Looking for a good coup de grace .38 / .357 round for cows...

A buddy of mine is a large animal vet out west and is looking to keep a truck gun around, primarily for euthanizing cattle, but also for just-in-case since he's often out in the middle of nowhere. Told him to pick up a nice used S&W 66 or 686 .357.

He says most folks out there use a .22, often requiring multiple shots to get the job done. Said he could make do with the rimfire for the cows since he knows what he's doing, but the .22 is less effective for any other duties that might be needed.

So...looking for a .38 / .357 load that will get the job done quickly, while minimizing over-penetration and external mess.

I was thinking Speer GD's 135 gr Short-Barrel would be a good general load. Glaser Safety Slugs were another thought...

I'd vote for the old standy, 148 grain wadcutters. They're so mild it never creates a noise or over penetration problem. But if you were to compare them to a 22 lr, high vel or standard, I think you'd find at least equal or better penetration. They generate a lot of tissue damage because of the flat shape of the bullet. Cost is minimal and they're usually available.

For self protection, they're not all that bad. Many of us suggest them to people who are recoil sensitive. They won't penetrate a car door, but then many of your high performance loads won't, either. I'd hate to get shot by one of them. They open up a .357 diameter hole that won't close easily.

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Dick Burg

I carry 158gr Speer Golddot .357s and think they are the bees knees.

Never used less than a rifle for cattle, but I would be confident to use them for anything but moose, buffalo and bear and then only because if I had to shoot a moose, buffalo or bear they don't stand still for a head shot!

dont forget the .327 round...

Here is an interesting article by Skeeter Skelton talking about how Elmer Keith tested out 44 magnum loads on cattle:

Can You Handle The .44 Magnum?

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Aaron Terry

What about a Dowel?????
Just thinking.............it would have to be at least .357 in diameter although .22 diameter would do if you placed it correctly.

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Forum consigliere

The standard 158gr. MC 38spl will do everything you need to drop a bull when fired into the brain.
For a do-everything load I would go with a 357 158gr hard cast SWC.
Stay away from any light weight high speed rounds for cattle killing.
And don't even think about hitting a bull in the head with a glaser safety slug!

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Jeb

As Dick said,
the standard old 148 gr wadcutter. The vet knows where- brain pan or brain stem.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Them two's hard to beat for most any application in a .38/.357. aint they?

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Georgia On My Mind

I would NOT advise the "standard 148 wadcutter". That target load is good for many things but penetrating skulls isn't one of them. The bullet itself would be okay pepped up a bit. I have noticed a tendency for .38s below about 800fps to deflect around the skull rather tha penetrate from many angles. (Of course almost anything works fired into the atlas joint from above and behind but animals don't alway cooperate.) My own preference for general duty is a broad meplat lead bullet(WC,RNF, or SWC) 158-175 grains moving out at 850fps+. If he is starting from scratch buy a .357 and use either good 38spl +P loads or midlevel .357 magnums-they work.

The 180 grain hard cast .357 by Buffalo Bore will do it.

I would suggest starting with something "middle of the road" and see how it works. The Buffalo Bore 150 gr. hardcast wadcutter may overpenetrate (there is a gel test of that load at www.brassfetcher.com ), but I can't see it not working. It it does, go to a lighter loaded wadcutter as suggested. If more twack is needed (I doubt it, but admittedly know little about killing cattle), then try a hardcast wadcutter in .357. I would suggest figuring out what works, then having someone handload them for you, or better yet, learn to handload them if you don't handload already. The .38/.357 is about the easiest cartridge to reload and a set of .38 spl. dies will also work for .357s.

Jim Cirillo tested wadcutters against rounded ogive bullets and shared his results in his book Guns, Bullets and Gunfights. Cirillo claimed that when shooting sheet metal from an angle wadcutters "bit" and penetrated when more rounded bullets would glance off. He felt that the same thing would apply to skulls. I would think that a very hardcast bullet would work best, as well as shoot cleaner. Some people here have had good luck with www.tennesseevalleybullets.com . They will cast them hard if you ask them too.

Not the test dowel again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For clarification...he works large dairies where charging bulls will not really be an issue...

I have put down three cows on the ranch in the last couple years.
Two large cows done with the 45 Colt Win SuperX 255gr Lead Round Nose in a Colt SAA. Both were killed instantly with a brain shot.

I also used a Colt SAA in 32-20 with a 100gr Remington Lead bullet. That was also instantly effective. I have also seen it done with 44-40 200gr JSP and that works well too as does the 38 Special 200gr Super Police Load.

I would use any non-hollowpoint round in 38 or 357 such as the 158 jacketed soft point or semi-wadcutter. Hollowpoints should be avoided because they sometimes just don't work on skulls- I know this from experience shooting hogs, unless it is the full weight lead semi wad hollowpoint in the 38+P called the FBI load. 38 Lead Round Nose would work fine since my 32-20 did great. Shoot slightly above the eyes and between the ears- not behind the ear and it's lights out every time. I have seen some vets who didn't know that.

My dad used to carry a 1946 S&W M&P for his truck gun. It has killed a few bovine as well as numerous feral hogs and pests. It was usually loaded with cheap Mexican made 38 LRN that he used to buy for $6 a box, until he found a box of 200gr Remington 38s. It is a very effective gun even with LRN. He now carries a short 30-30 with Silvertips and keeps the 38 at home.

Also, you couldn't beat a short 30-30 brush gun for what the vet needs.
By the way, IMHO Glaser safety slugs are worthless for just about anything. They will simply
not penetrate deep enough for general purpose. A SWC or SWCHP would be the best all around bullet.

I think that much depends upon the mental state of the bovine.

The only load I have personally used (twice) was a high velocity .22 LR solid.

These were trussed yearling beef creatures and at the shot they went to their knees, had their throats slit and hoisted in the chain falls.

PLUS 1

I have had to kill some large animals and reliably going through the skull of such an animal will not be likely enough with a 148 gr wadcutter 38.Forget expanding bullets in general as they are not reliable against a thick skull.Low velocity is not the ideal either as bullets have a tendency to glance against the slope of a skull when driven at modest velocity.

A number of years ago,a friend wanted me to load some ammo for him.I loaded some mild target loads for his 38 special at his request.The bullets were 158 gr cast SWCs.Velocity was probably around 850 FPS or so.I strongly told him that these were NOT to be used for anything but paper punching and NOTHING else.As it turned out,he wound up using it to kill some hogs for slaughter and complained to me that my ammo wasn't very good because he had to shoot them "a bunch of times"as he put it.They would not penetrate the skull.Needless to say,he never got anymore ammo from me.

Use a hard bullet with ENOUGH steam.

Of the last 3 grown cows I had to dispatch, 2 were with a 45acp 230 gr lrn, one with a 357 125gr JHP.

The 45 took care of business 1 shot each. The 357 took 3 shots. Placement on all shots was textbook right from the vet manual.

If I can, I will only use the 45 from now on.

I worked part-time for a man in KY whose business involved the removal
of dead cattle and race horses from central KY farms. I had to kill cattle
who had prolapsed, or had a broken leg at times. A Lyman #454424 or
#454190 ahead of 8.5 grs. Unique, from a .45 Colt worked every time. I
would NOT recommend a .38 Special for that kind of work.

I don't understand why you cruel guys want to kill cows! Eat your vegetables!


Now the .41 Mag - that there's a great turnip round!

I would recommend the 158 gr JSP. I have never shot a cow with one but alot of hogs have met thier demise from these bullets.


snakeman

If I was in the market for a truck gun that had enough oomf to penetrate large animal skulls I'd buy a CZ52.

+++++++++++++100 what Jeb says. You need some penetration to put down a cow. The skull is hard and thick. Years ago, a neighbor undertook to kill a cow for my dad with a head shot from a .38 S&W. The cow was in a chute when he shot. Botched the job and the cow left the chute. Took an -06 to put her down then.

Taking a lesson from the masters of skull shots, I think there is a reason they use monolithic solids for elephants. Heavy, solid, and relatively slow is the way to go.

Roger that. When growing up in the Midwest we had a friend who ran a slaughterhouse who had been in the business for 40+ years. I was fascinated with the process and hung out at his shop from time to time to learn. When a customer brought an animal in he asked, "do you want the brains?" A lot of folks saw them as a delicacy. If the answer was yes, they wanted the brains, he killed the animal with a .22 rifle from about 2 feet. He also had a butcher knife in his hand when he shot and immediately stepped in to cut the jugular when the animal dropped to its knees, to be sure. If the answer was no to the brains question, he used an old Colt in 45LC. He told me about times when the .22 didn't do the job and had been injured a few times by steers that had to be shot multiple times. Something about his many years killing cattle told him the big fat old .45 slug was best. Nowadays the big processors use a pneumatic bolt gun in large caliber.

I have no experience in dispatching cattle, but I have had to disptach dogs. I won't use anything less than a .45ACP or .45 Colt; they are clean one-shot kills. Additionally, for a "truck gun," they work pretty good on two legged vermin.

An excellent suggestion.......but if it is for youthinasia wouldn't the Type 51 Tokarev copy be more appropriate? ;^)

I've put down a lot of horses and cattle over the years. My preferance is something hard cast or full metal jacketed with a diameter over .4. Probably the fastest was a mare I put down last fall with a .45 Colt and the RCBS 270SAA. Had too much penetration, going through the skull, neck, withers, exiting behind the shoulder and reentering the hind quarter (her neck was at an angle on the shot). That being said my brother is a vet and uses a .22 most of the time, though he admits .44s and .45s are much more effective.

FWIW, we used to use a 22-250, and never needed more than one round.

Huh. I first thought that this thread was about provisions for the elderly in congress' new health care bill... Back in my previous life, I killed a few cattle. I've used a .38 with a 140gr. Speer JHP over a max. load of 2400, a .357 with 158gr. cast, and a 9mm with 115gr. JHP. From the right angle, all will easily penetrate to the brain. The butcher we took cattle to for our own beef always used a .22 rifle. One interesting phenomenon I noticed over the years is that it is a whole lot easier to kill a healthy or relatively healthy bovine than one that is badly injured or very ill. No "shock" value for the sick ones, I guess.

Reminds me of a story.....
Years ago, before I left the captive world and gone off to work in Africa, I was in charge of all the carnivores (20 cheetah, 9 lions, 5 tigers, 3 wolves, and 5 brown bear <okay, so they're omnivores>) at a beautiful safari park, and we got most of our meat from the local farmers and ranchers.
They'd call us when a horse or cow had an ailment too serious to fix, and I, like the grim reaper would show up to do the dirty deed.
I received just such a call one day from a guy who said that one of his momma cows had a pinched nerve from calving, and although he'd tried valiantly to help her by raising her with a tractor every day to massage her rear legs, and keeping her watered and fed where she was lying.....it had been two weeks since she'd been able to stand on her own power.
He had reluctantly given upon her, and rather than kill her and bury her on the farm, he'd rather she go to a good cause, such as feeding our animals.
It was about an hour and a half drive for me to get to his farm, and as I walked up to Bessie with my rifle on my shoulder, I gave her a kick in the rump and said "well old lady, here's your last chance", and I'll be damned if she didn't jump to her feet and calmly saunter off. The farmer was stunned, and effusive in his apology for bringing me all the way out for nothing, but I told him heck, I was thrilled that he got his cow back, and that I didn't have to shoot her.
I guess the old lady was just happy to have a vacation from the herd, content to just laze around getting her daily massage and "breakfast in bed", and didn't know how close she'd come to having her vacation extended permanently.

Go with a heavy bullet 140g+. And If I were in your shoes I would forget the handgun and opt for one of the many nifty .357 cal lever action carbines on the market these days. Much more useable in wide open spaces IMHO.

+1XXXXXXXXX. 158 to 170 grain hard or soft in a .357. The bovine skull is an amazing creation.

My vet uses an old ruger single action with factory 250-255 gr. .45 Colt loads. He says it is very humane - kills instantly and never fails.
Mike

A-MEN durco.nothing beats a 45LC IN THE brainpan.a good bullet would be from BUFFALO-BORE..............