An urban protection rifle

I know the black rifles and carbines are all the rage these days, mostly in .223, 7.62x39mm and 9mm caliber. I have no doubt as to their efficacy as firearms for urban protection. But, their appearance still means "assault rifle" to the general public, and even displaying one could have serious consequences, particularly if police response is involved.

I've long been a student of Jeff Cooper, and he had often said that a good lever action carbine in a serious pistol caliber could serve the need as well as any semiauto "black rifle." I've given some thought to this, and recently acquired a lever carbine that may fill the bill to "repel boarders."

This is a Browning Model 92 Winchester clone, made in Japan in 1983. These rifles were imported by Browning from 1978 to 1987. They are very close replicas of the original Winchesters, and incorporate no politically correct safeties such as seen on the recent Rossi/Puma import clones of the '92.

This rifle is very well made, and the '92 action is very slick. This one feeds .44 magnum and .44 special ammo flawlessly.

It will give you 12 rounds of more than adequate power very quickly, and will not raise eyebrows as an "evil gun." Coupled with a revolver in the same caliber, the combination could be very effective in a defensive role.

Here's the gun:



It now joins my other pistol-caliber lever actions. Top to bottom: Winchester 94/22 - .22 LR, Rossi Model 92 in .357 magnum, and a Winchester Model 94AE "Trapper" in .45 Colt. All of these handle easily and are a delight to carry.



Anyone else see the utility of these guns based on century-old designs?

John

I think that is an excellent concept. I love pistol caliber carbines, and that Browning is a great little gun.

I've got a stainless Rossi .357 model 92 and it works flawlessly. However, I did replace the sights with some more usable- a brass bead front and a semi-buckhorn rear Marbles. I'm tempted to get one of the 24" barrel stainless rifles in .357 from Rossi too, since they are so much more affordable than the new Marlins, especially in stainless. Stainless isn't traditional, but it looks good to me on rifles- I don't care for it on revolvers.

I have a Uberti Golden Boy in .45 Colt. In addition to being able to use it in Cowboy Mounted Shooting and Single Action Shooting, it makes a handy, non-threatening HD rifle, although limited in range.

I agree and have a Win 94 in 44 mag and a 92 clone in 357. I would feel well armed with either.

Yep I love them. I have Marlin 357 and 44 Mag with several matching caliber(s) S&W's

This thread is timely. My Chief Deputy, in what little spare time he has, is writing a lesson plan for teaching a POST approved lever action carbine course.
IMO (ok , I know all the SWAT guys are falling out of their chairs) that a lever action carbine makes a great patrol rifle. Simple, easy to use, accurate to 100 yards by most any quality of shooter, hard hitting in 30-30 (pistol calibers don't thrill me as much as a 30-30 does, but either way the concept is valid) non threatening to even the most anti gun mayor and city council, and it gives a patrol officer a good tool to solve 100 yard or so problems.
Maintance is minimal, there are no parts or magazines to loose, or insert backwards (I guess everyone has seen the photo) and after 7 rounds you can drop 'em in the chamber and keep shooting.
A 30-30 would have solved the problem in North Hollywood several years ago, as well as any number of other gunfights over the past 20, or 200 years.
John Wayne carried one, how threatening can they be?????. Leverguns are the American carbine, they are not evil in anyone's mind.
I carried one back in the day, and I always felt good about having it with me....I still have that levergun, I will have it til I die...it is loaded right now, ready for duty should the need arise....

safearm said:

it makes a handy, non-threatening HD rifle, although limited in range.

Click to expand...

How long is your hallway? Mine's quite a bit shorter than 100 yds.

I'd have to agree with the OP and the good Colonel. I remember reading his article when it first came out, and at first I thought he was really making a mistake. . .but I am no rifleman. I showed that article to a friend of mine who is a real rifleman, and he went to his safe, pulled out his .44 levergun, and took me outside to show me what he could do with it. In the hands of a skilled operator, it is one heckuva weapon. My deer rifle is a Marlin in .30-30. I especially like the idea of one cartridge for both pistol and carbine, and as soon as I get past my S&W M&P 15 fixation, I just may acquire a second lever gun in .44 Magnum. But first, I am bound and determined to master this EBR which really is a fine firearm.


Bullseye

I've had a Mini-14, SKS, AR15, and M-4 and don't really miss any of them.
That lever action Browning would be perfect for me if I could blacken that gold trigger.

All great choices, and for all the reasons you mentioned plus they are great range and hunting guns. I have almost exactly the same collection, except my .357 is a Marlin 1894C. A 125gr 357Mag out of a carbine is a devastating proposition for HD.

I sold my Mini-14 and replaced it with this:

One can easily adapt combat shotgunning techniques to feed a levergun on the go. in .30-30, you have 150 to 180 grain bullets out there and everything in between.

The levergun is a solid choice for an all around rifle to include for use in social occasions.

Get a non tricked out Mini 14 or a pump action Remington 7615 if for some reason you want to avoid the EBR look (or even an M1 Garand), however anyone that's seen recent military service is going to equate "M4/M16 = good guy".

Pistol caliber carbines, particularly lever action ones have some problems that haven't been mentioned:

1. Pistol bullets, esp. when upped to carbine velocities, penetrate more walls/barriers than does 5.56mm, particularly JHP rounds or light M193 type ball. This is why LE moved away from 9mm subguns and to M4 carbines and their ilk to begin with.

2. Conversely, pistol bullets at carbine velocities will NOT penetrate soft armor. 5.56mm will, unless someone has rifle plates. M955 black tip (not sold commercially, but can be obtained) meanwhile will even penetrate many rifle plates. (It penetrates as well, or better than, the old M2 .30-06 black tip stuff.)

3. Pistol bullets are generally designed to work best within a certain velocity range. That does not always include the highest possible velocity or carbine ballistics.

4. While hit probabality increases with a shoulder arm, a pistol caliber carbine lacks the range of a real carbine. It's going to work best in the same 0 to 100meter range as a shotgun, and not the 0-300ish meter range of an M4 clone or the 0-600 meter range of an A4 type rifle.

5. No flash suppression device on the muzzle. Think that doesn't matter? Try firing them at night or in enclosed spaces....

6. The commercial/hunting grade parts of the magazine tube may or may not take well to being left loaded for long periods of time.

7.Lever actions aren't terribly great for shooting when prone or from odd positions. That's why they never saw widespread military adoption even during their heyday.

8. Not the easiest thing to use one handed, now is it?

9. Often will be longer/bulkider than an EBR. I've got a Marlin in .357 Winchester sitting in the corner next to an an M4 clone with the stock partially collapsed. The Marlin is longer and more likely to catch or bang into things if I use it indoors. Same situation with my .30-30. Get a side folder like a Sig 556 or what not, the weapon can become more portable still.

10. The lack of an adjustable stock means problems fitting different people or when used with armor. (I have armor. Works great. If someone doesn't... well you probably spent your money on the wrong things if you're actually worried about needing a rifle or carbine for defense.)

11. Our old friend that elusive concept of stopping power - it favors rifles or carbines firing rifle projectiles unless someone wants to use their Marlin Guide Gun to launch .45-70s projectiles.

12. Optics and lights are your friends up close and in the dark. Mounting these to a lever action means breaking out the duct tape.

13. the Unlucky number - it's possible to choke a lever gun when operating it under stress much more easily than any sort of remotely properly maintained EBR.

14. Better hope that you never have to reload... I personally would rather deal with the gross motor skill of inserting a fresh magazine into a bit hole compared to puttling small individual cartridges into a small loading gate.

That's 14 too many potential "oops" problems for my liking, compared to the vague possibility that someone might think the weapon that I just used to shoot someone looks nasty. People don't watch that many cowboy movies these days, they do see images on the news/in movies of M4 armed troops identified with "America" and "defense". It's the Garand of today.

If we really want to play what if, a modern audience might think someone is odd or watches too many cowboy movies and thinks they are John Wayne if someone is keeping a lever gun/six gun combo around. That's just about as likely as being villified for an EBR.

"11. Our old friend that elusive concept of stopping power - it favors rifles or carbines firing rifle projectiles unless someone wants to use their Marlin Guide Gun to launch .45-70s projectiles."

Hmmm...good point. I think keeping a few monster level 405gr loads handy for the Browning 1886 might be a good idea. Even if you can't penetrate their armor, you can thump 'em real good!

GatorFarmer. . .simply an awesome post. Like I say, I am no rifleman, but I am learning, and your post was extremely instructive.


Bullseye

This IMI Timberwolf .357/.38 pump and an old mod 28 ought to get me by.


And the Camp 9 ain't black


No pistol to match but it's not an evil black .223

Gator Farmer:

Really good points, and well thought out. My only point was that one could do a lot worse than the old lever actions, and not alarm the populace with an EBR. I betcha I could walk around my neighborhood with that '92 with no consequences, where an M4 would probably result in a goodly number of "man with a gun" calls to the police!

I personally would feel more than adequately armed with 12 rounds of .44 mag in a handy and reliable carbine that can place the rounds accurately out to 100 yards or more. I would guess that most goblins will not have bullet-resistant vests; what are the odds?

By the same token, I'm not selling my 5.56mm M4 topped with an Aimpoint and equipped with a blinding side light, for all the reasons you mentioned.

In my mind, blue steel and walnut do beat anodized aluminum and parkerizing any day for aesthetics. I guess I'm a die-hard aesthete as well as a dinosaur...!

John

Bullseye 2620 said:

GatorFarmer. . .simply an awesome post. Like I say, I am no rifleman, but I am learning, and your post was extremely instructive.


Bullseye

Click to expand...

Gator is the resident Urban Survival Expert on the board. He also can be quite helpful on pharmacutical and mental health issues as well-he did spend his formative years in Lansing MI
I do miss the Realtor Bob stories though.

I have the Marlin carbines in 357 and 44 Magnum, also both Camp Carbines. I would probably opt for the latter, the 45 Camp Carbine uses M1911 magazines-at least mine does, magazines for my S&W M659 work fine in my 9MM Camp carbine. Rifle and handgun in same caliber-I like that.