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  #101  
Old 09-27-2009, 06:37 PM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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ajpelz, I'm sure FMJ will work better against heavy bone, except I think it's probably more likely to deflect (that's a SWAG) and overpenetrate.

One thing that popped into my mind this morning after I responded to your post, was that if you haven't already proven 100% reliability in your gun with Hydra-Shok, you might want to look for online tests to see if there are .380 loads that expand more reliably when heavy cloth is involved. My thinking is that bullets that mushroom better through heavy clothing are more likely to expand well on the street whether heavy cloth is involved or not. If you have already determined Hydra-Shoks to be 100% reliable (by firing at least 100 rounds without a hiccup) I wouldn't waste my time worrying about it were I you.

I haven't tested Hydra-Shoks, but have found the Speer Gold Dot to be the best of any .380 loads I've tested (see the results in the Perma-Gel Test Results thread). I use a Gold Dot handload clone in my P3AT. My hunch is that the Hydra-Shok is slightly more accurate in more guns.

I certainly understand carrying a .380 as a primary. Circumstances sometimes force me to do the same thing.
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  #102  
Old 09-27-2009, 06:56 PM
ajpelz ajpelz is offline
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I have run well over 100 Federal HS through my LCP without a hiccup, (and good thing because I did have to use the gun on a bobcat in the yard with my mouser cat) which was relieving since I have heard that 3ATPs have had trouble with the bullet. Come to think of it, my LCP has never had a hiccup of any kind with about 500 rounds through her. I would never carry a round that I have not sufficiently tested.

I agree with your SWAG that an FMJ would deflect and keep going more due to higher velocity at point of impact rather than stop as an JHP might when encountering a harder surface in body. The question that I have is which is better??? I think I might rather have the bullet stop than deflect (possibly hitting an innocent bystander worst case scenario) IMHO. That is why we have mags that hold multiple bullets right?? Well I guess I am in the market for a lightweight primary carry gun in 9mm (more likely) or 45 ACP. Any suggestions? Other than my 4506 which weighs a ton, especially when compared to Elsie Pea.

P.S. I am not setup to reload 380 at this time, and I have not seen Speer GoldDots in 380 since owning my Elise.... about a year now. If I ever come across any, I will snatch up as many as possible.

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  #103  
Old 09-27-2009, 08:55 PM
Marshal tom Marshal tom is offline
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Default Having all that in mind, What do you carry most?

Erick,

What is your choice as a main carry? I looks like you have several that you switch off.

Tom
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  #104  
Old 09-27-2009, 08:56 PM
Marshal tom Marshal tom is offline
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Default Having all that in mind, What do you carry most?

Erich,

What is your choice as a main carry? I looks like you have several that you switch off.

Tom
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  #105  
Old 09-27-2009, 09:13 PM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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ajpelz, my thinking is that the rounded nose, plus less compressable nature of a FMJ would be what would redirect it if it didn't hit a bone from a fairly straight angle. Jim Cirillo talks about that phenominon extensively in his book, Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights. The sharp opening in the nose of a hollowpoint would, I would think help it "bite" into a bone and track straighter if it's more compressible nature didn't allow the bone to stop it. IIRC, Erich has mentioned this before (earlier in this thread, I think). If not, perhaps he'll chime in with his thoughts. We sit on different sides of the .380 FMJ vs. JHP divide, but I respect and appreciate his insights. The more I study ammunition, the more I realize that people well versed on the subject oftentimes disagree on different nuances of it, so you'll have to decide for yourself where you stand on the FMJ/JHP question in this borderline cartridge.

FWIW, people underestimate the ability of bone to defeat bullets. One of my friends had an AK bullet go through his steel pot from the side, bounce off the upper left side of his skull, then the inside top of his helmet, deflect again off the right side of his skull and stop halfway out the other side of his helmet. He got cold cocked, but he lived and recovered fully.

As far as the question of compact 9mms and .45s goes, I'll let the autoloader guys answer your questions on that one. I'm a revolver guy and many others here know the square guns better than I do. I'd certainly think a new thread would be the best forum for that question. As an ammo guy, I'm not hot on the .45 ACP in general, and definitely cold towards it in less than full length barrels. JOMO.

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  #106  
Old 09-27-2009, 10:46 PM
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Marshal Tom, it really depends on what I'm doing and how I'm dressed. I like DA autos and revolvers. Depending, I might have a Colt DS with handloads, a CZ RAMI with 124-gr +P Gold Dot short barrel rounds, a Ruger P90 with Hornady 200-gr +P TAP ammo, or some sort of a .357 with Silvertips or handloads depending on where I'm going.

flop-shank, what you say about bone makes sense - however, I recall the Hydra-shok bounced off the guy's skull. Nothing's perfect, I suppose.
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  #107  
Old 09-28-2009, 04:23 PM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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Erich, recently I read, or heard (don't remember which) that the key word in "cranial vault" is vault.
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  #108  
Old 09-29-2009, 02:58 PM
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In the late 80's, I owned a HK P7M8-K3 (.380 with multicaliber conversion) that would routinely chronograph the old Federal HS (95 grain, IIRC) load at 1080-1100 fps. It was the "fastest" .380 firearm I've ever owned. Of course it was almost as large as a regular P7, but having the .32 ACP and .22 LR conversions were a lot of fun. Oddly, the .32 was the most accurate of the bunch.

After seeing the dismal velocity from a Seecamp, I don't carry a .380 anymore.
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  #109  
Old 11-11-2009, 10:45 AM
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Back from the dead with some chrono data from an LCP:



Albuquerque City Range, 5950 feet above sea level, 78 F:

Winchester white box 95-gr flat-point ball
Mean 900.2 fps/extreme spread 31.47 fps/standard deviation 11.87 feet per second

Federal 95-gr ball
M 851.0/ES 28.05/SD 9.94

Remington 95-gr ball
M 890.6/ES 39.06/SD 15.19

Fiocchi 95-gr ball
M 808.7/ES 63.96/SD 26.15

58 F:

Speer Blazer Brass 95-gr FMJ
M 779.8/ES 41.45/SD 15.52

PMC 90-gr FMJ
M 846.1/ES 36.25/SD 14.79

Double Tap 95-gr FMJ
M 985.7/ES 64.82/SD 24.12

I've got a couple more brands to chrono still.

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  #110  
Old 11-11-2009, 05:27 PM
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Round nose slugs not only deflect, they occasionally push blood vessels out of the way. Quite awhile back, a gent in my apartment complex got shot in the mouth with .45 hardball during a gun cleaning party. The round entered the mouth (lost at least one tooth), grooved the tongue and exited through the neck without serious damage. Major blood vessels were gently pushed to the side.

I used to have a newspaper clipping on an incident where a cop shot a knife wielding teen in the forearm to disarm him. Slug deflected off the forearm bones, the upper arm bone, hung a hard left and traversed the chest cavity from left to right, cutting the blood vessels over the heart in the process, and lodged in the right bicep.
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  #111  
Old 11-12-2009, 12:57 AM
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So from what I've been reading the Buffalo Bore 100 grain hard cast lead flat nose +P could be a pretty effective and potentially devastating round. The problem is finding a weapon that is sturdy enough to reliably and safely shoot it.

I got a few boxes of this ammo and recently got a Sig P230 (1992, blue). I think this gun is a bit more robust than the LCP and other micro/plastic mouse guns.

Do you all think the Sig is beefy enough to handle these monster rounds?
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  #112  
Old 11-12-2009, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
Back from the dead with some chrono data from an LCP:



Albuquerque City Range, 5950 feet above sea level, 78 F:

Winchester white box 95-gr flat-point ball
Mean 900.2 fps/extreme spread 31.47 fps/standard deviation 11.87 feet per second

Federal 95-gr ball
M 851.0/ES 28.05/SD 9.94

Remington 95-gr ball
M 890.6/ES 39.06/SD 15.19

Fiocchi 95-gr ball
M 808.7/ES 63.96/SD 26.15

58 F:

Speer Blazer Brass 95-gr FMJ
M 779.8/ES 41.45/SD 15.52

PMC 90-gr FMJ
M 846.1/ES 36.25/SD 14.79

Double Tap 95-gr FMJ
M 985.7/ES 64.82/SD 24.12

I've got a couple more brands to chrono still.

Good data, Thanks for posting it.

I am quite surprised at the Fiocchi velocity. My experience with their brand in the past is that they load hot, consistent ammo. Seems to not be the case with this caliber. Rather slow and a large ES.

Was there one brand that your gun seemed to prefer over the others?
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  #113  
Old 11-13-2009, 08:55 PM
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FWIW, Lot to lot variations seem to be the norm. I have a batch olf Rem Ball that averages about 980fps from my P3aT......My Winchester White Box is only doing about 815.......but since my Keltec feed the WWB okay I have switched to it for carry simply because I like the meplat on their bullet.
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  #114  
Old 01-13-2010, 10:27 PM
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Diggin up info on 380 I want to take a minute and say thanks all.
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  #115  
Old 01-15-2010, 11:52 AM
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i load a 115gr FMJ bullet over 3.6gr of W231. i like the heavier bullets and so does my all steel, old school, single action AMT 380.
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  #116  
Old 01-15-2010, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MWAG View Post
i load a 115gr FMJ bullet over 3.6gr of W231. i like the heavier bullets and so does my all steel, old school, single action AMT 380.
What kind of numbers do you get out of that load? I haven't started loading yet but I've thought about one like this and possibly a Gold Dot version.
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  #117  
Old 04-15-2010, 02:26 PM
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Default Hey Erich!

Last fall I posted #55 and #84 on this thread about my 120 grain truncated cone load for the 380. Unfortunately the penetration test proved that it was way too much of a good thing. Shortly there after I had gall bladder surgery, hunting seasons started, etc., so I didn't get to follow up in a timely manner.

But I came across a different gun that is almost exactly the same dimensions a Taurus 709 Slim in 9mm. This really intrigued me and I eventually researched and handled one and then purchased it. The picture seems a little weird as the lines I drew to capture the dimensions really do contain the guns they don't "color outside the lines" as they appear. In other words they really do fit in the dimensions noted. I have thoroughly tested this gun and it is now my replacement for the 380.



The Speer Gold Dot load of 124 grain clocks at 1047 fps and performs well in my recent penetration test. Fully penetrates 3 gallon water jugs, makes a puncture in #4 but is contained in #3. This bullet beautifully mushroomed to .564.

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  #118  
Old 04-16-2010, 11:20 AM
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Hi KSCowboy,

I find dimensional photos like the one that you posted to be really persuasive - the width dimensions would be helpful, FWIW.

Similar comparison pic between a DS with Badger stocks and a CS:


I agree that the compact 9s are a treat - the only .380 I use is the LCP, which is smaller and lighter than any 9x19 . . . and which I only use for really deep concealment. Most of the time, as you note, there are modern 9x19 pistols that carry just as well as old-time .380s and hit a lot harder. (And are cheaper to practice with! )

I run that same Speer 124-gr +P short barrel Gold Dot load in my 3" RAMI (modified the stocks to make it thinner), from which it does 1180 fps - I've got a couple more boxes that should get delivered today, in fact, from Top Gun.














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  #119  
Old 04-16-2010, 11:43 AM
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Erich,

I got the idea of the dimension box pictures from some you posted one time. You're right it is a great way to illustrate the comparison. I tried to do a photo comparing the thickness of the two but couldn't get them posed well. As the Taurus is a single stack the thickness is almost identical.

I'm using the non +P load that's why the slower velocity. It is what I got a good volume deal on and "issued" to both of my daughters. One has a Walther PPS that is of very similar dimensions (I should get it out and do a comparison with the Taurus). She has very small hands with very short fingers and she really loves the fit of the Colt 380 but I really wanted her to have something with a little more power. I'm anxious to have her try the Taurus as I believe the grip is a little smaller than the PPS. The other daughter has very long fingers and fell in love with my S&W M&P 9c so she got it. Actually she's my step daughter so different gene pool. I had to go get me another M&P 9c as I really like it also.

Here's another post I started to continue the technical side of the thread about SD with cast lead bullets I think you were in on. Nothing to do with the pros and cons just my reloading experiments with cast wad cutters and swaged lead HPs in 44 Special:
44 Special Handload Defense Loads
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  #120  
Old 04-16-2010, 04:20 PM
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I was looking at your .44 post earlier today and got pulled away - thanks for reminding me to go back to it.

I first tried that GD load in a friend's PPS - that is an accurate little flat gun! I doubt anyone on the receiving end would sneer at the standard pressure loading . . . I'm all about the good deal. I use standard pressure stuff in my Star BM, by the way.
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  #121  
Old 05-14-2010, 07:17 PM
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Absolutely outstanding thread. I suggest it be Sticky'd.

Excellent information as well as an excellent example of how to conduct civil discourse.
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  #122  
Old 05-14-2010, 10:20 PM
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Default A question for Erich, please

Based on your experience and expertise, what role do you see for the "Mag-Safe" type ammo in .380 ACP ? This would be from a short barrel back up gun type pistol.

Thank you.
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  #123  
Old 05-15-2010, 06:45 AM
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Hi Fred,

I've no experience in working on shootings with MagSafe rounds. I would be concerned about adequacy of penetration with MagSafe, Glaser, or other pre-fragmented rounds. These are not something I'd ever choose to use to protect myself.

Back in the late '80s, though, I was totally sold on the concept of "energy-transfer" being essential to "stopping power." (I'm still a bit resentful of that.) In every shooting case that I've worked on and learned enough about to talk about, the actual mechanism for effecting a cessation of aggression seemed to be a lot more mundane: a hole through something vital that caused either the shutdown of the circulatory system (leading to oxygen deprivation) or else the shutdown of the central nervous system.

The .380 is certainly capable of making such a hole, but since the bullets it launches are so light and slow (relatively speaking), my main concern with these little guns is ensuring that the bullets can be placed precisely (targeting the specific vitals - I recommend studying human anatomy to be sure exactly where an attacker's heart/aorta is situated and to be aware of how the skull protects the brain: Gray, Henry. 1918. Anatomy of the Human Body ) and that those bullets don't stop for some reason before they make the required hole in the targeted vital area.

Hope you have a great weekend - everyone stay safe!
cheers, erich
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TennTony View Post
Absolutely outstanding thread. I suggest it be Sticky'd.
I second the motion.

This thread showcases the different philosophies regarding the use of FMJ vs. JHP ammo in .380 ACP, as well as the pitfalls of +P loads, in such a way that allows people to make a more informed decision. The cordial nature of this thread, as well as Erich's insights based on his unique opportunity to study the .380 due to his profession, also makes it a most enjoyable read. The links to online gel tests are invaluable IMO. Questions regarding the .380 are so common that a .380 sticky, as well as .38 spl. makes a lot of sense.

I also would like to add that, thanks to a generous ammo donation from BigRich315, I've fairly recently added the test results for four more .380 JHP loads to the Perma-Gel Test Results thread.
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  #125  
Old 05-15-2010, 10:09 AM
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Default Thanks, Erich for the information

I know that the .380 is weak, and I prefer my J-frame S&W's. But we cannot forget that the .380 auto generally presents a smaller pocket package than a J-frame. Bullet placement is always important. I like the .45 ACP in both my S&W 325 and in my 1911 pistols. Of course, these weapons are harder to hide in a hot weather environment.

Thanks for your insight on the Mag-Safe.
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Old 05-16-2010, 01:25 PM
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Thumbs up Great Thread

Many thanks to all who contributed their findings to this discussion. Special thanks to Erich for sharing his experiences on a subject that many of us have pondered. My findings are limited to the only 380 that I own, an older Walther PPK-S. I only use it when discreet(no print) carry is required. I bring it on range visits and practice with my reloads of hard cast(lynotype) 92gr Lyman bullets. I end the sessin with 2 mags of WWB flat point 95gr FMJ. It helps to clean out the lead from the barrel. I was very pleased when Winchester changed their USA load to flat point from round nose since the larger meplat cuts a wider channel and takes less detours within the torso. It has now become my only factory load for both practice and carry. And, the price is reasonable. For me, experimentation is not an option, but I found this thread to be very interesting. It should be worthy of a sticky! Again, thanks to all
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  #127  
Old 05-20-2010, 05:01 PM
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In sales, we have a trilogy saying: FAB. It stands for FEATURE, ADVANTAGE, BENEFIT.

This thread has extolled the features of different ammo, the advantages of having or not having penetration, etc. What I have NOT read are the Benefits.

Specifically, why are we carrying weapons at all? The short answer is to STOP A THREAT! We are not there to KILL someone. that may occur in the act of stopping a threat, but it should not be the object of the shooting. If proven by an attorney that it is, you will be tried for murder, quite possibly.

Therefore, my question about the BENEFITS is this:

Will a .380 in ANY ammo configuration stop an assailant when they are shot Center Mass? I.E., will the gun do what it is intended to do...STOP A THREAT?

Your answer may dictate whether or not I throw the new Taurus PT 738 in the trash can. No pressure on you though! LOL!!
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  #128  
Old 05-20-2010, 05:13 PM
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Howdy GOV5,

You have an excellent point. And if you are familiar with my experimentation with the 380 acp you will know that I worked to make the 380 a better stopper. Some of that info is documented in this thread.

I hot rodded my Colt Gov't Model 380 to the point of getting too much penetration with a 120 grain flat nosed bullet. Trying to make a 380 into a 9mm is not the right approach. Along the way I found the Taurus 709 Slim which is virtually the same size as my Colt. This gives me a more powerful cartridge in the same sized package.

I feel that the Taurus is a small enough gun when I want ultra deep concealment with better stopping power.

The Taurus is rarely my primary carry gun as I tend to carry a M&P 9c in the Kansas heat under a Hawaiian shirt and a 1911 45 acp the rest of the year.

I have never been comfortable with the stopping power of the 380 and that is why I insist my wife and daughters carry at least 38 special or 9mm.
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  #129  
Old 05-20-2010, 05:15 PM
FredBart FredBart is offline
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Default In my limited exposure to .380, I would say no.

As Erich states, proper bullet placement is key. If you want to carry a .380 as a primary weapon, I don't believe that you can reliably stop a full sized man with any certainty. As a secondary weapon, it could be OK at very short range.

I shot my new (never fired) North American Arms .380 Guardian the other day at a dark indoor range. At 7 yards, I kept all of the rounds in a vital zone, but the pattern was poor. The sights are non-existent on this pistol and with a 10-12 + pound trigger pull, these groups were nothing special.

I wouldn't trust this caliber as my only weapon. A "j" frame S&W is much better even though it is not an easy weapon to shoot with an aluminum frame.
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  #130  
Old 05-20-2010, 06:13 PM
rev. rev. is offline
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admittedly I've not read this whole thread, a bit long. However, returning from the range; I'm loading a Hornady 90gr.XPT ahead of 3.2grs. of Titegroup, and getting 931 vel.
at 9' from a Kel-tec and 960 from a Bursa Thunder.
Bullet expansion from the K-T in Ballistic Technology's "test tube" (a green waxy material) is .470". Penetration in this test medium from what I've been able to deduce is about the equiv. of 11-12" in ballistic gel.
I'm trusting this will work for social purposes but hope I never have to find out. If it doesn't expand, then it'll perform as a hard ball.
rev.
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  #131  
Old 05-20-2010, 08:07 PM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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GOV5, don't aim center mass. Aim for the upper chest. A .380 through the aorta will start the shut down process, or end hostilities immediately. Cartridges like the .357 magnum, .45 ACP ect. will, at times, turn marginal hits into stops whereas the .380 and other mouse gun cartridges are much less likely to do so. Carry a .380 as a BUG, or when nothing bigger will work.
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  #132  
Old 05-20-2010, 09:06 PM
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Erich Erich is offline
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Quote:
when they are shot Center Mass
"Center Mass" is not a helpful construct. To be sure of effecting a handgun stop, as many of us have mentioned up-thread and as FredBart and flop-shank point out, the bullet has to hit something that either results in an immediate failure of the upper body to receive oxygenated blood or else the upper central nervous system.

You can shoot someone in the stomach with a .500 S&W Magnum and still have a failure to stop. You shoot perforate his aorta with a .25 ACP, he's not going to be coming at you any more.

Aim for specific vitals - as I always preach - study Gray's Anatomy and learn to target the heart/aorta and the brain.

Gray, Henry. 1918. Anatomy of the Human Body
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  #133  
Old 11-04-2010, 10:30 AM
shootmup shootmup is offline
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Default 125gr hardcast in 380, Too heavy?

Hi everyone,
I'm new to the forum. This thread on the .380 interested me enough to join. Thank you for all the interesting reading/info and opinions. I've read the past postings on this thread, which go back quite aways. Erich, I'd especially like to thank you for your expertise.
My question is, I loaded up some 380s using a 125gr hard cast TC bullet from a Saeco mold. I've loaded them with W231. The bullet was supposed to be 122gr, but drops out of the mold at 125gr using wheelweights. Lyman list data for 120gr lead. I've dropped the charge for the heavier bullet. I haven't chronoed the round yet, but functions quite well through my LCP. Lyman list pressure for the 120gr as 15,800 C.U.P, and I imagine I'm running somewhere around there. Lyman list vel. for the 120gr at 946. Accuracy is good.
Am I out in left field with this load? Is this bullet really too heavy for the 380?
Shootmup
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  #134  
Old 11-08-2010, 10:32 AM
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Hi shootmup,

As you can see from my comments up thread I've experimented with a similar bullet, weight, and velocity. It appears to be too much of a good thing, too much penetration.

Good luck.
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  #135  
Old 11-08-2010, 09:13 PM
shootmup shootmup is offline
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Default 125gr XTP

Hey, thanks for the reply KScowboy. I've also loaded up and shot some 125gr XTPs. The problem with this combo is case bulge. Upon trying many different brands of cases, Winchester seems to have the least taper = less bulge. I used a Lee factory crimp die which sizes the loaded round for uniformity to deal with the bulge. I was concerned the resultant bullet base deformation would affect accuracy, but they actually shot fairly well out of my LCP. I loaded using W231, This is a fairly serious round, but I doubt effective expansion with .380 velocity. Probably not much different than ball ammo.
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  #136  
Old 11-09-2010, 09:40 AM
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shootmup,

I considered using a copper plated hollow point that hopefully would be soft enough to expand. As I found a 9mm that was the same size as my 380 I just switched to that rather than magnumize the 380.

As I've already loaded the hollow points I might as well shoot them some day to see what happens.
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  #137  
Old 08-05-2017, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BreakerDan View Post
Third the motion.

380 hollowpoints are not reliable expanders anyway.
You need all the penetration that you can get with mouse
guns. Thats why people in the know avoid the 110 gr JHP in the
38 spl even. The 380 is less than a hot 110gr 38, and they are notorious
for insufficient penetration. Ball is more reliable in pocket guns also and
is much cheaper. If I was carrying a 25,32,380, it would have nothing
but the heaviest full metal jacket I could get in it. Shot placement
is key, not wonder bullets. My humble opinion, if you need a mouse
gun, get a 38 snub.
One well placed shot trumps spray and pray
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  #138  
Old 08-08-2017, 02:45 PM
SuperMan SuperMan is offline
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Nice to see an old dead thread that still has a lot of relevance be resurrected...

Although my experience with .380s goes back to the late 1970s I naver carried one until recently. I used to be a commercial loader/reloader and made an identical round to wath CorBon now sells as their 90 grain +P JHP with the Sierra bullet. Found several hundred rounds that had never sold back in 2014 and ended up buying a Kahr P380 to just shoot them up in.

Was so pleased with the combination it replaced the KelTec 32 I had been carrying when carrying a standard size gun was impossible/impractical.

Carried the 90 grain load for a couple of years until I saw a video on the Underwood ammo with the Lehigh fluted solid copper bullets at significantly higher velocity and now use that ammo.

So what is everyone else using now...still ball?






Bob

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  #139  
Old 08-12-2017, 01:26 AM
Me239 Me239 is offline
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I'll throw in my two cents here. Best 380 ACP round I've seen hands down is the Hornaday XTP bullet. Hornaday, Fiocchi, HPR, and Precision One load them. The XTP expands very little (only .43" or so), but penetrate to 12"-15", even from 2.5" barrels.
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  #140  
Old 08-24-2017, 11:33 PM
amd6547 amd6547 is offline
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I usually avoid posting in necrothreads, but this is one of the best 380 threads I've read.
I've owned 380's in the past...classics like the Browning 1910/55 and a couple others. Shot them enough to know that the 9mm does just about everything I need a pistol to do, things a 380 can't.
I did have a P3AT for special occasions, but it was my only 380 for a few years.
Then, the Israeli surplus Beretta 84's showed up at attractive prices. I always wanted an 84 or a Browning BDA when I was younger, but couldn't swing the price.
I ordered up a near new looking Beretta 84F from CDI sales, for $279.
It would just be a Range gun, I thought. Take it out a few times to try it out and experience the pistol I wanted so long ago...the maybe trade for something at the gun show.
A Range Trip changed that plan. I found that the 84F shot really well in my hand. Great instinctive pointing, and I can hit the 10" steel plates my club has, at absurd distances for a 380.
Thus, I often find myself grabbing the Beretta for ccw or HD use, even though I have other suitable choices.
My 84 has been 100% reliable, feeding all the popular JHP choices. For serious carry, I load with Underwood +P XTP. This load is sizzling in the longer barrel of the 84F, and gives excellent accuracy.
I still have the P3AT...it get FMJ standard loads.
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  #141  
Old 08-25-2017, 07:50 AM
Triggernosis Triggernosis is offline
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Except for the danger to others caused by a pass-through, why is bullet expansion such an important factor to most people?
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