need info on 3rd gen DAO trigger characteristics

oldtexan

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I've used the search function several times trying to find out this info, but have been unsuccessful.

What I'm seeking are some specifics on current/recent 3rd Gen DAO (5943, 5946, 4043, etc) trigger characteristics. I'm looking for weight of trigger pull, distance of trigger pull, length of reset, etc.

Also does anyone find that they tend to short stroke the trigger on these guns?

How vigorous is the reset on this trigger system? similar to a stock Glock? similar to a stock k-frame? similar to a Kahr? etc?

Thanks in advance for responses.
 
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Not really as easy of a question to answer within the context you want. Might as well compare the way things smell to different folks. ;)

The original DAO pistols (machined sears, hammers & triggers), predating the TSW line, had a shorter trigger stroke than the later DAO design (which used MIM sears, hammers & triggers). Some of the older DAO models might come with a lighter main spring, too.

The hammer is 'located' (staged) to the rear by the sear nose when the pistol is charged (slide retracted to load a round), which allows the hammer's throw notch to rotate forward and engage with the drawbar. This controls the position of the trigger and the subsequent length of the trigger stroke required to fire the pistol.

The older slides were longer in the rear and allowed the older DAO hammers to be located more to the rear (or 'cocked' more, so to speak) which made for a subsequently shorter trigger stroke than the newer style design. How much shorter? I've not bothered to measure it, but most folks who shoot both DAO models seem able to recognize the difference.

The MIM and machined hammers and sears can't be mixed in the same pistol because improper contact between the assemblies would result. Machined hammers must be used with machined sears and MIM hammers must be used with MIM sears.

There are some other differences when it comes to the frames, but that gets off into other things. Things like whether a spring is required under the firing pin safety lever (and a 'spacer' sear release lever is needed) and at which point the disconnector must be installed in the frame comparing the TDA and DAO models.

The new style MIM DAO parts can be used to change a 3rd gen TDA (DA/SA) pistol into a DAO variation. (And the shorter TDA slides needed to have the DAO hammers located less far to the rear, which mechanically made for a subsequently longer trigger stroke.)

Regardless of which DAO design is being used, if the trigger isn't allowed to "recover" (return forward) to the point necessary for the hammer to be located to the rear by the sear nose so it can be positioned to properly engage with the drawbar, the gun isn't going to function properly (meaning you can 'short stroke the DAO trigger of either design in much the same way you can short stroke a DA revolver).

"Vigorous reset", using the Glock as an example? During the reset of the Glock design the connector spring snaps outward over the tail of the trigger bar. This vigorous snapping of the connector spring makes a loud noise. It occurs very close to the rear of the slide and there's enough of a gap between the frame, slide and slide end cap to seemingly make the noise more apparent to the shooter if they're specifically looking for it. It can also be felt (even with the slide removed from the frame during an armorer inspection) and I suspect this is probably what most folks construe as the 'reset' point in the Glock's trigger recovery. I'd think that the recovery/reset of the S&W DAO involves a bit less of an audible and tactile mechanical sensation.

If I had time I'd try to take a couple of pictures and post them showing the relationship of the parts to each other.

Does this help answer your question a little, or did I muddy the waters even more?
 
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I tried the trigger on a S&W 4046, DAO, for the first time, yesterday, at a cop shop/gun dealers. I had read some comments from some on the board comparing it to a Glock's and I was thinking about getting one.

It sucked big time as compared to S&W revolvers and as compared to my Glock 22 or my CZ82.

It was way TOO LONG and way TOO HEAVY. In fairness, I only tried one example.

Many here have experience shooting them and like them, though. I guess that with practice it would be manageable. I'm just not used to a DA pull like that.

It looked just like this one. They were LEO trade-ins (very good+ to excellent condition) going for $400.

sw4046tsw.jpg
 
I've been shooting "DAO" style handguns since 1990. Just about everything, including Smiths, Berettas, Glocks, Sigs and revolvers. I can honestly say that I've never noticed the "reset" point, length of pull or trigger weight on any of them.

If you follow the same fundamentals for every handgun, it isn't an issue. The only thing I have ever noticed was the smoothness of the pull. Berettas are the slickest, followed by the pre-MIM Smiths. Glock is dead last. Feels like springing a mouse trap of some sort.

I'll try figure out some measurements for you, but it wil take a while.
 
I own a Glock, two S&W DAOs, and a Para Ordnance LDA (plus some SA 1911s). Although the Glock is sold as a DAO, I believe it is actually a single action pistol without a safety lever. It is fully cocked before the trigger is pulled. The trigger only releases the sear. It does not cock anything. My Glock has a light trigger stroke up to the release point, and a short, crisp release with no real overtravel. It is a great trigger. But I don't think is is truly a DAO. It is a single action with a cocked internal striker instead of a cocked external hammer.
 
Not really as easy of a question to answer within the context you want. Might as well compare the way things smell to different folks. ;)

The original DAO pistols (machined sears, hammers & triggers), predating the TSW line, had a shorter trigger stroke than the later DAO design (which used MIM sears, hammers & triggers). Some of the older DAO models might come with a lighter main spring, too.

The hammer is 'located' (staged) to the rear by the sear nose when the pistol is charged (slide retracted to load a round), which allows the hammer's throw notch to rotate forward and engage with the drawbar. This controls the position of the trigger and the subsequent length of the trigger stroke required to fire the pistol.

The older slides were longer in the rear and allowed the older DAO hammers to be located more to the rear (or 'cocked' more, so to speak) which made for a subsequently shorter trigger stroke than the newer style design. How much shorter? I've not bothered to measure it, but most folks who shoot both DAO models seem able to recognize the difference.

The MIM and machined hammers and sears can't be mixed in the same pistol because improper contact between the assemblies would result. Machined hammers must be used with machined sears and MIM hammers must be used with MIM sears.

There are some other differences when it comes to the frames, but that gets off into other things. Things like whether a spring is required under the firing pin safety lever (and a 'spacer' sear release lever is needed) and at which point the disconnector must be installed in the frame comparing the TDA and DAO models.

The new style MIM DAO parts can be used to change a 3rd gen TDA (DA/SA) pistol into a DAO variation. (And the shorter TDA slides needed to have the DAO hammers located less far to the rear, which mechanically made for a subsequently longer trigger stroke.)

Regardless of which DAO design is being used, if the trigger isn't allowed to "recover" (return forward) to the point necessary for the hammer to be located to the rear by the sear nose so it can be positioned to properly engage with the drawbar, the gun isn't going to function properly (meaning you can 'short stroke the DAO trigger of either design in much the same way you can short stroke a DA revolver).

"Vigorous reset", using the Glock as an example? During the reset of the Glock design the connector spring snaps outward over the tail of the trigger bar. This vigorous snapping of the connector spring makes a loud noise. It occurs very close to the rear of the slide and there's enough of a gap between the frame, slide and slide end cap to seemingly make the noise more apparent to the shooter if they're specifically looking for it. It can also be felt (even with the slide removed from the frame during an armorer inspection) and I suspect this is probably what most folks construe as the 'reset' point in the Glock's trigger recovery. I'd think that the recovery/reset of the S&W DAO involves a bit less of an audible and tactile mechanical sensation.

If I had time I'd try to take a couple of pictures and post them showing the relationship of the parts to each other.

Does this help answer your question a little, or did I muddy the waters even more?

Fastbolt, thanks. Don't bother with the pics.

I'm specifically interested only in the newer MIM-parts guns; I'm considering a 5943 TSW, or a 5903 TSW converted to DAO.

I asked for the subjective impression of the vigorousness of the reset because as a long-time Glock, S&W revolver, Kahr, and 1911 guy, those are guns I can use as a basis of comparison.

Reference short stroking, I understand that the DAO S&W autos don't function if short-stroked. Here I'm defining short stroking as attempting to begin rearward movement of the trigger without first allowing it to go forward sufficiently far for all the trigger system components to "reset" for the next shot. I understand that some users (especially Glock /1911 guys) of some hammer-fired DAO autos (ie SIG P250 and others )have reported short stroking the trigger when attempting to fire at a fast pace. If folks with heavy Glock or 1911 experience are reporting this experience with a DAO S&W 3rd gen gun, then that would be a useful piece of data to me.
 
I've been shooting "DAO" style handguns since 1990. Just about everything, including Smiths, Berettas, Glocks, Sigs and revolvers. I can honestly say that I've never noticed the "reset" point, length of pull or trigger weight on any of them.

If you follow the same fundamentals for every handgun, it isn't an issue. The only thing I have ever noticed was the smoothness of the pull. Berettas are the slickest, followed by the pre-MIM Smiths. Glock is dead last. Feels like springing a mouse trap of some sort.

I'll try figure out some measurements for you, but it wil take a while.

Kurt, thanks. I allow my finger to go forward only far enough to allow the trigger to reset especially with Glocks and 1911s. I find that for me it allows the best combination of speed and accuracy. Because of this experience I am conditioned to feel for the reset and to begin moving the trigger rearward immediately after sensing that reset. I intentionally try to avoid my trigger finger losing contact with the trigger.
 

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