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  #1  
Old 08-04-2009, 03:50 PM
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Default 110 grain jhp or 125 grain jhp

I am looking for an good home defense load for my .6 model 686. Since 2008 the silly jhp bann in austria is lightend and as I am the member of shooting club i can get now the "evil" jhps. Here in austria it would be possible to get some 110 jhps from remington and an 125 grain jhp also from remington. Which bullet weight would be the better chocie for an sd scenario or is there no differnce in performance at all?

Thx for the infos in advance

Greetings from Austria.
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Old 08-04-2009, 04:01 PM
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Greetings from the States. I really don't think there would be to much difference between the two. If there is somebody will chime in to let me know i am wrong. If it were up to me I would buy some of each and see which one is more accurate and go with that one. I think both of them are good rounds for home defense.


snakeman
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Old 08-04-2009, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snakeman32 View Post
Greetings from the States. I really don't think there would be to much difference between the two. If there is somebody will chime in to let me know i am wrong. If it were up to me I would buy some of each and see which one is more accurate and go with that one. I think both of them are good rounds for home defense.


snakeman

Thx for your answer. Mayby the 110 grain rounds have less recoil then the 125 grain version, but I can handle the recoil of the full power rounds. I had the chance to test some federal 125 grain jhps from an s&w 627 when I have visited an buddy in germany. And the recoil was not a problem, it was stiff, but still controlable.
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Old 08-04-2009, 05:49 PM
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I'd rather have the 125s than the 110s, but I'd opt for the 145 Silvertip or Win/Fed/Rem 158 JHPs over either the 110 or the 125 if i could get them.
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Old 08-04-2009, 05:53 PM
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Remington 125 gr. SJHPs (R357M1) are one of the most successful fighting handgun rounds on the planet and you need look no further. The 110s are good, but Remington dropped bullet weight and velocity to create a milder shooting round.

I run R357M1 in four of my guns and have absolutely no interest in using anything else in those guns.
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Old 08-05-2009, 05:09 AM
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I see. Thx for your infos. Then I will use the 125 grain jhps as my primery defense load. They are also quite ecomonical. I would also be possible to get some federal 158 grain jhps at a good price.
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Old 08-05-2009, 05:42 AM
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I have tried different weights through the years but keep returning to the 125 - good round!!!!
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Old 08-06-2009, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChinaSeaSailor View Post
I have tried different weights through the years but keep returning to the 125 - good round!!!!


Thx for your feedback. I have allready orederd some 125 grain remington jhps at my local gunstore. They should arive next week.
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Old 08-06-2009, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAT Lt. View Post
I'd rather have the 125s than the 110s, but I'd opt for the 145 Silvertip or Win/Fed/Rem 158 JHPs over either the 110 or the 125 if i could get them.
Here's a bit of test data:

Part III. FBI Ammunition Tests Data:

.357 Magnum 125 grain Remington Golden Saber JHP, 2/9/93:
Penetration Expansion Penetration Expansion
S&W M19
4" 1220 fps 14.40" 0.56" 20.55" 0.48"


.357 Magnum 125 grain Federal JHP, 7/27/90:
Penetration Expansion Penetration Expansion
S&W M13
3" 1265 fps 10.65" 0.49" 11.75" 0.51"


.357 Magnum 145 grain Winchester Silvertip JHP, 2/21/89:
Penetration Expansion Penetration Expansion
S&W M13
3" 1166 fps 15.80" 0.58" 12.90" 0.64"


.357 Magnum 158 grain Federal JHP, 2/28/91:
Penetration Expansion Penetration Expansion
S&W M19
4" 1200 fps 16.50" 0.50" 15.90" 0.64"


.357 Magnum 158 grain Federal HydraShok JHP, 7/14/89:
Penetration Expansion Penetration Expansion
S&W M13
3" 1183 fps 24.70" 0.37" 34.50" 0.46"

The first set of 2 numbers are bare Gelatin and the second set 4 layer denim.

I want more penetration than the 125 Federals gave and the 158 Hyrashok's went too far the other way. These are 2 loads held in high esteem that I don't have any desire for at all. The Silvertips and 158 Federals look pretty good - the 125GS had trouble with material.

Pretty well supports the above quoted poster's preferences - I concur.
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Old 08-06-2009, 05:31 PM
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There's also a lot missing in that data like recovered weight, secondary fragmentation, muzzle energy, in addition to some of the loads being fired from different guns with different length barrels.

In a recent podcast at proarms.podbean.com , Keith Jones talked about the street sucess that the 125 gr. Federal JHP amassed when his agency (my guess is Indianapolis) used it. It flat out works. You can overthink this stuff folks. That said, I agree that the Silvertip is a great load in a caliber full of excellent choices.
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Old 08-06-2009, 05:47 PM
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Thx for the intersting data. I am sure that the winchester silvertipp is great load, but these stuff is very hard to get here in austria. The only street proven loads I can get here in austria are the 110 or 125 grain jhp. I would be no problem to get some 158 grain soft points from european companies like fiocchi or sellier and bellot, but I doubt that an 158 grain will expand much, so I'd rather stick to the 125 grain jhp rounds for sd. But I am sure that the s&b and fioochi 158 grain softpoints are decent hunting loads.

Last edited by agent00; 08-07-2009 at 03:58 AM.
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:58 PM
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Agent, if you check the thread I started titled Perma-Gel Test Results tomorrow, I'll post the results of my 6" 686/R357M1 Perma-Gel tests.

Last edited by flop-shank; 08-06-2009 at 10:09 PM.
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  #13  
Old 08-07-2009, 01:57 AM
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I'm a big fan of heavy bullets so if I had to choose between a 110gr and a 125gr bullets it would be the latter. Besides, the 125gr .357 Magnum is the "Classic Man Stopper" backed up by a lot of real world data. (along with the 230gr .45 Auto)

When I carry .357 Magnum ammo it's either 145gr Silvertips or a .158gr GDHP. (I know you said Silvertips are too hard to find)
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Old 08-07-2009, 03:24 AM
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Between the two, I'd opt for the 125 grain JHP over the 110 grain. Better penetration, and I'd want my sights set for the heavier load, also more useful against big dogs and dangerous wild animals.

The Federal 158 grain is a fine all-around load, but the 125 will open faster in humans. Shoot a big boar or a bear, and the 158 grain might make the difference in penetration.

But if you're using this at home, do you really want .357 Magnum blast and flash indoors? I use Plus P .38 Special ammo for home defense. Currently, I have Remington 158 grain lead HP's, Federal 129 grain Hydra-Shok, and Speer/CCI Gold Dot 125 grain, all hollowpoints. I think all will suffice for frontal shots, but the lead HP penetrates best if one has to shoot a really big man, and might not get frontal hits. (Most civilian shootings involve frontal shots.)

How are Austrian laws on self defense? Can you get a license to carry a handgun at all, even when hunting?

T-Star
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Old 08-07-2009, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star View Post
Between the two, I'd opt for the 125 grain JHP over the 110 grain. Better penetration, and I'd want my sights set for the heavier load, also more useful against big dogs and dangerous wild animals.

The Federal 158 grain is a fine all-around load, but the 125 will open faster in humans. Shoot a big boar or a bear, and the 158 grain might make the difference in penetration.

But if you're using this at home, do you really want .357 Magnum blast and flash indoors? I use Plus P .38 Special ammo for home defense. Currently, I have Remington 158 grain lead HP's, Federal 129 grain Hydra-Shok, and Speer/CCI Gold Dot 125 grain, all hollowpoints. I think all will suffice for frontal shots, but the lead HP penetrates best if one has to shoot a really big man, and might not get frontal hits. (Most civilian shootings involve frontal shots.)

How are Austrian laws on self defense? Can you get a license to carry a handgun at all, even when hunting?

T-Star

Well, here in austria it only legal to carry a handgun for hunting, but not for self defense. And thx for your tipp, it would be a great idea considering +p 38 special loads, they would be a much better choice for an indoor shooting scenario. I will try to get the loads you mentionted.

@Flop-Shank Thx for the tipp, I'll do that.

Last edited by agent00; 08-07-2009 at 04:00 AM.
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Old 08-07-2009, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star View Post
But if you're using this at home, do you really want .357 Magnum blast and flash indoors?
Yes (actually .44 magnum in my case). I want the .357s fight stopping power on my side and it is a better performer in real world fights than .38 +P. Evan Marshall often says muzzle flash and blast are range issues and not gunfight issues. You'll barely hear the gun and your adversary will suffer from the flash more than you ever will, if he notices it much at all. YMMV
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Old 08-07-2009, 10:14 AM
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flop-shank you'r probably righ, that's an good opineon. Buy the way I have phoned my local gunstore and the have only 38 special fmj rounds, not realy sutable for defense, so I have to stick with the 357 mag rounds . 38 special special is no at very popular claliber here in austria, most of the revolver shooters are using either 357 mag or 44 mag. So I will stick the the R357M1.

Last edited by agent00; 08-07-2009 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 08-07-2009, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
So I will stick the the R357M1.
Most of the "new and better" SD ammo out there will cost you over a Dollar a round and will probably do no better than the Remington ammo you are buying. Those "rose peddle" bullets expand quite well, especially at the velocities generated from a .357 Magnum.
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Old 08-07-2009, 03:28 PM
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Barrel lengths were 3 - 4" any difference from that won't make much difference. What does muzzle energy matter? Secondary fragmentation? Marshall & Sanow (and Ayoob has helped propagate this stuff) have really made a mess of self defense rounds and have never risen to any of the challenges others in their field have presented to them (I wonder why?). The 125 works very well as long as it gets there, which it occasionally hasn't done. Look, people's reactions to being shot are completely unpredictable; stopping power, energy dump, one shot stops etc is just nonsense. A State Trooper here was hit with a 32ACP and never fought back. A perp took (2) 12GA slugs the chest and ran away from the scene before expiring - he chose to flee; he could have fought instead! (I'll give Ayoob credit for one thing in LFI 1, he works long and hard to show his students how all of these rounds have failed to "stop" in the street) All we can do is choose a round that is reliable in our weapon and gives us penetration in a reasonable range - I'll leave that definition up to you but the current FBI requirements seem good to me. That leaves loads like the 125 Federal out in the cold. Use them if you like - I'll pass. I'm not trying to put anyone down here, I just don't want people out there walking around with unrealistic expectations.
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Old 08-07-2009, 03:49 PM
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The .357's vaunted reputation was and is made on the full effort 125 grn jacketed or semi jacketed hollow point. Specifically Remington’s 125 grn. sjhp as other posters have already noted. Though there are now other good 1450 fps loads available.

If you can get Remington’s 125 grn sjhp it’s a full effort 1450 fps load and a good choice. Their 125 grn Golden Saber load is only a 1250 fps offering and I would not choose it.

FYI there are a lot of weak 125 loads out there (not 1450 fps) that I’d avoid.

The 110 grn loads are all to be avoided if you can handle the full effort 125’s.

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Old 08-07-2009, 04:33 PM
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Thx again for the answers. I have done some furhter investigations on some only shops, and it would be also possibel to get some hornady 158 grain xtp rounds. What do you think about that stuff, good or bad?
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Old 08-07-2009, 08:07 PM
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XTPs tend to penetrate super deep. Usually too deep in my opinion.
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Old 08-07-2009, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4inch357 View Post
Barrel lengths were 3 - 4" any difference from that won't make much difference. What does muzzle energy matter? Secondary fragmentation? Marshall & Sanow (and Ayoob has helped propagate this stuff) have really made a mess of self defense rounds and have never risen to any of the challenges others in their field have presented to them (I wonder why?). The 125 works very well as long as it gets there, which it occasionally hasn't done. Look, people's reactions to being shot are completely unpredictable; stopping power, energy dump, one shot stops etc is just nonsense.
Energy dump isn't nonsense. When handguns perform more like rifles (velocity and energy wise) their gunshots behave more like rifles. Look at the gruesome pictures in the link provided in the recent 5.56 ammo thread. All that was done by a 55 gr. bullet. I have seen an exit wound on a decent sized woodchuck that was a tear of approximately 5" long courtesy of my favorite carry revolver, a 5" 44. magnum.

Secondary fragmentation can affect a bullets performance greatly. Those frags can hit things the bullet never touched and could well cause a stop by piercing something vital. They will also increase blood loss. I've learned that bullets that fragment oftentimes have a smaller rec. dia. and by pushing a smaller front penetrate deeper.
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Old 08-08-2009, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flop-shank View Post
XTPs tend to penetrate super deep. Usually too deep in my opinion.


I see. that sounds that the xtp would be an great hunting load. I will start hunting next year und so austria it possible to encounter wildboar, but an 158 grain jsp or an hardcast lead round would be still better for boar defense. Some hunters in my area even say that nothing less 44 mag should be used for boar defense... but I am still the opineon that the 357 mag should work with propper shot placement..

By the way I have already ordered some 125 grain remington jhps for defense.. They should arrive in 2 or 3 weeks.
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Old 08-08-2009, 07:14 AM
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I tested the .44 mag. 180 gr. XTP. Results are in the Perma-Gel thread. Also we've been discussing XTPs in the 180 gr. .44 magnum thread, as well as others if you do a search.

I'll let the hog hunters weigh in on what works for boar. Don't forget that 180 gr. .357s are available too.
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Old 08-08-2009, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flop-shank View Post
I tested the .44 mag. 180 gr. XTP. Results are in the Perma-Gel thread. Also we've been discussing XTPs in the 180 gr. .44 magnum thread, as well as others if you do a search.

I'll let the hog hunters weigh in on what works for boar. Don't forget that 180 gr. .357s are available too.
Thx for the tipp. I will do a seach on the threads you have mentioned. And yes I knot that there are some decent 180 grain hunting loads in 357 mag available, I have only to check if i can get them here in austria. The winchester partition for example should be an good load. another intersting load would be the federal cast core bullet, but as I have allready mentioned I don't know if that stuff is avialable here in country, I hope so, if not I have to stick with an s&b or fioochi 158 grain softpoint or with the horady xpt.

Last edited by agent00; 08-08-2009 at 07:40 AM.
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