I just purchased a mechanically perfect, but aesthetically challenged M36 (no dash, not +P). I bought a box of the Personal Defense - Low Recoil Federal Premium 110 grain Hydra-Shok, JHP and wondered what you guys thought of the round. It will be primarily a glove box, night stand, walk the dog piece. Thanks!

Personally I don't like 110 gr loads in 38, too light a bullet at not enough velocity. If it were mine I'd carry 158 LSWCHP +P's, a few +P's now and then will not hurt your model 36. Hydra Shoks are a good, solid design that has been performing for years, the 110 load has light recoil.

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Sie vis pacem parabellum

I agree with NFRAME 357. A .38 oughta be shot with 158 grain bullets. That makes POI =POA. The best is the old FBI LSWCHP +P. SAVE it for social occasions, and practice with bunny fart wadcutters. John

I agree with the other two posters--also check out Speer 135+P short barrel gold dots.

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Aaron Terry

I don't fully agree with the others. There are good 110 gr. loads, I'm just not sure of the one you've chosen. Use what shoots to POA. As LT JL said, that will likely be the FBI load, and I agree with the advice to use that load if that's the case. If POA/POI is dead on with 110s use DPX and never look back. As was also suggested, Speer Short Barrel 135 is good too. Use what hits where it should. 110 gr. bullets can penetrate fine if they are designed well.

Thanks guys and gals. I appreciate the feedback. With any luck, these 110gr rounds will last me a good long time, but I'll keep eyes pealed for something a bit hotter in the meantime.

I have personal experience with this EXACT load you are talking
about. It is absolutely the most awful 38 special load made.
I would not trust my life or anyone else to this pathetic loading!

I had to euthanize a dog that was hit by a car with this load from
a full service size pistol with a 4" barrel. I have killed over 100
feral hogs in traps and many injured dogs with everything from .22 to 45 Colt-I know exactly where to put a slug to make it instant. Anyway, I used the 38 110gr Federal just once for this! When I tried to shoot the dog, the pistol was about 6" from its head at a straight angle-no sharp angles or glancing shots. The first shot did not penetrate the dog's skull. Neither did the second. At this point, the dog tried to get up. It took two more to the chest to make it go down. Not the way to do things!!!!
I later decided to shoot this round into a wax candle just to see what it did. It expanded nicely, but didnt make it through the candle! By the way, the velocity on that is about 770! That is way too slow.


Use 38+P Remington 158 LSWC-HP. The effect of the 158 load is excellent. Avoid anything less than 125gr in 38s at all cost. Your Model 36 will handle +p just fine. They are tuff little guns.

In my case, I was using a full size 38- the 110 is even worse in a snub nose. The velocity will be much lower.

Dan,
Thanks for the feedback and for sharing your experience, I do appreciate it.

That box shouldn't last you a long time. You should go out and fire it, and several more like, and learn how your gun performs with it and where the bullets hit.

Hydrashoks are getting to be old technology. The HSTs or Gold Dots are usually considered to be a better design by the folks who test such things.

If you're on a budget, look for the Rem/UMC 125 gr JHP +P that comes in 100rd value packs from Walmart. Old technology, but the lead is relatively soft (or at least seems softer than the comparable WWB offering that is actually more expensive). The nice thing about these is that one can afford to actually practice with and use them.

S&W has told different people different things as to whether a Model 36 has an official blessing for +P use. I've never cared and only use +P. If I wear a gun out somehow, I'll throw it out and get a new one.

If you can't find any decent JHPs or can't afford them, there's always the option of using SWCs or wadcutters.

After reading BreakerDan's review of this ammo I was rather troubled as I bought a box of this and had it in the cylinders of both my 442 and 642.

So I went to the range today and fired off all of them.

Pathetic isn't the word.

I could literally see the projectiles as they flew downrange. Not really that much of an anomoly as I can see .45 ACP and other slow movers on occasion. But these LOOKED to be VERY slow. Too slow.

With that aside, what really troubled me was the fail to fires that I had with three out of the 20 rounds. Good, solid primer strikes with no bang to follow.

Bought 100 rounds of Federal Nyclad plus P and didn't look back. These performed well and had good accuracy. And to tell you the truth, the Nyclads didn't have much more if any more recoil than the so called low recoil rounds.

I won't buy the low recoil Federal load again. Worst ammunition I have fired in quite some time. I would strongly urge the OP to at a minimum test fire his rounds and see for yourself.

As soon as I can find some of the Speer short barreled Gold Dots, I am going to go with that.

Great post, BreakerDan.

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Now go make God proud...

I don't keep these 110's loaded, but I do keep them in my speed strips. I'm going to have to rethink these. Thanks for the input folks.

I agree with most the other posts. Another good FBI load is from Buffalo Bore product #1711388. This is the FBI load and rates up there with Winchester. As of this morning they were availiable at Midway USA online. I have also a one box of the Federal Premium Defense Ammunition 125G Nyclad product #724210. The Federal is a standard pressure and the Buffalo is a +P. Midway is backordered on the Federal but they do get them. 110G ammo in any 38 special revolver is too light. Stay with these above or the Winchester if you can get em.

Good luck,
roaddog

As with most others, I do not care for the 110 gr 38 Special and would not choose to carry it for SD unless I had no other options.

I carry the Gold Dot 135gr +P Short Barrel in my 642. It's in all my Speed Strips and speed loaders too. I find it no more punishing recoil wise than WWB or Rem UMC practice stuff of the same weight. It's pricey to shoot a lot of it for sure but you have to be educated in your selection. They are dead on accurate under about 25' out of the 642. Also, for what it's worth, after seeing first hand how accurate this round was, I switched from a 124gr Hydra-Shok to a 115gr Gold Dot in my 9mm (S&W 908). I'm on the Gold Dot bus.

I picked up a box of those low-recoil 110 gr. Fedrals several months ago - just because I could. Guess they just turned into range ammo.

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Don't need no stinkin' sigline

I currently carry the Fed 110gr JHP Personnel Defense rounds in my 342, 642, and Colt Cobra. When I can obtain the Fed Nyclad 125gr JHP I'll test it out in my lightweights. I use the Speer GD 135gr JHP in my steel frame 38"s.

From Combat Handguns Nov 2005 tests by Mike Boyle. Rounds fired into 10% ballistic gelatin covered with four layers of denim. S&W 640 was the test revolver.

Fed 110gr JHP PD:
Vel - 815fps
Pen - 13.75 inches
ED - .44

Fed Nyclad 125gr JHP:
Vel - 841
Pen - 17 inches
ED - .408

Speer GD 135gr JHP:
Vel - 896
Pen - 14.75 inches
ED - .528

regards

I like Mike Boyle and have attended some classes he has taught, including one on the use of snubbies. The data and testing I have witnessed differ significantly from the results you posted. Of the three loads you listed, I personally feel only the Gold Dot is acceptable. I believe the 38 snub is a marginally effective weapon and about as small in size and caliber as one should go. IMO it's at its' best in the BUG role.

Being a civilian CCW carrier I rely on others in the firearms field that test ammo performance (note I did note say stopping power) to some, but not all, of the performance criteria the FBI uses for selection of ammo.

For the non-LEO/civilian scenarios I may encounter, I look for posted results of 10% gelatin/4-layers of denim testing of ammo that meets the minimum penetration distance of 12 inches. I don't factor in one-shot stop percentages, recovered expanded diameter, foot pounds of energy, etc. Nor do I care about wet phone book or water jug testing of ammo. My choice in carry caliber starts at .38spl and goes up from there.

The rest is up to me; using a reliable firearm, good training & regular practice, proper mindset, and (I hope) the ability to recognize the deadly threat I'm confronted with and respond accordingly.

Although his ammo testing is performed mostly for LE duty use, I do read and pay attenion to the ammo postings/recommendations of DocGRK.

regards

I think it has proper applications. I load it in a 3" J-frame model 60 for my wife for home defense. She can empty a cylinder of it with excellent accuracy. She cannot do that with 158grn or +P ammo. She is not timid of it and enjoys shooting with the reduced recoil so I get her to spend more practice time. Lowered report and flash could be an advantage in a dark house. The extra barrel length raises the velocity a bit also probably helping expansion. I believe this is the proper purpose and application for this round.

Five of these center of mass trumps one +P in the shoulder and four in the door frame.

Great point, skeeterbait.

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Now go make God proud...

I agree. If that is what she likes and is at the upper end of what she can control and hit well with, then by all means use it.

My wife also uses a 3" model 60. She didn't like the recoil of 110 gr.+P dpx, or Speer SB. I tried std. pressure 125 gr. Nyclads. She hated those too. I changed the recoil impulse of her gun by going to a heavier bullet. The solution has worked out well, 148 gr. DEWC target velocity handloads, which happens to be her range load as well.

FBI Load or Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel.

I agree. The 148 gr wadcutter would be much better than the 110, hitting will hit closer to point of aim. Wont kick either.

I use to carry Hydrashoks but I found that the golden sabers to be a better round

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Don't look, reload and shoot!

How did you "find" that? What animate targets have you shot with both loads?

Not trying to be mean; I'm really curious.

T-Star

Point of aim is a nonissue with a 3" model 60. The sights are adjustable.

A few months ago I was googleing Golden Sabers and came across a test with Federal, Saber, and two other rounds in 9mm. The Sabers was the best out of the 4. If someone knows what test I'm talking about post a link, I couldn't find it.

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Don't look, reload and shoot!

These were penetration/expansion tests I take it? Just make sure that they are accurate and perform well out of YOUR gun.

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Fast is fine;accurate is final

......also make sure the bullet being tested is the same weight, caliber and from the same length barrel you are using, otherwise the results will likely be skewed. That is what ultimately pushed me to buy Perma-Gel along with the development of my .44 mag. 165 gr. JHP handload.

Thanks. But if anyone here has used both on big dogs, coyotes,, people, etc., please let us know your results.

I'm really curious. I like the looks of Hydra-Shok better, and they shoot well for me. And I can sometimes actually buy them in stores. Golden Sabre, CCI Gold Dot, etc. are harder to find.

Here is my experience:

38 Special +P 158 LSWCHP will knock a dog flat.

After shooting about 200 feral hogs caliber in hadguns DOES NOT MATTER. My father and I have killed so many feral hogs we lost count and have tried just about every bullet and caliber. CHEST SHOTS have a star next to them:*

32-20 100 gr lead good at 1200 fps*.
32-20WHV 80 gr handloads-good will kill instantly in the chest!

32ACP Silvertip from PP- dont use this for SD! Small 20 pounds hogs dont mind them much!

9mm +P+ Remington 115jhp LEO- fair*

38 SPL 158 LRN from 5" M&P is fair-not as bad as many claim*.
38 SPL 200 gr Super Police-lights out

357 Magnum 110-125 JHP is good*- usually 2-3 in chest and go down.
357 Magnum 158 SWC Rem factory*- you can see a visible shock wave come off a hog when hit with these, but they can absorb them like candy.
357 Magnum 173 gr Keith- will go to china on penetration but has no shocking ability. All Magnums from 4" 28-2.

44 SPL 246 LRN or SWC is poor. Have seen more instant headshot kills with 38 spl than 44 spl. We actually quit using the 44 spl it was so bad.
One hog took 3 to the head. SWC were actually worse than lrn in the 44 spl.

44-40 is fair*.

45 Long Colt with the old 255 LRN conical ball-very poor*
45 Long Colt Silvertip- dont even shoot a pig with it- balls up

45 ACP 230 ball- hope you brought at least a clip full*
45 ACP+P Ranger Talon 230 5" 1911- insufficient penetration. They failed miserably on my last hog hunt and had little shock effect unless you made a head hit. One head took 3 to the chest in quick order-no effect.

My humble opinion:
Hollowpoints are only marginally better than SWC.
Put LRN in the right place and it will do the job even in a 38.
Go with the absolute heaviest hollowpoint you know will expand and use it IE... 38 FBI Load or 230 JHP in 45.
357 Magnum is the best handgun round for anything.
32-20 and 30-30 are not much effective for incapacitation than the other.

Ironically, the only dead in the tracks kills on hogs I have had has been with the .243 95gr and the 32-20 100gr. My dad always used a 30-30 with 170 Silvertips and some can take 3-4 of them. It is not the caliber, it is shot placement. But I have not seen ANY benefit to a caliber bigger than 9mm/38 in a handgun and 30 in a rifle.

Personally, the 38 Special does everything a pistol round needs to and I happily carry it or a 9mm. No need for more unless it is a 357 of course.

I know some will disagree, but that is just my experience. By the way, my 28-2 is stoked with 38+P+ 147 LEO Hydrashock and my M36 has Rem 38+p 158 LSWCHP FBI.

Cool post, Dan. Thanks.

That's just dandy. Why are you shooting dogs?

I've carried the Remington version--the original, not the new watered-down loading--of the FBI load for years. I recently bought a box of Buffalo Bore standard-pressure 158 grain LSWCHP-GC, which consistently seems to duplicate the +P stuff in realistic testing. If you're concerned about pressures in your gun, that might be a good choice. It also is loaded with low-flash powders.

Presently I'm carrying it in my 640 EDC and have it loaded in my 10-5 house gun.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Cats are too fast.

Seriously, though, Watchdog: many folks here are LEOs who have to euthanize animals struck by cars, and rural packs of feral dogs can be quite dangerous to people and stock (the farmers where I grew up back in IN would have to go out together and kill off packs about once a year). Here's an entire thread about the subject:

Shooting Big Dogs With Handgun Ammo

If you'll read up-thread, you'll see where BreakerDan refers to having to euthanize a dog that got struck by a car. His posts here over the years have clearly demonstrated that he's one of the good guys.

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Now go make God proud...

You guys got me rethinkin' my carry load. My peripheral neuropathy causes weakness in my hands and wrists so I've been carrying 110 grain reduced recoil Hydra-shok's in my 442. I might just have to try some 125 grain JHP +p's.

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Keep on Chooglin'

Some people say they like the Federal 110gr load.....

I think the Winchester 110gr silver tip is a better load but,
with 110gr sjhp and Jhp bullets in my M49 snub nose, I found out that they do not shoot well unless a +P load.
At standard 38 Special speeds up to 849 fps out of the short barrel, the bullets also failed to expand in a LOT of my test!!

The 125gr Jhp bullets were just as bad at 38 Special speed and
they need 900 fps or more to work well, which is well past the pressures of the standard 38 load.

Since the bullets only expand half the time, you are just as well off, loading the NON-+P 158gr lead Swc bullets and at least, get some penetration in the trade off.

If you have to go +P............
try a box of the Speer 135gr short barrel ammo........
It works for me.