Too hot for an L frane?

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yaktamer

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Tried posting this in the reloading section, but got no response, so thought I;d try here.

Thinking about loading up some hot and heavy loads for my four inch 681. Speer lists a silhouette load, 180 grain full jacket over 14.5 -16.1 grains of H110. They list it in a separate section between the regular .357 and the .357 Maximum. The cylinder just makes the minimum length of 1.625" recommended. They warn only to use this load in "heavy frame" revolvers. If I recall correctly, pressure approaches 45,000. Are we talking N frame only?

(Nosler lists a similar silhouette bullet or a partition over 16-17 grains of H110, without any special warnings).
 
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The L frame was designed from the ground up to be a 357 mag, this load while hot should be just fine if you follow the necessary precautions. Start below the 14.5gr and work your way up, every gun is different and some will take more pressure than others before you get warning signs.
 
Given that Speer specifies a "haevy frame" revolver for this load, it would be likely that they are trying to steer reloaders away from using such loads in the smaller J/K frames. While the L frame is not as massive as the N frame, it is certainly not a small frame... more like a medium frame. Either CUP or PSI ("approaches 45,000") these loads are going to give real meaning to the word "hot." While such loads will not put pieces of a L frame into orbit, they will cause accelerated wear. Firing such loads in a N frame or a Ruger Blackhawk, etc. would be a better idea. Do consider that such notices as you find in the Speer manual are not just placed out of concern for legal issues. Manufacturers such as Speer, Nosler, etc. fire more rounds in development of their loading data than the average handloader will fire in a lifetime. The cautions they offer should be given due attention. Start with the beginning load and work up to a safe pressure and velocity. Regardless of what the book says, remember that any revolver or pistol is a law unto itself. A individual handgun may or may not be able to safely fire handload recipies in such manuals. The manuals are only guides. The individual handloader must use his own informed judgment as he develops loads for his handgun. HTH. Sincerely. brucev.
 
Thanks for the replies. Trust me, I'm not one to treat safety warnings lightly. In fact, I'm usually overly cautious. These are not rounds I was planning on using on a regular basis. The more I think about it, I'll probably stick with the 170 grain and under loads with substantially smaller pressures. Just one more reason I MUST purchase at LEAST one N frame (at least that's what I'll tell the wife):D
 
Those loads are really more at home in a Redhawk, or better still a F/A 83. You just can't put enough of any normally used powder in a .357, in the case to blow one of them.
 
Special Warning for 296/ H110 from Hodgdon:
So not go below minimum loads. You may get into case filling issues and experience anomalous high pressures and gun failure.

You pretty much have to use them as stated. I would use the 14.5 and try it, if you must.
I assure you won't like it. H110/296 (same powder) is very slow and works better in LONG barrels. From a 4-inch L frame, it is brutal, loud, and a horrendous fireball. The velocity loss from 8 in to 4 in with H110 is exceptionally large.
 
Thanks for the reply. Any particular powders you would recommend for 158 grain and over bullets out of a four inch?
 
OKFC05 said:
Special Warning for 296/ H110 from Hodgdon:
So not go below minimum loads. You may get into case filling issues and experience anomalous high pressures and gun failure.

You pretty much have to use them as stated. I would use the 14.5 and try it, if you must.
I assure you won't like it. H110/296 (same powder) is very slow and works better in LONG barrels. From a 4-inch L frame, it is brutal, loud, and a horrendous fireball. The velocity loss from 8 in to 4 in with H110 is exceptionally large.
Click to expand...

Is that H110 and Winchester 296 are the same?
 
FHBrumb said:
Is that H110 and Winchester 296 are the same?
Click to expand...

Yes. They are the exact same powder, and come out of the exact same spout at Hodgdon's plant. Hodgdon owns both brands and has for quite a long time. When Winchester was selling powder under its own banner, it was still the exact same powder. HP 38 and 231 are the same also. There is info on this in the most recent issue of Handloader magazine.
 
Buckeye,

Yeah, in looking at the Speer manual again I noticed the 35,000 reference re: industry max. for .357. That's why I'm a little surprised there aren't any warnings other than "heavy frame." Ordinarily, e.g., ultra hot .45 long colt, there are very specific model restrictions (Redhawk, FA, etc.). Suffice to say I like my 681 too much for metallurgy experiments, so I'll just have to buy a Model 57 or 29 to suit my purposes.:)
 
It's a good idea to have a Ruger single action for experimenting with hot loads. They are extremely strong, but don't cost an arm and a leg.

000_0052.jpg


While it is very possible to blow up a gun, in my experience, the biggest problem you'll have is with the revolver going "out of time," which is where the cylinder gets twisted in the frame. I've had this happen with two different Model 29s - using light .44 loads. I've never seen a Ruger single action go out of time.

My second choices would be a Ruger GP100, or, my favorite, a S&W Model 28.

But I would NEVER shoot very hot loads from an "L" frame Smith. They just are not made for that sort of abuse.
 
ooooooooooooooooops

Also just noticed that the Nosler load info I quoted above was for the .357 Maximum and single shots. Load for the mag is substantially less. Moral: Never reload when home with the flu and wrangling three rugrats!
 
FWIW, I load a 180g Lyman 358429 over 15.5g W296 with a WSP for my 4" 586 and 5" 627-0.

Works like a charm!

Work your way up like you normally would - safety is #1.
 
WVfishguy said:
While it is very possible to blow up a gun, in my experience, the biggest problem you'll have is with the revolver going "out of time," which is where the cylinder gets twisted in the frame. I've had this happen with two different Model 29s - using light .44 loads. I've never seen a Ruger single action go out of time.
Click to expand...

:eek::eek::confused::confused:
Not quite. If you have twisted the cylinder in relationship to the frame, you have gone way off track.

Timing issues are due to wear to the stop notch, cylinder stop and/or its recess, and wear to the hand and hand window, and/or the ratchet. Excess endshake can also cause trouble. Rugers SA's can and do get out of time, though not as often as DA guns, due to their simplicity.
 
As stated earlier, with a four inch barrel you are really wasting your time, creating muzzle blast, possibly getting unburned power, and putting unnecessary stress on your gun when using H110/296. They are excellent powders in long barreled, large capacity cases (44 magnum, 45 colt etc). While they work well in 357 mags, you would be better off using Unique or a powder of similar burn rate in your four inch. It will burn completely, produce modest pressure (compared to large amounts of H110/296) and velocities, due to your shorter barrel, with not be that far behind the slower powders. Oh, it will be considerably cheaper to shoot in that you will get, roughly, 50 percent more loads out of a pound of powder.
 
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