I for some reason am very interested in the 38 Super Police load.

Do any of you guys still reload this load or have factory cartridges?
I have the Magnus component bullet and vintage data as well as two
boxes of factories in excellent shape. It seems to be a decent load-but low on penetration capabilities. At least on heavy
stuff.

Was this load any good? I know we have the FBI load and the Speer
Gold Dot- but I can't help but think this might still be a decent load
from a snub. Do any of you guys still actually carry it?

I found a box of Winchester 200 gr. ammo a while back at a gun show. Its velocity is necessarily very slow with the heavy bullet; I chronographed a few rounds and it made 600 fps out of a 3" barrel Model 66. The bullet has a blunt, round nose. I have no idea how effective it would be for defensive use.

Many of the gun writers of the day didn't think much of it. Skeeter talked about it bouncing off car glass. The Brits used something similar in WWII and it was not well thought of either.

A friend gave me some of his cast 195-gr RNL bullets - with reloading data from the '60s and 2400, I was able to get them going 840 fps from a snub. No factory loads were anywhere near that, I understand.

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Don't waste your time, Dan. The two loads you mentioned in your post are about as good as it gets. 200 gr. is too heavy for caliber and a wimpier version of 158 gr. RNL.

195-gr .38 Spl handloads with 2400

1 7/8" M 844.2 fps/ES 35.83/SD 12.77
2 1/8" M 871.2/ES 28.29/SD 13.49
3" M 941.0/ES 32.50/SD 15.79
4" M 973.2/ES 16.65/SD 6.32
6" M 1020/ES 22.02/SD 9.53

And that wasn't even the max load in the manual (an old one, though). Frankly, I'm happy to have this load available for use . . . should penetrate like a SOB.

As I said above, though, factory loadings don't come near this.

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No doubt you'll get super-duper deep penetration.

My thinking is that if I were inclined to use a non expanding bullet with deep penetration in mind, I would rather use Buffalo Bore's 150 gr. hard cast wadcutter (there is a gelatin test of said load on the Brass Fetcher website BTW). I have no use for round nose bullets since they leave ice pick-like wounds (Jim Cirillo didn't care for them and that says plenty IMO) and I see no advantage to a bullet heavier than 158 grains. As the Brass Fetcher test shows, there's more penetration than you will ever need against bipeds in a 150 gr. bullet. The only bullet style that I think would tend to track straighter than a DEWC would be a HBWC. Wadcutters tend to leave full caliber holes. Lobo and I disagreed on this a while back. IIRC he saw an autopsy of a wadcutter shootee and the wound was very severe according to him. Perhaps he'll share his thoughts on this.

I also have a place in my heart (not literally please !!!!! ) for the good old SWC, the great general purpose bullet. Anything but RNL, please.

I picked up a full box of the Winchester version about two years ago. I too am interested in the older police loads, including the 110gr Super Vel JHP, and the Federal +P+ 110gr. From a nostalgic perspective, I think they are pretty neat.

I almost wonder if these would be better suited for winter carry when heavy coats / layers need to be defeated. I know - there are better modern loads, but if you're feeling nostalgic, a snub-nosed model 10 loaded with these, and carried in a Lawrence or Baker holster would be fun.

Red, my tests have shown me that heavy clothing (four layer denim) does little to stop bullets. It may affect their expansion and thus how deep they penetrate, but oftentimes bullets penetrate deeper through heavy cloth.

A relative of mine about 30 years ago carried the 200 gr super police round as a duty round. He was a federal LE officer. He shot two individuals with these rounds which worked just fine for him.

Shot placement is the key in self-dense

I've always been fascinated by these rounds. I used to carry them in an old nickel Model 36, but I lost custody of both the gun and the rounds in a divorce a couple of decades ago. There was something very reassuring about dropping those big blunt rounds into that little cylinder.

There are probably better loads for your .38 Special, but then again there are probably better options than a .38 altogether. I bet they'll work just fine.

One of the details I remember from Joe Wambaugh's great non-fiction book "The Onion Field" is that LAPD Officer Ian Campbell was shot with either his own gun, or his partner's, and that the fatal bullets were 200 grain "Super Police" loads. Both of those guys carried six inch guns, even in plainclothes, so maybe that longer barrel help boost the velocity a bit.

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I do reload a 200gr LRN bullet but not in the .38 Special but in the .38 S&W to replicate the old British 38/200 ammo. It's a hoot to shoot from my old Enfield No.2 revolver. I never had the urge to load those bullets in a .38 Special, well, not until now...

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flop, (as you know) I agree on the benefits of heavily loaded full wadcutters and load a lot of them (both 148-gr hardcasts at over 900 fps from snubs and now Skip's 160-grainers at 840 fps from a snub) in a defensive role. They don't penetrate like my 195-grainers (at 840 fps from snubs), though - bullet-shape, as you point out, is a big deal - and mass doesn't hurt.

The penetration wanted for a defensive load against a person (perfectly suited to a tailored hardcast WC loading) and that suited for a black bear, though, are different. I use the 195-gr hardcast handloads when I really want to drill a hole.

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I used the Lyman 195 RN at around 750/800 fps out of a S&W mod. 60 to shoot a whitetail doe from a treestand. Shot almost straight down at about 5 feet and broke the spine, one lung, penatrated the shoulder bone and the bullet continued down the off side foreleg shatttering it for it's whole lenght and exited just above the knee joint and into the frozen ground never to be recovered. The deer never moved out of it's tracks because of the spine hit and expired shortly after the shot.

Those that believe that slow heavy bullets don't work should read about the horrable wounds inflicted by arms in the Civil war by 58 cal. Minie's traveling at 1000 fps or less. When hitting bone they tend to remove or shatter large chunks resulting in amputations in humans. Modern medicine may save some of the body parts but it's hard to function with 6 inches of someone's femur displaced in their leg and even less likely with part of their spine laying on the floor behind them.

Like all bullets, they work with proper placement. I don't intend on shooting at windshields but I do load these heavyweights in my house guns knowing that they will work.

Kirmdog

Kirm:
You certainly have a unique and descriptive way of writing. Thanks for the mental images.
Ed

Don, thanks for posting that one.

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Erich, I thought you might have bears or barrier penetration in mind with that load. The thought of bears can even make me start turning into a Facklerite!

Thanks for all the replies. I went and tried this load on some items.
The bullets bounced off the outside of an a/c window unit and only went through the outer tin of a water heater- yes both were in a junk heap.
Not too impressed with them.

Now you know why they have little following and are no longer in production.

Yes sir when i bought those 200gr 38s, an older gentleman at the gun show noticed them and said they were not what they were cracked up to be. He was right. In all fairness, the Remington load of it seems better than the Win. My dad's 1946 M&P loves them accuracy wise though. I was shocked it hit point of aim with them AND 158gr lrn.

This thread had me rumbling through my older Gun Digests. I re-read an article (Big Bullets for Little Guns in the 1972 edition) discussing heavy bullets for the .38 Special snub. One thing caught my attention: the writer stated that Hatcher's formula to predict penetration (real testing done in 7/8" pine boards) worked on every load tested, with the sole exception of the 200 grain .38 Special. The 200 grain bullets tumbled through the boards.

One of my buddies carried the factory 200 grainers in the late 60's, until he found they wouldn't penetrate a 55 gallon oil drum.

Jerry,
Do you have a link to that article. I have heard about it for years, always wanted to read it. I thought the 200 grain would be good in
a 38, but once I found out it bounced off everything I was not too keen on it. I might try and handload it up to 900 fps in my M28. That might be
a good pig load.

If you really want to run a load that heavy, at least use a wadcutter so that you get a full caliber hole and have more case capacity for the same OAL. You might need to have a mold made.

I just found this and memories came back. Twenty years ago I was a federal LEO and was issued this round to be carried in my issued Ruger Service-Six .38 Special. Our qualification course included some shots at fifty yards (either 12 or 18, can't remember now) and I swear, at 50 yards we could see the bullets arc toward the target! Fortunately, I never had to fire that weapon except for qualification. I didn't have a lot of faith in the round.

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Gary

Dan, there's not a link.

I have the '72 Gun Digest in my collection. The only handload mentioned is the Lyman #358430 (195 grain) over 3.8 grains of Unique which duplicates the factory load.

Jerry

I would have to question the intended use for these 200 grain loads, it could very well be that there might be a better bullet weight for the 38 Specail depending on the intended target.

When I was a kid I was allowed to shoot my 22 caliber pellet gun at any time around my dads house but I could only shoot my 22 rim fire when my dad and I were at a farm that belonged to a friend. Well kids being kids I use to shoot all kinds of animals around the house to keep them out of our garden. Song birds were off limits according to my dads rules but Starlings, Sparrows, Crows, Possums, Raccoons and Rabbits and Squirrels in season. For the birds I found that the 22 ca. pellets from Crossman worked fine but for the bigger animals like Rabbit, Possum and Raccoon the pellet left much to be desired. Being the inquisitive type I took a few 22 LR's and pryed the bullets from them. Seeing that the bullet was to large in diameter for a 22 cal pellet rifle I did a hack job and filed them down in diameter so that they could fit down the barrel of my old Crossmam. Our neighbor had a board on board fence and it had a convenient dark spot on our side that made a perfect target that I had used many times to check my setting on the 4X scope that sat on top of the old Crossman. I stood back about 20 feet with one of these wittled down 40 grain bullets in the loading gate, took aim and fired at the fences dark spot. I could see that the 40 grain bullet hit quite a bit lowwer than the ussual pellets I shot out of this gun. I could even see the bullet arch towards the 1 inch thick fence board through the scope on my gun but the diference was where this 1 inch board on the fence always stopped the light 12/15 grain pellet traveling around 500 FPS the 40 grain bullet drilled a hole straight through that board. It seemed strange to me that a bullet that looked as if I could snach it out of the air would go compleatly through a board that would stop a pellet going fast enough that I couldn't see it. I used the few other 40 grain bullets on a couple of raccoons and rabbits and my penetration problems were over. Where their bodies would stop the lighter pellet on body hits the heavier 40 grain bullet zipped right through with no problem.

Sorry for the long story but I just wanted to illustrate a point. While shooting through car bodies or other barriers the 200 grain 38 Special doesn't do that well as pointed out by not penetrating air conditioners and hot water tanks. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't penetrate well on living tissue. As far as seeing the bullet in flight, many pistol shots that shoot outside swear that they can see 45 ACP rounds flying down range but the fight stopping abilities of this round even in FMJ are well documented and these too will bounce off of windshields and car bodies unless hit square, that's supposedly why the 38 Super was develoded to help out the Fed's back in the 1920's to shoot through car bodies of fleeing bad guys. My arrows shot out of my recurve don't travel any faster that about 180 FPS and I can watch them fly all the way to a deer's vitals and will penetrate compleatly every time even when I hit bone in the shoulder. Fact, a 20 pound bag of sand held up by a lenght of rope will stop a 150 grain 30-06 bullet every time but an arrow out of a hunting weight bow will go compleatly though that same bag of sand. But by the same token, a 30-06 when shot at a frame house from the outside will penetrate most walls if not ALL the walls in the house but my arrow will be stopped in the first layer of siding with only about 8 inches of penetration.

The point being, one has to be careful as to the test media that is used to get an accurate reading on how a bullet will work. For pig hunting I feel that there are better bullets avalible especialy if you are using a M28 that has the capabilities of using the 357 Mag. If you are using the 38 Special for LE work and you may have to shoot through car bodies or extended ranges like 50 yards then I feel that here also there are better choices of bullets. But for a self defence wepon that is going to be under the normal 7 yards that most shootouts occur the 200 grain 38 Special in my opinion is a pretty good one and if you can juice it up a little by handloading then so much the better.

Just my 2 cents.

Kirmdog

Dan,

I would look to using a 158 hard cast SWC for hogs. Some of the handloaders will be able to help you find a good bullet. The #358429 Lyman 173 Keith bullet would be my first choice, but it is too long for the cylinder of a Model 28 when it's seated and crimped in the proper groove. You can drive a 158 hardcast fast enough to penetrate most any animal.

Jerry

I once obtained a partial box of 200 grain Super Police factory ammunition and fired it up. Never chronographed any but my impression was that it was loaded with too mild a powder charge. It gave an odd but consistent "phuuh" sort of report and didn't recoil as much as a standard velocity 158 grain factory load in my observation.

I've related my 200 grain .38 Special hunting story before. Used a hand loaded 200 grain Remington lead round nose to take a small Texas whitetail buck at close range, the first deer I ever took with a handgun. He only took a few wobbly steps and dropped heavily. The Remington bullet was of very soft lead and apparently turned sideways during its travel through the chest cavity. There was a big smear of expanded lead on one side of the recovered bullet that was about the size of a dime yet the bullet retained substantially all its weight.

Used the maximum powder charge listed for the Lyman 195 grain cast bullet as published in their 46th manual. Clocked a little over 920 fps from the 8 3/8-inch Model 14 that was used to take the buck.

This load penetrated through six water filled plastic gallon milk jugs when fired from a 4-inch barrel.

I like the notion of the heavy slug for the .38 Special cartridge at performance levels that Erich is showing. A wide flat nose design would be superior to the round nose.

I purchased a large number of boxes of the Remington 200 grain component bullet on a close-out years ago. Had a great time playing with them. They were accurate for a couple of cylinders-full but leaded horribly. I thought they were all long gone but I found one last box amongst my stuff when we moved early last year. I'm saving it as a souvenir.






158 grain cast SWC, 170 grain Sierra "Silhouette" FMJ, and the 200 grain Remington RN lead which would be a dandy bullet if configured more like the SWC.

Perhaps we can start a new fad in .38 Special shooting. Use of heavy slugs.

I have always liked the thought of trying heavy bullets in the .38 SPL. I have always felt that NKJNUTS' 190gr WFN bullet would be a dandy bullet to try ahead of some 2400 from that old Lyman manual. I never tried this combo out of fear that I wouldn't be able to get this bullet to hit close to the sights of my M10. Which in turn would leave me with some great bullets and nothing to use them in.

+1 on the 190 grain WFN, it would be the best of both worlds.

When I cast the Lyman 195 grainers I use 30/1 mix which is darn soft. I'm a believer that soft bullets have some "bite" to them meaning that when they hit something they conform to it's shape rather than bouncing off to head in some other direction, the soft ones tend to push through whatever they hit tissue wise. This is what made the Civil War Minie's so devistating dispite their rather pointed shapes and that goes for the round lead ball also. When they hit bone they basicly wrap around it and remove a large section. I believe the 190 WFN and the 195 RN would do the same although a much smaller caliber than the 58's used in the Civil War. The 190 WFN would probably give a better entrance hole than the RN for self defence work.

Kirmdog

They are a great bullet - Jessie hooked me up with some once, and they really "look the business," as Bryan McGilvray would say.

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Kirm, I did the same thing; firing pulled .22 lr. bullets from a pellet gun. I resized mine by chambering them in my Ben Franklin (they were a very tight fit) and pumping the gun ten times and firing the bullets into the creek behind my dad's house. Usually the bullet would lodge in the bore and I'd have to pump the gun again to get the bullet to come out.

Once resized, I took some hunting. I remember shooting a squirrel at ~ thirty feet and dropping him dead with one shot. The bullet failed to penetrate his skin, but it crushed his ribs and must have trashed the inside of his chest.

You raise a good point about not penetrating steel drums doesn't necessrily mean a bullet won't penetrate flesh well.

Flop-shank;

I was cruder and used a file to whittle mine down, guess we both were just born and destane to be reloaders. Another round that is a known manstopper is the 12 ga. 00 buck, this load is also known to bounce off of windshields and car bodies when hit at an angle but leaves no questions when used against human flesh. I've never fired it at a steel drum but I would guess that it wouldn't fare to well at any distance besides real close. The 12 ga. would be my first choice for home defence if I know in advance that something is going to happen but I would use the #4 buck instead of the 00 buck load and I know the #4 buck isn't going to do much to the steel drum but then I've never been attacked by a steel drum to date.

BreakerDan;

If you have a Mod 28 and want to use the 200 grain RN then you should look at some of the older Lyman manuals. They show that they got over 1000 FPS with the 357 Mag and their 195 grain RN. I would think that anything approching 1050-1100 FPS would make a good "Pig" load you talk about if you have some 200 grain RN that you want to use up and don't mind shooting them in a 357. I have 2 mod 28's and they are one strong revolver design!

Kirmdog

Kirm,

FWIW the 12 gauge "low recoil" 00 buck rounds will punch through one side of a 55 gallon drum and dent the other side, at least the Winschester ones will, some Remington 3" 00 buck magnum loads punched through both sides of the drum. I wasn't testing 00 buck penetration, but had a new burn barrel and needed to ventilate it - distance about 30 feet, from a 870 with a 18" riot tube on it.

Good info to know, thanks. I do know that during the famous gunfight between the Feds and 2 bank robbers down in Florida (forgot the name of it but this is where they fighured out that 9mm just didn't do the trick) there was one LEO that emptied his shotgun into the front windshield and got failure to penetrate. I don't know the distance but I'm willing to bet it was more than 30 feet and I know it was at an acute angle from the side of the car at the occupants seated in the front seat.

Thanks again for the heads up on the low recoil 00 buck.

Kirmdog

The 200 grain bullet may be good for shooting and fun, but I certainly would not use a factory load for self defense. As reported, velocity is pretty slow. It may penetrate, but does not create much of a wound channel and if you expect any effectiveness, you will have to hit heart or brain. Might be better to shoot for hip bones than chest shots.

Just my .02 worth.

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Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102

Of course it is likely that one needs to hit the heart, spine, or brain with any handgun load in order for it to be truly effective.

Good hits are golden and bad hits are not to be depended upon.

I use the Lyman 358430 for my IDPA loads. One only needs 625 fps with a 200 grain bullet to make minor for SSR, and a 200 grain bullet at that speed is a lot more pleasant than a 158 grain bullet at nearly 800 fps (which is required to make minor with that weight). Its not that the 158 grain load is unpleasant, rather that the 200 grain load is so mild.

Just for fun, I decided to see if I could make major (825 fps+) in a .38 Special case with the 200 grain RNL. It was actually quite easy to do, and not a hard load to shoot. With HS6 I got an average of 875 fps, and with 2400 I got an average of 876 fps. I am sure both could have been pushed farther in my 4" 681, but I didn't see any need to do so.

The 200 grain RN is great because the RN profile is much easier to get into the chambers on reloads, and the bullet is very nose heavy, so if falls very nicely into the cylinder.

I really like the 200 grain bullet in .38 Special, but if I were to carry that weight for defense, I'd much rather have a SWC profile bullet loaded to the same 875fps velocity.

I have been loading a 195gr cast bullet from Hunter's Supply in both .38 Spl and .357 for several years.

They really work well and are accurate too...

Unfortunately, it seems the ammo makers sort of gave up on the heavier bullets...

While I like the nominal 170 gr LSWC Keith bullet, I think there is a lot of development that can be done with the 200 gr range bullet.

Chuck

Interesting thread. I've read much of the old literature regarding the 200 grain Super Police loads. Low velocity combined with the heavy, blunt, round nose bullet was part of the theory of effective stopping power once espoused by the Brits and which led them to the old 38-200 Webley load. One of the bennies of low velocity with the big bullet is presumed to be rather marginal stabilization leading to tumbling during penetration. There were many anecdotal reports of great effectiveness........but as use became more widespread things turned around and usage began to drop. It seems that the magic bullet was less magic than imagined.
Hatcher reported that his testing seemed to indicate that a 158 grain flat point would beat both the super police 200 grain and the standard round nose.....but he was quick to point out that pine boards were not flesh. The 200 grainers have worked-so have target wadcutters. For a bear I'd rather have a 173 grain Keith. For an intruder I'd rather have 150 grain wadcutters flying at 900fps plus or SWC HPs..... but they all work.....and they all fail.

I think a soft lead 200 grain SWCHP would be really interesting. Of course I have never seen 200 grain SWCHP, 200 grain SWCs exist, they are just not very common.

Seems I've stumbled into a discussion of my favorite subject--200 grain .38 loads!

Landric, I need to touch base with you on how you're loading to obtain those velocities. Those will hit with authority! Maybe I'll dust off my Forster hollow-pointer after all & use it on some of my Mt. Baldy 200g LSWC-Ks. Also, I need to try that 30-1 mix to cast softer bullets more likely to expand, then drill the noses of some of my 358430s. I think my eventual SD/HD selection will be SAECO #351, a 200g FNPB, cast soft, hollow-pointed. Best combo of weight, shape, sotness, and expansion. Thoughts?

When I recently tested a few factory W-W 200g loads provided by another shooter, they chrono'ed 605fps from my 2" snubbie. One round was 681fps from a 4" revolver. A round from the snubbie penetrated 5 gallon milk jugs at 10', then veered off to miss jug #6, dent a 2x12, and carom away.

When I tested 200g LSWC-K at 718fps from 2" bbl., it bored straight thru 6 jugs, drove into the 2x12 up to the driving band--knocking down the board--then fell out. As someone noted, penetration in different media can be tricky; I suspect that the 200g lead .38 is good on soft stuff, not hard stuff.

My current defense load for standard pressure .38s and snubbies is the LSWC-K load at 750fps from a 4" bbl. I'll see what hollowpointing in soft lead will do, as soon as I get my hands on some pure lead. (I have only WW at this time.)

As another poster mentioned, the Brits put stock in the wounding properties of soft lead bullets, both in .455 and the subsequent .380/200. More modern studies often indicate the same thing. Notably, Buffalo Bore touts the softness of some of its defense loads. . .and I imagine it's because he buys some of the same logic.

LA Man, I'm sending you a PM on the subject.

I have some of the original "dogbone" Rem 200 gr ammo and have not shot any of it. In reading Elmer Keith, he achieved the velocities and pentration with a 160gr bullet which he thought was about right for the caliber. In fact, he liked his 160gr load in the 38/44 better than his 357 Mag loads! As soon as I located a source for the 160gr, I plan on working up a load similiar to Elmers for use in one of my Heavy Duties.
Bill

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Bill,

Rim Rock Bullets, Premium Cast Lead Bullets makes the bullets used by Buffalo Bore.

Their 158 grain hard cast SWC is a great bullet. While it's not exactly a Keith, it is a very close substitute.

Best,
Jerry

Thanks Jerry for the info! I've already checked them out!
Bill

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Bill

Leadhead makes a real Keith bullet that weighs 168gr IIRC.

It might be what you want... very accurate and very high quality bullets.

FWIW

Chuck

I agree. Leadhead bullets are true Keith style bullets, and very accurate. I have played a bit with the 168 grn (PMK357-168) and had very good luck with it.

My only regret is they are expensive. Currently 121$ for a 1000 of them.

By the way, they are located in St John Kansas. Maybe you can pop over there and save yourself some shipping?

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SWCA 1646

It seems that the 200 grain police load is too heavy for the 38 special. In 357 it might but fun to see what kind of loads could be worked up for it. Does anyone know of any load data?

How do you figure, "too heavy" for the .38 Spl? My handloads (using old published data and referenced above) work great.