 15 yards out of a 2".

The standard pressure round was very accurate, but hardly expanded and shot several inches low as well, almost off the target at 25 yards. You might think that 25 yards is not a distance you would be shooting, but qualifying at that distance with that load would be difficult. I always thought that 148 grain wadcutter would be a better load for the recoil-adverse.

Personally, I prefer 158 grain ammo as the guns are sighted for that bullet weight - +P in steel guns and standard in the airweights.

I had a chance to try some of the new production Nyclad this morning in some Airweights. Shot about 35-40 rounds in three different guns.

1. More flash than the CorBon DPX that I use for defense.

2. More blast than I expected from a standard pressure load.

3. Was dirty in the short barrel Airweights. I found quite a bit of unburned powder under the ejection star.

4. Accurate enough at spitting distances. I didn't have any problem staying inside six inches, fast doubles, at the three yard line.

5. Recoil was about 85% compared to DPX in my estimation.

6. POA/POI was right on at both three and seven yards. At 25 yards using a 642, all fifteen shots inside the 12 inch ring, hitting just a bit low.

I think it would do just fine for those that can't handle the CorBon DPX.

__________________
Centennial Every Day

There was a time that Federal® offered a much wider Nyclad™ selection in 38special. In addition to the 125gr HP standard pressure; there was a 125gr HP +P, 158gr standard pressure RNL, and a 158gr SWCHP +P. They were also offerd in 9mm as a RNL load also. Before Federal® discontinued the Nyclad™ line all rounds were in 50rd boxes, not the 20 rd box of today.

Both my wife & I use the Buffalo Bore® Standard Pressure load in our 5 shot snubbies. IMHO, I believe it is THE LOAD for snubnose 38Special revolvers, ESPECIALLY AIRWEIGHT™'S. This load will give far better penetration than the lighter 125gr Nyclad®; and dumps more energy into the target/perp. It is also far cleaner than other standard pressure alternative.

__________________
David
CW3 USA (Ret) 1968-1990

There was a book by police officer and gunwriters Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow , compiling actual police and self defense shootings by caliber and ammo type. The (then) S&W Nyclads in 38 and 9mm were some of the most effective (standard pressure) one shot fight stoppers available.

There are those that claim the "statistics" in that book were completely made up. There is quite a bit of evidence - both statistical and methodological - to support the view that the Marshall/Sanow book, viewed in the most favorable light, was horribly flawed. At least one of the authors has also been shown to have created, for the mass print audience, false accounts of police-involved shootings and ammunition performance, and was rebuked in print by the police departments involved in a major law enforcement publication.

Do a few searches and you can find plenty of print on it.

I don't know if the M&S stats are made up, and I'm not going down that road since the statistics are becoming increasingly irrelavent with time, but I do think that if one selects from the top third of any caliber like they say, and then also consider how they compare to today's best ammo, you'll be running good ammo.

I used to carry this 125gr Nyclad in my model 36 revolver.
Couple years ago I chronoed 5 rounds of it from this revolver and I got average of 790 fps. Based on my readings when they expand the penetration is too shallow and that they usually don't expand and will penetrate like solid bullet.

For last couple years I have been carrying handloads in my model 36.
I load double ended full wadcutter 148gr bullets with 3.5 grains of W231. It will do 750 fps in my model 36.

I tried some of the original S&W "blue box" 125gr non +P Nyclads in a 4" K38 some years ago. I fired them into a one gallon jug filled with water. The jug exploded when hit, but I would find perfectly mushroomed Nyclads lying on the ground behind the jugs or lightly embedded in the ground. In a snub, I don't know. Not much confidence in the Nyclads unless +P of 158 gr.

It is my understanding that Federal loads these new ones to 775 fps- most 158 LRN can come very close to that and they dont seem to be loaded full power. Honestly, I would rather use a 148 HBWC loaded backwards or the BB 158 gr LSWCHP if I had to stick to non +P.
I shoot +P and +P+ from my all steel no dash M36 with no trouble.
I would not do that to alloy frames though.

I'm not 100% certain, but feel about the same way. A Federal std. pressure Nyclad I fired into four layer denim/Perma-Gel from my wife's 3" model 60 expanded, but not well (at least penetration was good). I doubt it would have expanded at all from a 1 7/8" barrel. In bare P-G it may have. That load might be of more use to those in the south where heavy clothes aren't the norm half the year. One of these days I'll have to shoot bare P-G with a Nyclad from my 360 PD.