Hello all,

Didn't see this covered. Anybody have a preference for 223 self-defense ammo from a 16 inch barrel ? Or does an impact at 3000+ fps make anything equally effective ?

Thanks

What is the twist rate of your barrel? Mine is 1:12" and I run Malaysian M193 (55 gr. military ball). I would also use M193 in 1:9" barrels. I think the fancy dollar a shot stuff is good (Hornady TAP and DPX immediately come to mind), but for non-law enforcement use ultimately a waste of money in an M16. A friend of mine literally shot a man's arm off with two rounds of M193.

M855 (62 gr. ball) would be my likely choice in a 1:7" barrel, pending my own tests.

1 in 9 twist. It seems a tumbling military ball makes an expanding bullet unnecessary ?

It MAY tumble once you have penetration. If it tumbled in flight you would get no accuracy and see evidence of bullets hitting the target sideways(if you were lucky enough to have them actually HIT the target). That old myth about the 223 tumbling in flight is just that: myth.

Self-defense? I just run milspec 55-gr ball - Q3131 or 3131A or Guatamalan milsurp. Accurate out of my Bushy M4gery (1/9) to 200 yds (I won't be shooting beyond that with a 5.56) and not so likely to overpenetrate.

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When you have a weapon capable of firing 30 rounds very quickly with a fast reload for another 30 I really don't think it's important what bullet it fires. My main concern would be reliability of the ammo and that it will feed under the worst conditions. Find something that will do that and you will be well protected IMO. Besides, shooting a lot of different ammo will be plenty of fun. Hey, it's dirty work but someone has to do it, right??

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SWCA #3437

I have read that classic M193 behavior is to tumble within two or three inches of penetration. As the bullet turns sideways it breaks at the cannelure. The nose goes deep and keep tumbling. The base fragments into multiple pieces that create their own secondary wounds, oftentimes penetrating several inches in different directions. Frequently the secondary cavitation/energy dump will lacerate tissue between the various holes caused by the fragments. In other words the bullet can cause severe damage to tissue that it doesn't even touch.

I shot an M193ish handload, utilizing Hornady's excellent 55 gr. FMJ bullet into Perma-Gel and saw evidence of all the above.

I also shot a woodchuck last summer with my 165 gr. .44 magnum handload, which has just slightly lower muzzle energy than M193 from a twenty inch barrel and saw with my own eyes the tearing/lacerating effect that over 1000 fpe. and a fragmenting bullet can deliver. A couple of Vietnam veterans I know have attested to the same thing regarding M16 wounds.

Tons of tested reliable info here:

:: Ammo Oracle

See the list of articles on the left. Me, I have both XM193 and some Corbon 55 OTM.

If your concern is from 0 to 100 yards, any load will do. I've yet to see an AR that wouldn't group at least in to 4" at 100 yards with the least-accurate loads, and even the reports of failures with certain bullets in the Middle East fighting refer to longer-range performance. My 1:9-barreled AR stays loaded with winchester 45 gr. HP loads at home, Silver Bear 62 gr. softpoints when afield.

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Pisgah

elcruisr, thanks for the link. I can't wait to read that stuff as time allows.

There are gelatin test results at www.brassfetcher.com (click the "old website" link) and www.stoppingpower.net in the test bed forum.

Thanks guys.

Dave

Thanks again.

I just spent a couple hours over there reading and learned a few things. The cats who put that together impress me as really knowing their stuff. Based on what they say, I'll definately stick with M193 and would recommend M193 in all twist rate barrels for home defense. Anyone who uses an AR for self defense would do well spending some time over there.

Per their recommendation and test results, stay away from the Wolf ****. Just because it is 55 gr. fmj, that doesn't mean that it's M193.

Here's some information from probably the best credentialed terminal ballistics guy around at this time, Dr. Gary Roberts:

5.56 mm Duty Loads - M4Carbine.net Forums

Read it carefully and you should get lots of questions answered by a true professional (and not an ammo salesman).

Wolf is fine for plinking and recreational shooting just wouldn't want it in the mag for defense!

Dr Roberts is pretty good but much of the ammunition he likes is simply not available to average citizens these days. Hopefully it will improve in the future. Not everyone agrees with his findings but terminal ballistics people NEVER seem to fully agree with each other. It's a pretty complex science with so many variables it's no wonder they can't agree.

The other thing is the use you're putting the ammo to. We don't share the same needs in home defense as a soldier in the field or even a policeman on patrol. For home defense we may not even want the barrier penetration a police officer wants for instance. We might be living in an apartment or with close neighbors. I live in a boat! My needs are different from many others here.

So, we need to research multiple sources and tailor our choices to our needs. It's never one shoe fits all. Me, I'm happy with M193 for my set of circumstances and have a little Cor-bon OTM just in case!

elcruisr, I just wanted to salute you for achieving the life-on-a-boat milestone!

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I'll drink to that one!!!! Sounds good to me!!!

55gr ball will hit hard, tumble a bit, then come apart with great force.

I recently saw pics of someone shot through the thigh with 55gr ball from an AR. The hole left in the thigh was fist sized, as the temporary cavity didn't close much. The shock from the temporary cavity had enough force to break the femur.

I'm of the mind that if that hit centermass, it would be over pretty quick.

For a "better than average" load, I like the Hornady V Max 55gr.

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If you're shootin' at 200 yards and claiming self defense-you must know a pretty good lawyer amigo . That being said-if you are using a 223 for self defense, I would hope you are close enough that the bullet just don't matter.

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Again, distance can depend on circumstances. Take us poor mariners. At sea trouble can rear it's head at that distance if you are playing in the wrong part of the world. 'course I won't be much in need of a lawyer there...

Seriously folks, life aboard is WAY safer than life on land. My wife and I spent 12 years aboard until she developed severe multiple sclerosis. We came back on land and I discovered three things. Land people are crazy, people in wheelchairs are targets for scumbags and we both could not adapt back to dirt living. So we're back in a smaller boat that she's OK on and a wee bit better prepared for land sharks now.

If any of you folks really want the water life it can take WAY less money than you think and it's WAY better than you might think. Just in a few places in the world security is dealt with at a little longer range.

But back to 5.56 for me. To stop a threat on the water I have it on good, experienced authority that several hits to the outboard or into the engine compartment with 55 gr 5.56 will generally ruin the further functioning of the propulsion plant. All it takes is a hit to a vital electrical or fuel component. It easily penetrates the thin skin of small craft or an outboard cowling. Sorta makes fols hug the bilge to.

Since no one else mentioned it... Make sure that your upper on an AR actually is a 5.56mm one and doesn't have a commercial .223 chamber or some sort of funky out of spec chamber if firing 5.56mm ammunition. If you have a .223 chamber, don't fire 5.56mm ammunition in your rifle. Usually nothing bad happens, but every now and again, something does.

For quite some time, before I ended up with two 1:7 twist firearms, I'd keep the magazine in the rifle of my 1:9 carbines and 1:12 rifle loaded with relatively light Federal JHP ammunition. It might under penetrate, but the gelatin tests I'd seen when I'd bothered to look it up suggested that it might make a mess.

Later, I just filled most of my mags with Prvi's M193 type fmj, which I ended up with a lot of. I still keep some magazines loaded in one place (plus a 1000rds on strippers in a can) of "real" M855 green tip. ( I don't have access to M955 or I'd keep some handy.) Little better range, and a little better penetration under certain circumstances with the green tip stuff, esp since I no longer have my old SP1 to worry about. Some people keep it as their primary loading, but I don't have enough of it and it's expensive lately.

If I could afford to stockpile it, I'd probably use Hornady TAP simply because it tends to be more consistent than bulk pack or government contract FMJ.

I found the pictures I referenced. I'll post a link below. To some, it will be quite graphic, and I'd warn that if you are sensitive to such things, that you do not follow the link. If mods object, please delete. As is normal, some folks say that there is no way this was a 223...

Last chance to not click...
Why you do not want to get shot with an M16...(Warning: Disturbing photograph)

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