Question for you FFL dealers out there.

I live in a state where there is a 48 waiting period for handguns but long guns are directly over the counter sales. Background checks for handguns are done on the State's DOJ system but checks for long guns are Federal (NICS).

Is it a violation of ATFE regulations to fill out 4473's & do the background checks before the firearm to be transferred is physically in the possession of the dealer? Obviously, the point of this is to get the waiting period rolling on a handgun while it is in transit from out of state.



Bruce

I no longer have an FFL and can't tell you one way or the other but from my perspective, I wouldn't fill out the form unless I had the firearm in my posession to verify the serial number with my own eyes. Call me anal but without the dealer having that specific knowledge don't you think he'd really be taking a roll of the dice? Strictly my opinion nothing more, nothing less

There is no waiting period for handguns or long guns in my state. I do often have requests from NFA customers to initiate a form 4 on an NFA weapon while I am waiting on the form 3 to clear. That is a no no, so I am inclined to think it would not be a good thing to do on a Title I firearm either. To my way of thinking it is kinda like putting the cart before the horse. Before I would do such a thing I would check with ATF first.

That's my opinion.

The 4473 is a transfer of possession form. I would be happy to learn how one can transfer an item one does not, nor has ever had, in possession.

If it is not logged, it cannot be transferred.

I understand that the 4473 is a transfer of possession form. In my case with a handgun, the state does not require the serial number to approve the transfer and the written form is not submitted in order to secure it. Further, NICS is not involved. I was under the impression that my signature and the date is essentially needed to construct a sworn statement certifying that the answers to the questions on both the 4473 and the State form are truthful. Further, I don't expect the transferring dealer to sign off and date the form until the gun is ready for transfer. Therefore, although I have filled out the 4473 and the phone call for the transfer approval is made to Wisconsin DOJ before the gun is in possession, all of this would seem to allow all of the short strokes to be handled and moved out of the way before the physical transfer and sign-offs by the dealer are added to the paperwork. I understand that the situation is different with a long gun because my state in not involved and the approval of is obtained thru NICS and entering that system requires different things. I cannot speak to the transfer of any NFA weapon but in that scenario, it would seem that the processing and approval of one form is required before the second can be submitted. In my situation at least, this does not appear to be the case. Also, the transfer of a handgun in States with proprietary instacheck systems but no waiting period would present yet a different set of circumstances. So would a situation where a custom gun was ordered and paid for but the lead time for delivery is protracted. In the final case, pre-approving the transfer would be unreasonable but in my case, we're taking about a few days maximum. Possibly the issue is that there is no sunset on the life of the approval; it's a here and now situation. Fine for the vast majority of transfers, especially when waiting periods are not an issue but inconvenient when they are.

Interesting situation.

Bruce

CHasing this rabbit a little more, and my having bought a lot of guns from dealers, I still do not know exactly what information is given from form 4473 during the call for approval.

Certainly the name, address, DOB, SS and gun type are given but what else? Is there any serial numbers given or say gun model?

I am also being told there is a new form that is done on computer for faster returns. Anyone able to confirm that?

oldman45 said:

CHasing this rabbit a little more, and my having bought a lot of guns from dealers, I still do not know exactly what information is given from form 4473 during the call for approval.

Certainly the name, address, DOB, SS and gun type are given but what else? Is there any serial numbers given or say gun model?

I am also being told there is a new form that is done on computer for faster returns. Anyone able to confirm that?

Click to expand...

There is no mention or asking of the seiral number, a simple " Handgun or Long Gun" .

The questions are based on the front of the 4473 ( the part the buyer fills out. ). Name, Race, Date Of Birth, Place of Birth, State of Residence, Us Citizenship. In Florida an approval is good for 30 days..( Think Layaway)

So yes, a call in can be done before the transfer..Remember it's a multi part form, Buyers Info, Dealer Verification of information and the actual transfer which only occurs when the dealer then lists the firearm and signs it as the " Seller"

On the actual 4473, section 21,22 and 23 an all the sub parts that deal with the " call in" states that " This section must be filled in by the dealer BEFORE the transfer of the firearm.

ditrina said:

There is no mention or asking of the seiral number, a simple " Handgun or Long Gun" .

The questions are based on the front of the 4473 ( the part the buyer fills out. ). Name, Race, Date Of Birth, Place of Birth, State of Residence, Us Citizenship. In Florida an approval is good for 30 days..( Think Layaway)

So yes, a call in can be done before the transfer..Remember it's a multi part form, Buyers Info, Dealer Verification of information and the actual transfer which only occurs when the dealer then lists the firearm and signs it as the " Seller"

On the actual 4473, section 21,22 and 23 an all the sub parts that deal with the " call in" states that " This section must be filled in by the dealer BEFORE the transfer of the firearm.

Click to expand...

I have to give all of the information about the gun including the serial number when I call in a background check. But that is a state requirement, not Federal. So the answer depends on what state you are in.

NKJ nut said:

I have to give all of the information about the gun including the serial number when I call in a background check. But that is a state requirement, not Federal. So the answer depends on what state you are in.

Click to expand...

Thanks..
That's what I get for thinking " Locally not Globally" I mentioned Florida in the body of my post, but should have made it more clear.. I was referring to the Florida FDLE call in..

Since a gun S/N is not needed when calling in, and it is actually an "application" for transfer, there should be no reason to not fill out the 4473 and have the dealer call it in prior to actually receiving the firearm to transfer. The S/N is entered when the actual transfer is made, after the waiting period. I am sure there is many different interpretations of this in practice.

"I have to give all of the information about the gun including the serial number when I call in a background check. But that is a state requirement, not Federal. So the answer depends on what state you are in."

"In Florida an approval is good for 30 days."

This gets to the crux of the issue. In this State most dealers will proceed with the background check while the handgun is in transit-assuming that it will arrive in a couple of days. I have to see how long the approval is valid in this State. I have, however run into a dealer who will not commence with the paperwork or background check until the gun is in his possession - ostensibly because he needs the serial number.

This opens a couple of cans of worms. First is the obvious; stretching out the duration of my purchasing exercise. Second is the exposure of having him open the package when I'm not on the premises and discover damage, especially in the case of a used gun. I would assume that the package must be opened and the gun visually inspected for the serial number. Although a rare occurrence, I have seen at least one instance where the number on the gun did not match the number on the box.

The dealer I'm currently working with claims ATFE told him not to proceed with any paperwork without the firearm in hand. Again, this is contrary to how other dealers in the area operate. It's my understanding that the agent did not say that doing so does not comply with law. At this point, I have to wonder if this direction was passed on by the compliance agent based on what he wanted vs what is required. I can find no language in the Wisconsin Statute which prohibits this and my copy of ATF's FAQ's for dealers is old. I also could find no language in the Wisconsin statute defining a shelf life for an approval once it is given.

Regarding my required vs wanted statement; back in the day I attended a seminar for new FFL dealers sponsored jointly by (then) BATF and the Wisconsin DOJ. Representing DOJ was Attorney General Jim Doyle (now former Governor of Wisconsin). This predated the current background check requirement. Doyle gave an answer to a question from the gallery which later proved to be absolutely false. I seem to recall it was similar in nature to this discussion in that it concerned when the waiting period commenced, ie: when the gun was paid for or when it was available for delivery. The ATF reps must have know this but were conspicuous with their deafening silence.

I hope if anybody ventures into this thread who has a current copy of ATFE's FAQ's, they might take a few minutes to research this and comment.



Bruce

It is quite possible that an ATF field agent or rep told him not to process a paper if he did not have the firearm in his possession. One of the problems with the law is it's interpretation, many things are not spelled out, line for line. I am aware of cases where two different field agents have given conflicting advice on how to do things. Some dealers are very concerned about making an error that could lose their license.

"Some dealers are very concerned about making an error that could lose their license."

Roger that!!

I don't doubt that what he was told is what he related to me. I don't want to press the issue or even discuss it with him any further. He has to do what he feels is in his best interests also. As far as agents interpreting the law, it was always my understanding the all LEO's are schooled on what the current interpretation of statute is based on case law and this is pretty basic stuff.

"Since a gun S/N is not needed when calling in, and it is actually an "application" for transfer, there should be no reason to not fill out the 4473 and have the dealer call it in prior to actually receiving the firearm to transfer. "

This is my understanding of the law assuming that delivery of the weapon is expected in a short, reasonable time frame and that, like I said is the modus operandi most small non-stocking dealers in my area use. It is not my intent for the dealer to falsify dates or information contained on these documents but rather to speed up the process as much as legally possible thru economy of efforts. It is not intended to "job the system".

Bruce