Do any of ya'll still use the Federal 147 38+P+ Hydra Shock?
I know they are old tech, but I think they are still good for a
4 incher. My M28 loves 'em.
I stick to the FBI lead hollowpoint in my snubs though.

Wasn't this the last round the FBI issued for revolvers?
If not, what was?

I do know it was a duty load for the US customs inthe cs-1

I'm carrying the "FBI Load" in all my revolvers regardless of barrel length. I do carry Remington R38S12 in my short barrel revolvers because the lead is soft enough to expand at the slightly lower velocities. Remington, Winchester or Federal FBI load ammo is fine in the 4" revolvers IMO.

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I believe I recall brother Erich saying he runs them for his pocket carried reload, due to them not getting as dinged up as the LSWCHP's when pocket carried? I seem to recall him saying he ran them also as the reload when his gun had his combat full wads in it, due to the 147's being easier to stuff in the charge ports. Now as then, I can't find any fault with the mans logic?

You need to talk to my wife.

I've got a speedloader of them in my pocket right now, and several more on the nightstand.

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I recently bought two boxes, when I found them at a "reasonable" price, by today's standards. I have a speed strip full of them in my pocket now, backing up my Colt Magnum Carry backup gun. The ballistics are fairly close to Speer Short Barrel .357-135s, with a little less recoil. In my very limited testing, they expand and partially fragment in water, though not with any kind of classic mushroom like ine sees in Gold Dots. I was having chronograph trouble the day I tried to clock them, but the one round I was confident of clocked 899 fps. from my Magnum Carry, which is a "slow gun," even with a true 2" barrel. Erich tells me that 900 is consistent with what he's seen in 1 7/8" guns, with 4" barrels getting the advertised 950 or better.

Yes, i carried them for many years in my 686, 4 inch. We qualified with them every 6 weeks on the PPC & TRC. they will do the job in a shootout. You can find them currently for sale at Ammunition To Go here on the internet at their website. I just got 1000 rounds from them last week.

Its good stuff - I've got it in my little Model 36 right now. You're right, it was the last .38 Special round issued by the FBI, replacing the 158 LSWCHP. I'm not sure why, but I would guess it performed better in the ammo tests against windshields, sheetrock, and car doors.

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Thanks for the replies. I like the round and am considering changing
my M36 no dash over to it. Seems like a M36 could handle it as the
+P+ Fed is not "that" hot compared to some of the other +P+ loads like the old T load 110.

I've got some in my stash, but do not carry them. I was going to buy another box for my stash when I saw them at a local shop for $29.99 a box of 50. I hesitated, but went back a few weeks later to the same shop to see them now re-priced at.........................hold on................wait for it.........................$64.99 a box!!!!! I went by this shop recently (this was probably 6-8 months ago they did this blatant price gouge re-pricing). Amazingly, they still have a large quantity of this sitting on the shelf. HMMM???

We all carried it .. up & through the time of the Miami Shoot-out on April 11, 1986. In that case the +P+, & the 9mm did not have the "knock-down .. stay-down" results desired. I saw one of the Bank Robbers after being hit with +P+ & 9mm get up & kill two of the Agents with me. Granted both subjects were high on adrenalin and were determined to take as many of us with them as they could before they died. Enough lead brought the guy down & several 12 gauge slugs finally ended the other guy. There were no drugs found in their systems. He had been shot twice through the heart with 9mm by one of the SWAT members. In several other shootings i was involved in ... yes the +P+ brought the subjects down... guess i was lucky. Thereafter, the Bureau started doing penetration & knock-down studies on the 10mm ammo. Couple years later we went over to the S&W 10mm models. There were some production problems with that pistol & they were all recalled. I continued to carry the 686 & +P+ up until i retired in 1994. Thereafter they went to the 40 S&W caliber Glocks. I still carry the +P+ in my 686 or my Glock 23 as a CW.

exfebee wrote: Wait - you're saying that you carried the .38 Spl +P+ 147-grain Hydra-Shok prior to April 1986?

Maybe my recollection is off, but I believe that would require a rather amazing and creative application of Einsteinian physics . . . Was your issue FBI ride a DeLorean by chance?

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I don't recall that 12 gauge slugs were used in the Miami shootout. I'll call BS on this one! Don't play PX hero and pretend to be something that you're not.

+1 on the BS.

Glad I'm not the only one . . . man, my ignore list (depopulated by the recent forum upgrade) is getting full again!

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Yo, tambien.

The 4/11/86 Miami shootout was a watershed event in Bureau history. I would urge anyone interested to check the actual documents created in its wake for the real facts:

Federal Bureau of Investigation - Freedom of Information Privacy Act

The first section (1A) lists the guns used in the shootout by make, model, and serial number (pages 66, 70), as well as the types of ammunition used. The agent's .38 ammo is described uniformly as lead +P semi-wadcutter hollowpoint. The crime scene guys recovered a speedloader full of Bureau .357 Silvertip from a g-ride, as well as some loose wadcutters probably left over from a qualification session.

Supervisory Special Agent Gordon McNeil carried a personally owned Model 19-1, serial number 6K29169. SA Mireles carried a personally owned 4 inch 686 - serial number AAH8939. There were also Model 13s, 36s, 60s, and 459s.

Some of the stuff is blacked out, but what is there is pretty eye opening.

There's also a good summary and another account of the guns in Part 02.

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Sig 220 thanks for the website on Miami. Very interesting stuff.
Also goes to show that just because you have a revolver
up against 223 assault rifles, you cant get the job done.
Sounds like the high cap 9mm carriers sprayed and prayed while
the revolver carriers made 'em count. Just sad that two agents got killed in the line of duty.

I had remembered reading that the FBI was still using LSWCHP back in 86. I thought that the FBI picked up the 147+P+ in the early 90s. Glad you guys could clarify that.

It also validated the stories that the FBI loaded 38 in their revolvers
and had 357 only for backup.

My impression is that the F.B.I. guys shot well, including the guys with autos. The initial killing shot was landed by Jerry Dove with a 9mm auto and the silvertips in his gun really did work well. Blaming them was the F.B.I.'s attempt to find a scapegoat. The agents were in the sunlight. The crooks were in the shadows, so the lighting was working against them. Ed Mireles was slow to get his 870 into the fight (the only cop with a long gun) due to a gunshot wound to his left arm. The BGs had long guns and sure as heck knew how to use them, since Mattix was a former Marine and Platt was a former Army Ranger. No doubt the good guys made mistakes, but we've had years to pick apart split second decisions they had to make on the fly.

Can I take a moment to thank all of the "usual suspects"?
You folks are great! You don't get flustered or angry, just more determined to get down to facts. Even when taunted, you stayed focused! An awful lot of the reasons people come here to learn, has been shown in this thread. Your readers were the real winners here! And a T/Y for that link 220!

Erich,
Why do you find the Federal +P+ to be a better choice then the Speer GD short barrels and would you carry them in an Airweight?

I trust that the heavier made-for-the-FBI round is going to meet their penetration standards, and I've worked on so many cases in which adequacy of penetration has been an issue.

I am certain that S&W would not approve these +P+ rounds for use in their Airweight .38 Specials. As to what I do . . . well, I don't think I'll talk about that.

Everyone should be aware that I generally only use the rounds in question as back-up speedloader fodder for my .38s.

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Is this the same +P+ load that the California Highway Patrol used in their model 68's?

Erich, if penetration was an issue (I take it that is is the "lack of, rather than "over") why not simply go to a heavier bullet?

I don't know history of the shoot outs or anything, but why did they get away from the old LSWHP 158's? (Isn't that THE FBI load?) I believe that this ammunition does not go through car bodies or windshields, if I am correct? Wasn't that the reason why they bought .357's as early as 1935-36?

Changes in politics and policies I suppose.
I guess fellers didn't like that heavy chunk of iron on their hip.

I can only imagine that if of those fellers would have had a Model 27 or a Registered Magnum with appropriate ammunition...

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I came into the Bureau five years after the Miami shooting, and have met some of the guys involved. The idea that the Bureau scapegoated the whole thing on Jerry Dove's well placed but under-penetrating 9mm Silvertip is largely a creation of the gun press, apparently in reaction to the ammo tests that led to the adoption of the 1076 and different carry loads for the other calibers.

I can tell you that the entire shooting was mercilessly critiqued within the Bureau, and changes were made in a lot of areas, including tactics and equipment.

There were fourteen agents in the rolling stakeout that day, looking for the black Monte Carlo taken from a murdered owner a few days before. It was bad luck that the agents involved in the takedown had only two long guns readily available - both shotguns. McNeil elected not to use his, and has said since that he deeply regrets the decision. Mireles used his, but it was largely ineffective anyway. Other agents in the stakeout, who arrived after the shooting, had M-16s and MP-5s.

Now, every agent who wants one can have a shotgun, M4, or MP-5/10mm, and it can be mounted in a secure rack inside the vehicle rather than locked in the trunk. Body armor is required, and its use is stringently enforced (though it wouldn't have made a difference on 4/11/86 given the weapons used and the location of the injuries on the agents).

The Bureau took a look at the types of shootings agents are typically involved in, and designed a series of tests to make sure issued ammo met a certain standard. It is definitely biased toward deeper penetration, and that's fine with me. We don't issue ammo to other agencies or departments - they can use what they want.

As flop-shank said, its easy to take years to critique decisions made in seconds. Those agents knew Platt and Mattix were both hard core killers, based on their previous robberies. They identified them, made the decision to stop them, and killed both of them, though at a terrible price.

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Good thread. I use the Fiocchi 147 gr HP's in my 337. I'm afraid to use the +P+'s in it though. (Although if I chronographed each load the Fiocchi's would probably be close to the same as the Hydrashocks-they kick like a bear!!! maybe some things are best left unknown )
Thanks for the linky to the shootout-interesting reading.

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Andy, I generally carry heavier bullets. I use the rounds in question in my speedloaders because their jackets protect them from dings to a greater extent than the lead bullets I usually carry.

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Ah. Makes perfect sense.
I had a little leather "speedloader sheath" made for a J-frame speedloader for my pocket, that way the lead doesn't come off on my clothing by carrying it loose in my pocket to deal with this same problem.

My pockets were turning grey- not good.

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I had a speed strip pouch made up for the same exact reason.

I've seen that speed strip pouch in one of your postings were can I get one of those I've been looking all over?

Made up by a friend who posts here (on my design! ) . . . here you go!

Side Guard Holsters - Rough Pouch

Erich
Thank you very much I will order in the morning

Pete

For informational purposes only when S&W introduced the M640 38Spl serial numbers with the prefix of (CEN) were marked per the following: (TESTED FOR+P+). Later production the (Tested FOR+P+) was deleted. The marking appears in the frame cylinder window. I have one so marked. The rational for subsequent models with the marking deleted was there was no industry standard for (+P+) at that time.

You're most welcome, Pete - I carry that "Rough Out" pouch more than any other single piece of gear I own (save for my wallet, wedding ring, crucifix, and Fenix light, I suppose). It has never had problems and has never failed to protect bullets in the loaded rounds. Use yours in good health, and give my regards to Eric Srigsley at SideOut.

And I thank Dennis also once again!

Actually, the very last of last FBI .38 Special ammo was on contract with Winchester, a 147 grain JHP +P+, Q4296. That was purchased during the last few years that revolvers were authorized as personal weapon, before those guns were completely removed. It is no longer in the catalog, but here is a link to the spec sheet:
Law Enforcement - Online Catalog - Spec Sheets

And some pics

Attached Images

	pix971947234.jpg (36.3 KB, 485 views)
	pix971947281.jpg (36.4 KB, 593 views)

Thanks very much for posting those 15-4ever!

Yes, indeed! Any chance for some "real world" chrono data?

I have some Erich (Federal version), and will be including it in the Old versus New .38 Special comparison. This ammo was also issued by U.S. Treasury. An agency made arrangements for agents to purchase personal 640 no dash models for backup and undercover use. The revolvers were not specially marked, but the boxes were, and a special product code was used for these guns. Qualification was required using the subject load. Later, the agency purchased the .357 versions of the 640 for issue to the agents as BUG, but the issue ammo and qualification was still with the +P+ .38 Special.

Now, is that "Federal version" to which you refer the same as the Hydra-shok version that I have in my pocketses? I was wondering about whether the Winchesters were loaded to substantially the same velocities as the Federals, that's all.

I just posted this on another forum that has a thread on Federal 147gr. +P+:

Update, FYI: After doing a long-overdue trigger job on my 4" 10-8, I decided to run a few rounds of this ammo over the chrono Saturday.
Temp: Approx. 70 deg. F
RH: Approx. 90%
For three rounds: Mean vel.: 1063.9 fps.
H: 1090.7
L: 1035.7
ES: 55.0
KE: 370 ft.lbs.

This particular gun has a tight barrel/cylinder gap, and runs fast. It got an average of 943 fps. with FBI loads from the same box that got 771 from the Magnum Carry.

Thanks for the real world info. I had been meaning to chrono these from
my 4" Model 28. I feel confident carrying these rounds-they are at least as good as most 9mm rounds and probably better.

I stocked up on the Federal a few years ago when CTD was selling it for $20 a box. Extremely accurate ammo in my guns.

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Here's the ones I have, which will be included in the Old versus New test...

What is this test of which you speak? Sounds interesting.

I've acquired a bunch of old and new factory .38 Special ammo and plan on chronographing it to compare velocities. Have been at it for a couple years, hoping to get as much test ammo as possible, but the ammo shortage has caused some problems. Here's a pick of the old stuff so far, and I have an equal amount of newer stuff. I did the same thing with 38 Super a couple months ago and posted the results here and on the Sig forum, but there was much less of that ammo available to test, especially the the older stuff.

Great idea! Looking forward to seeing the results!

Hopefully, it has been properly stored. Otherwise, the results wont be very accurate. I look forward to seeing what you find out.

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Recent Chrono Data .38 Spl:

Winchester 147 JHP +P+
Ruger 4" Security Six 975 fps SD 6
Ruger 2.75" Speed Six 927 fps SD 14

Federal 147 JHP-HS +P+
Ruger 4" Security Six 1025 fps SD 13
Ruger 2.75" Speed Six 975 fps SD 25

Remington 158 LHP +P
Ruger 4" Security Six 983 fps SD 11
Ruger 2.75" Speed Six 941 fps SD 22

Federal 125 LHP-Nyclad
S&W 2" Model 60 772 fps SD 28

Federal 158 SWC
S&W 2" Model 60 747 fps SD 18

FYI.

Nice to see - thanks!

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