Brand new S&W...and some problems

ExMachina1 · Jan 31, 2011

Just picked up a brand spanking new S&W 22-4 today.

After playing with it for a few hours, it's clear that this gun seems to have some troubles.

The problems that I have noticed so far:
1) Opening and closing the cylinder is sticky. It releases with difficulty and sometimes is hard to close. Not smooth at all.
2) A few of the cylinder's pawl notches are rough and worn at strange angles.
3) The ejector star does not always seat properly following extraction
4) As a result of #3, it looks like someone at some point in the revolver's handling has dinged the blast shield with the cylinder pin when it was stuck too far out
5) There are scratches/gouges in the frame where it looks like the barrel was screwed in (ie, the face of the frame where the base of the barrel meets it)

None of these (other than the sticky cylinder opening) were apparent before I bought the gun. Timing is perfect and the trigger is smooth albeit heavy.

Right now, I'm trying to decide if I'm better off sending it straight to S&W now, of if I can shoot it some. Basically, I want S&W to know that these problems existed with the gun as it left the factory (ie, I didn't do anything).

Will S&W give me a hard time if I take this to the range before I send it in to them?

Also, when I send it in, are their any "tricks" to getting this gun a little added attention?

Thank you for any insights.

Bullseye Smith · Feb 1, 2011

Sounds like it is burned up with oil

. Oil and clean the gun first, use a old tooth brush and some lite oil (honing oil good). Bet your problems go away.

ExMachina1 · Feb 1, 2011

Bullseye Smith said:
Sounds like it is burned up with oil . Oil and clean the gun first, use a old tooth brush and some lite oil (honing oil good). Bet your problems go away.

Thanks. I am hoping that the cylinder smooths out. But what about problems number 3 and 5? The ejector star rotates enough that it won't re-seat all the time and there are scrapes in the frame around the barrel base.

And I guess I am also concerned about problem number two--a couple of the pawl notches have quite a bit of rough wear on them that looks like it's getting worse...

TAROMAN · Feb 1, 2011

I feel your pain. I recently received a new 21-4 (close cousin of yours). It had B/C gap of .014, a notch in the forcing cone and a front sight that was so loose that it flopped both side to side and fore to aft.
I called S&W service and they sent out a FEDEX tag, without much discussion at all. Gun was back in 3 weeks, with a new barrel.
Appears to me that this is cheaper for S&W than running a comprehensive quality control operation would be.
My advice: send it in.

BTW, I was on their website and there's a link under customer service where you can order the return ship label online.

Good luck.

ExMachina1 · Feb 1, 2011

Great to hear that S&W stands behind their products. Sad to hear that crappy QC seems to be the rule--this is my second "brand new" gun and the first of any of my guns that has had to go back to the factory

Disappointing.

I suppose I'll shoot it some before I send mine back.

Stainz · Feb 1, 2011

If there is any trash under the ejector star - especially up at the star/axle juncture, it will be difficult to close the cylinder. Clean with Hoppes #9 and a nylon brush - wipe dry - watch out for leaving a cotton thread. Also, check the ejector rod for tightness - recall it's a LH thread (Looking at the front of the cylinder, turn CCW to tighten. Only tighten with an empty case in three of the chambers.).

If you still have trouble closingthe cylinder, by all means - call them for a return label.

Good luck.

Stainz

Geronimo Jim · Feb 1, 2011

One reason my rule of thumb buying Smith's is "pinned and recessed". Good luck.

ExMachina1 · Feb 1, 2011

Stainz said:
If there is any trash under the ejector star - especially up at the star/axle juncture, it will be difficult to close the cylinder.

Thanks. Unfortunately gun is clean. The problem is that the star rotates enough to not seat properly every time. This problem is separate from the cylinder sticking and I am now suspecting that the shroud-mounted, ejector rod pin is to blame for this (ie, is to blame for the cylinder's stickiness).

allglock · Feb 1, 2011

Good luck! S&W quality control is horrible at this point in time! I sent a NIB 340PD back, and they sent me a replacement, that was just as bad! I am waiting on the refund as we speak. I purchased the gun at the beginning of Dec. 2010. Still nothing as of 2-1-2010...... Good luck my friend!

hastings · Feb 1, 2011

I bought a used 22-4 Thunder Ranch revolver about a year ago, and it had a few problems that I think precipitated the original owner selling it. The cylinder face at the throats looked like the throat rims were pushed upward, like if you push a nail thru sheetmetal. Not a lot, but enough to notice. Also, the ejector tube was to long, making opening the cylinder difficult. I kept the gun, filed down the end of the ejector rod tube and it has become my favorite revolver. The cylinder face is odd looking, but it does not affect the accuracy or velocity based on several hundred rounds of 45acp and a couple hundred 45autorim rounds. It's a great gun. If I had bought it new, it would have gone back to S&W, but since it was used and the price was pretty good I opted to keep her and work out the kinks. I'm glad I did.

This does bring up the question: how can current manufacturers think it's okay to charge astronomical prices for firearms that often need replacement parts, won't shoot to poa, look like they were finished on a belt sander, and have questionable cylinder throat diameters. The throat thing may be history, but come on. Buying a new firearm for $600-$1000 that requires additional work to function properly and reliably is absolutely and completely absurd. Some people buy new handguns and immediately send them out to by accurized or tuned. I have a hard time imagining that for $1000 msrp they can't work out the bugs, tighten up the fit and finish, and produce a great gun consistently.

Okay, I've vented. I feel better. I understand about quality control, acceptable percentages of call-backs vs price of hand-inspections, and the expected miss-rate for human inspections overlooking flaws. Nevertheless, we're not talking about soda bottles or single component goods here. Are these guns going from automated production machine to box without being handled or tested? You shouldn't need to buy a performance center gun, or have a new one worked on, to expect reliable, accurate performance. Am I out of my mind on this, or what.

ExMachina1 · Feb 1, 2011

hastings said:
Also, the ejector tube was to long, making opening the cylinder difficult.

Interesting. That may very well be the problem with my gun.

blujax01 · Feb 1, 2011

S&W recently named a new CFO (Jeff Buchanan) and filed a form 8-K (whatever that is) with the SEC on 14 January.

Whatever it is, there's a lot of "$000,000's" involved.

SMITH & WESSON HOLDING CORP - FORM 8-K - January 18, 2011

nofishbob · Feb 1, 2011

Hastings wrote:

You shouldn't need to buy a performance center gun, or have a new one worked on, to expect reliable, accurate performance.

Its worse than you think. I have a brand new PC revolver back at S&W right now. It was a mess.

Nobody looks at these guns before they are shipped, at least nobody who cares.

Bob

hastings · Feb 1, 2011

I can't speak for the other issues, but it's pretty easy to tell if the ejector rod tube is hanging up on the end pin mounted in the barrel lug. If the rod inside the tube doesn't push the retention pin beyond the end of the knurled ejector rod tube, it may open but it will feel sticky and have the same amount of resistance as when you close the cylinder without pushing the ejector knob. I simply removed the cylinder, and then the tube (a slightly more tricky process) and rotated it on a small file, reassembling intermittently to make sure I removed just enough material from the knurled end to allow it to bypass the pin when the ejector knob was fully depressed. Now it opens flawlessly.

I think that if you are dealing with a new gun you ought to send it back to the factory. I wouldn't mind tinkering with a used gun, but if you screw something up on it and then send it back they will charge to fix it. They should make it right on their dime if it's brand new.

I can't speak highly enough about the 22-4 when it works correctly. I carry mine daily, and shoot it often. It shoots to poa with 255gr lswc 45acp or 45autorim reloads, and is easy to point. No adjustable sights to hang up on clothing, or break. Square butt N-frame grip (gotta love that). Yeah, it has the lock, but mine shoots so well it's easy to overlook the lock. My trigger pull is a little stiff, but very smooth. I prefer a heavier trigger on a defense handgun, anyway. Good luck with yours. I look forward to hearing the end result, and your impression of the corrected revolver.

Thanks
Hastings

ExMachina1 · Feb 1, 2011

hastings said:
I can't speak highly enough about the 22-4 when it works correctly. I carry mine daily, and shoot it often. It shoots to poa with 255gr lswc 45acp or 45autorim reloads, and is easy to point. No adjustable sights to hang up on clothing, or break. Square butt N-frame grip (gotta love that). Yeah, it has the lock, but mine shoots so well it's easy to overlook the lock.

that's exactly why i bought it and why i chose to overlook the cylinder issue at time of transfer. it's the only S&W gun i have seen since they introduced the lock that motivated me to buy it anyway.

sadly, according to three dealers i spoke with, the 22-4 has now been dropped from the S&W catalog

hastings · Feb 1, 2011

What's next, a polymer N-frame with a tang frame like the Ruger GP100?

Hopefully they are dropping the 22-4 45acp so they can replace it with a 45colt or 44mag model. Now wouldn't they be sweet revolvers, regardless of the lock.

ExMachina1 · Feb 2, 2011

ok.

just found another potential problem--45AR cartridges will extract half-way and then slip UNDER the extractor star where they will then stick (if they don't fall out)

this is not correct behavior for a 45ACP revolver i assume??

tdan · Feb 2, 2011

That new gun of yours seems to have a fair amount of issues. What caught my eye is your observation that the extractor does not retract into the cylinder recess properly. The center of the cylinder has a "D" shaped hole that the flat spot of your extactor rod assembly is indexed to. Perhaps the hole is a bit wallowed/oversized, or the rod assembly is undersized. Seems like there must be a lot of slop, since you mentioned the extractor "arms" are slipping over the rims of your AR brass. As another poster mentioned, your extractor rod may be too long. With the cylinder open, take a penny and press down on the center pin till the penny is flat with the extractor. Then take a look at the end of the extractor rod. The center pin should slightly protrude above that bevel on the knurled end. If that center pin is slightly below the end of the extractor rod, that is most likely why your cylinder does not unlatch properly. That center pin has to protrude enough to contact the spring-loaded forward locking bolt for a smooth cylinder release.

I don't know what to make of your barrel/frame attachment without pics. I'd really like to see pics of those cylinder stop notches that look defective. Burrs on the cylinder notches can also cause sticky release of the cylinder. Simply sounds like your gun was not really properly assembled. Since it is new, I would give Smith the opportunity to fix it under warranty. Simply include a laundry list of everything that you find suspect. I know it is always a gamble when you order a gun sight unseen, but these threads regarding poor QC on new S&W products are becoming far too common. From what I can see, lately it seems Smith is trying to match Taurus...........both in quality and offerings!

ExMachina1 · Feb 2, 2011

thanks for your thoughtful reply tdan. your penny test is a good one and yes indeed, turns out the center pin sits just below flush when i press on the other end. that is certainly a/the source of the sticking. and you're also correct that there's a lot of rotational slop in the extractor.

i've taken a couple of (not great) pics of the cylinder face and of the scratches in the frame. the cylinder pawl notches are weird in that only a couple are showing the wear and they are on the opposite side as is contacted by the pawl. ironically, i'm actually counting my blessings that the scratches around the base of the barrel are "just" cosmetic

i've already submitted my return request, so fingers crossed!

donvieira · Feb 19, 2011

-Reading this thread made me realize am not alone in my PC revolver issues.

-I am both sad and upset that a company with the reputation of S&W would allow this to happen to their product which for so many years was "simply the best".

-I hope to hear from the Manager at S&W Tuesday in regards to my resending back my revolver. I am going to ask for a refund if they cannot make it right.

-I fear I may have to wait for S&W to "get their house cleaned up" before I purchase another firearm from them again. I never thought I'd feel this way toward S&W, but there is no excuse for what is going on.

Brand new S&W...and some problems

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