Good Video By M. Ayoob "Don't Answer That Door".

[Smoke]

Massad Ayoob "Don't Answer The Door!!!" - YouTube

I’ve seen this discussed on other forums and it seems to cause a lot of debate when it comes up.

I found this video by Massad Ayoob on youtube in which he explains how he deals with a stranger at his door and there’s not much I can add to it except maybe my personal experience.

I am convinced that I stopped an attempted robbery at the front door of my home several years ago by simply not opening the door.

A stranger showed up at my door around 9 pm saying that he wanted to give me a free Denver Post. This was back when I owned a home and I looked through the front window and he had no newspaper in his hands.

He spent 10 minutes trying to get me to open that door; nothing else was going to do. I finally ended the conversation by telling him I was calling the police. I am aware that there are any number of things I could have done better but it was almost 10 years ago and I’ve learned some since then.

I believe it’s prudent not to open the door to a stranger if for no other reason than I don’t want to hear a pitch for meat or a vacuum cleaner or encyclopedias or magazines or an invitation to your church. By not opening the door for anyone I don’t know I automatically am never faced with a situation where I open the door to a criminal.

If it is a criminal I want every advantage I can have. Why put myself in a position where I have to fight them at the door when I can just not open the door and avoid the fight entirely?

ETA When I say don’t answer I don’t mean “ignore” because that might entice a criminal to think you aren’t home and try to kick the door in.

[Old cop]

Well said, we never open our door to a stranger. Who knows how many problems we've avoided by just being street smart.

[gdnagle]

Great advice as usual from Massad Ayoob.

Most doors are not reinforced and can be kicked in. Kids and elderly, need to have this installed into their survival mode never open the door for anyone epically those they don't know, Always get a parent and stay away from doors and windows especially when they are alone.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by gdnagle

Great advice as usual from Massad Ayoob.

Most doors are not reinforced and can be kicked in. Kids and elderly, need to have this installed into their survival mode never open the door for anyone epically those they don't know, Always get a parent and stay away from doors and windows especially when they are alone.

I have a brace on my door that I bought from True Value hardware that reenforces it. You could still kick it down but you aren't going to do it in one shot

[sac-gunslinger]

I invested in one of those steel "screen" doors that secures with a solid dead bolt. I can open the door with access denied to whomever is out there. And the screen pattern on the door precludes anyone from seeing inside especially during the day (we have had door-to-door panhandlers in our area).

[NorthCountry]

I answer the front door from the living room window, which is a half level up from the door. Folks get annoyed when I do that, but I don't care. I really don't have a problem telling the unwanteds to beat it, from the upper window, vs. the front door. A recent home invasion through an accessed front door, in my area, justifies it even more so.

[vigil617]

This thread happens to be eerily coincidental to a situation that occurred two blocks from where I live, three nights ago.

On a Sunday night around 11 p.m., a neighbor of ours was wounded when he answered his door to two older teen-agers who tried to force their way into his home through the front door. We don't know all the details yet, except that he was able to lock the door during the struggle, and they fled in their vehicle. It was found abandoned not far away later.

He is in the hospital with a pistol wound to his abdomen.

The front door of his home had a decorative glass section in its upper half. It had been broken during the event, and by the time I saw it later, had been replaced temporarily with a panel of plywood. I wonder whether the perps had shot through it to wound the homeowner.

Great news is that both were caught within 48 hours -- an 18 year old and a 19 year old who live within five miles of here -- and have been charged with first degree burglary, conspiracy, and assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill inflicting serious injury (the 18-year-old).

We live in a nice rural subdivision of homes ranging from $150,000 to $300,000, but unfortunately there are some marginal areas within easy driving distance, and we've had some problems in the past with vehicle break-ins, etc., but never anything like this.

I think our neighbor might have been targeted because he is partially disabled, and walks with a cane and, occasionally, an oxygen bottle in his strolls in the neighborhood.

I know it sounds trite, but we never thought it would happen here....

[SMSgt]

If a guy at your door at 9pm who won't leave upon request doesn't raise every red flag in the world, you deserve to get robbed. I think a pistol in hand would have convinced him a lot faster.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by SMSgt

If a guy at your door at 9pm who won't leave upon request doesn't raise every red flag in the world, you deserve to get robbed. I think a pistol in hand would have convinced him a lot faster.

To answer specifically the red flags went up as soon as I saw him that's why I didn't open the door. Prior to this incident my habit was to open the door with my gun in hand behind the door. That was ten years ago, I know better now.

Keeping in mind that now I don't have the window and I could have a bazooka in my hand and he'd never know it, it would be .

ETA Keep in mind this is through a closed and barred door
Me: Who is it?

Him: Denver Post I'm handing out free papers.

Me: Not interested please leave.

Him: Anything but "thank you sir, have a nice evening"

Me: If you don't leave right now I'm calling the cops.

And we're in an apartment now with strict noise guidelines so I'm sure we're drawing the attention of other tenants which is not what the criminal wants.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by SMSgt

I think a pistol in hand would have convinced him a lot faster.

Regardless of the fact the every hair on my body stood straight up when I saw this guy.

Regardless of the fact that I am convinced that if I had opened the door I would have had a fight on my hands; what I could actually prove in a court of law was that I had an unarmed guy, standing on my front porch, trying to sell me a newspaper, after 9 PM.

Use of deadly force would have been absolutely unjustified.

If you are going to carry a gun or even own firearms at all it’s in your best interest to be very familiar with your State’s use of force laws. It’s also a good idea to keep an eye on current case law.

There was an incident a few years back in which a former Sheriff’s Deputy working as a private investigator was charged with felony aggravated menacing because he put his hand on the outside of his jacket over his gun to intimidate a person he was trying to collect a debt from.

He was eventually acquitted but he lost his handgun permit and whatever it cost to hire a lawyer during the process.

[Maze 686]

A man named Louis Sweet did not go to work today. He was killed last night in my town. He was shot outside his house by several people wearing ski masks. His dog was shot also. When they were done with him they turned their weapons on the house.

The house was occupied by his girlfriend and several children. Luckily none of them were killed since bullets zip right through most doors. After shooting at the door area, they entered the house. Might of been drug related, robbery, retaliation, or mistaken identification.

It is unknown if he heard something outside or they knocked on the door. However he did die and his kids will grow up without him. Could have been anyone of us if we can't get past opening the door.

[NorthCountry]

Some of you folks will know what this means and why, but that door opening up, and the space between the door frame, is called 'the fatal funnel', for a reason.

[RevTracy]

Originally Posted by Smoke

Use of deadly force would have been absolutely unjustified.

I have to politely disagree with this statement, specifically the word "absolutely." If the potential perp was younger than you, or bigger than you, or you were unable to see if he was armed you are justified to use deadly force. This is known as disparity of force (to quote Mr. Ayoob), meaning that if the perp has an advantage over you and has the ability or opportunity to do you serious harm you can defend yourself.

The incident you cited really has nothing to do with the situation you faced. I do agree that anyone who carries must know the state, county, and city laws governing where they carry. Also, as many have said, situational awareness is extremely important. However, to simply dismiss your right to self-defense as unjustified is going too far the other way. Just my two cents.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by RevTracy

I have to politely disagree with this statement, specifically the word "absolutely." If the potential perp was younger than you, or bigger than you, or you were unable to see if he was armed you are justified to use deadly force. This is known as disparity of force (to quote Mr. Ayoob), meaning that if the perp has an advantage over you and has the ability or opportunity to do you serious harm you can defend yourself.

You are overlooking a key variable and the whole point of this thread, the guy was on the other side of a locked door.

In this specific incident the guy at my door never made an aggressive move, he never displayed a weapon and he never indicated any ill intent. All he really did was try to talk me into opening my door.

The key point I'm trying to make is that I believe the guy was there to rob me and I stopped him cold by simply not opening the door to him.

So even though I believe that he was there to rob me, at that point I would not have been justified in showing him a pistol to move him along.


In the state of Colorado doing so would have been considered unjustified use of deadly force and if the guy chose to press charges I could very well have been arrested for felony menacing.

Colorado Felony Menacing

Colorado Felony Menacing

Menacing is the criminal charge that arises if you "knowingly" place someone "in fear of imminent serious bodily injury." In other words, you try to make someone believe they are going to get seriously hurt right now – not at some future date. In Colorado, the District Attorney must prove that you knew your actions were likely to make the person afraid, even if the person was not actually afraid.

Historically, in Colorado, it was necessary for the prosecutor to prove that you intended to cause fear. Now, however, the prosecutor only needs to prove a "knowing" state of mind, in other words, that you knew that you were likely to cause fear.
Menacing can be charged as a Class Three Misdemeanor (M3), or as a Class Five Felony (F5) in Colorado.

It becomes a felony when it involves the use of a Deadly Weapon. It does not matter if the weapon is real. You can commit menacing with a toy gun, if you handle it in such a way that you make the person believe it is real. You do not have to point the weapon (real or not) at someone to be found guilty, simply holding it "in a manner that causes the other person to fear for his safety" will suffice. You can also be charged with Menacing with a Deadly Weapon even if you do not have a weapon! Simply telling someone that you are armed may result in a Menacing charge.

LexisNexis® Custom Solution: Colorado Revised Statutes Research Tool


18-3-206. Menacing

(1) A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he or she knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury. Menacing is a class 3 misdemeanor, but, it is a class 5 felony if committed:

(a) By the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon; or

(b) By the person representing verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon.

Case law
The phrase "use of a deadly weapon" is broad enough to include the act of holding a weapon in the presence of another in a manner that causes the other person to fear for his safety, even if the weapon is not pointed at the other person. People v. Hines, 780 P.2d 556 (Colo. 1989); People v. District Ct., 17th Jud. Dist., 926 P.2d 567 (Colo. 1996).

Under the felony provision of this section an unloaded firearm is a deadly weapon. People v. McPherson, 200 Colo. 429, 619 P.2d 38 (1980) (decided prior to 1981 amendment to § 18-1-901 (3)(e)).

[cochise]

Heck Smoke, move to Florida you can shoot people here and get away with it even if you blocks from home.
;-)

[Kanewpadle]

I open my front door every time. Helps to have a good strong security screen door that opens outward.

[RevTracy]

Originally Posted by Smoke

You are overlooking a key variable and the whole point of this thread, the guy was on the other side of a locked door.

In this specific incident the guy at my door never made an aggressive move, he never displayed a weapon and he never indicated any ill intent. All he really did was try to talk me into opening my door.

The key point I'm trying to make is that I believe the guy was there to rob me and I stopped him cold by simply not opening the door to him.

So even though I believe that he was there to rob me, at that point I would not have been justified in showing him a pistol to move him along.


In the state of Colorado doing so would have been considered unjustified use of deadly force and if the guy chose to press charges I could very well have been arrested for felony menacing.

One thing you're missing in quoting these statutes is this: you are in your home, on your property...NOT in public. It is not considered "menacing" to simply have a weapon in your hand in your own home. Now, if you point that weapon at an unarmed person (without cause), or follow that person and go onto public property you could be sited for menacing.

My point is to answer the door armed with a weapon is not illegal.

Also, I did not say that what you did was wrong, nor did I criticize what you did. Quite the opposite...I think the best way to handle that situation is to do what you did - not open the door.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by RevTracy

One thing you're missing in quoting these statutes is this: you are in your home, on your property...NOT in public. It is not considered "menacing" to simply have a weapon in your hand in your own home. Now, if you point that weapon at an unarmed person (without cause), or follow that person and go onto public property you could be sited for menacing.

I'm not sure about that. Colorado does not have Castle Doctrine we have make my day and a key compontent of that is they must have entered your home illegally, which this guy didn't.

18-1-704.5 Use Of Deadly Physical Force Against An Intruder ("Make My Day Law")
1. The general assembly hereby recognizes that the citizens of Colorado have a
right to expect absolute
safety within their own homes.
2. Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is
justified in using any
degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person
when that other person has
made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable
belief that such other
person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is
committing or intends
to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry,
and when the occupant
reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter
how slight, against any
occupant.
3. Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical
force, in accordance with
the provisions or subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from criminal
prosecution for the use of
such force.
4. Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical
force, in accordance with
the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from any civil
liability for injuries or death
resulting from the use of such force.

18-1-704 Use Of Physical Force In Defense Of A Person
1. Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person is justified
in using physical force
upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person in order to defend
himself or a third person
from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical
force by that other
person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be
necessary for that purpose.
2. Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser
degree of force is
inadequate and:
(a.) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he
or another person is in
imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury; or
(b.) The other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical
force against an
occupant of a dwelling or business establishment while committing or
attempting to commit
burglary as defined in sections 18-4-202 to 18-4-204; or
(c.) The other person is committing or reasonably appears about to commit
kidnapping as defined
in section 18-3-301 or 18-3-302, robbery as defined in section 18-4-301 or
18-4-302, sexual
assault as set forth in section 18-3-402 or 18-3-403 as it existed prior to
July 1, 2000, or assault as
defined in sections 18-3-202 or 18-3-203.
3. Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (1) of this section, a person is not
justified in using
physical force if:
(a.) With intent to cause bodily injury or death to another person, he
provokes the use of unlawful
physical force by that other person; or
(b.) He is the initial aggressor, except that his use of physical force upon
another person under the
circumstances is justifiable if he withdraws from the encounter and
effectively communicates to
the other person his intent to do so, but the latter nevertheless continues or
threatens the use of
unlawful physical force; or
(c.) The physical force involved is the product of a combat by agreement
not specifically
authorized by law.

There's no law against holding a gun in your hand but I don't think that's what the other poster was suggesting.

I think what was being suggested was that I make it known that I was armed to move the other guy along which would absolutely fit the legal definition of menacing

You may only use deadly force to defend your premises if you believe the person your defending against is about to commit arson

[finesse_r]

Originally Posted by Smoke

I'm not sure about that. Colorado does not have Castle Doctrine we have make my day and a key compontent of that is they must have entered your home illegally, which this guy didn't.

There's no law against holding a gun in your hand but I don't think that's what the other poster was suggesting.

I think what was being suggested was that I make it known that I was armed to move the other guy along which would absolutely fit the legal definition of menacing

You may only use deadly force to defend your premises if you believe the person your defending against is about to commit arson

If a stranger knocked at my door late at night. I would rack a shell into the chamber on my 12 gage pump while standing near the door. Then without opening the door I would ask who it is and what they want. After hearing that Mossberg rack one home, I don't think there would be too much of a problem from anyone even halfway sane.

[RevTracy]

Originally Posted by Smoke

I'm not sure about that. Colorado does not have Castle Doctrine we have make my day and a key compontent of that is they must have entered your home illegally, which this guy didn't.





There's no law against holding a gun in your hand but I don't think that's what the other poster was suggesting.

I think what was being suggested was that I make it known that I was armed to move the other guy along which would absolutely fit the legal definition of menacing

You may only use deadly force to defend your premises if you believe the person your defending against is about to commit arson

I'm not going to argue semantics. In my home I don't answer the door, but I always carry. It has been my experience (yes I have actual experience) that when a perp sees a weapon, pointed at them or not, they tend to leave rather quickly. In reality, if someone with ill intent did see a resident with a gun I doubt very much if they would call the police.

Bottom line: if someone where to cause a problem on my property, at my front door, or inside my residence I would protect myself and my family accordingly.

[hangnoose]

I installed window tinting in my house primarily to keep out sun & provide privacy. 1 big advantage of the one way type is I can look out the window and see someone at the door very well & they have no idea I'm there. Also I don't have to get dressed to walk around the house.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by RevTracy

I'm not going to argue semantics. In my home I don't answer the door, but I always carry. It has been my experience (yes I have actual experience) that when a perp sees a weapon, pointed at them or not, they tend to leave rather quickly. In reality, if someone with ill intent did see a resident with a gun I doubt very much if they would call the police.

Bottom line: if someone where to cause a problem on my property, at my front door, or inside my residence I would protect myself and my family accordingly.

I think basically we agree that we're better off not opening the door and that was my main point.

In the situation I am in now I don't open the door but I do have to answer it or I’m never going to know who is on the other side (no windows).

[arjay]

A peephole is easy to install,all you need is a drill.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by finesse_r

If a stranger knocked at my door late at night. I would rack a shell into the chamber on my 12 gage pump while standing near the door. Then without opening the door I would ask who it is and what they want. After hearing that Mossberg rack one home, I don't think there would be too much of a problem from anyone even halfway sane.

You do know that if you ever do that and the stranger is a cop it's not going to end well for you right?

For that matter if it's the real deal and you short stroke that shotgun and get a feed jam at the worst possible moment it isn't going to end well either

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by arjay

A peephole is easy to install,all you need is a drill.

I have a peephole but there have been reports of home invaders waiting till the see your shadow in the peep then kicking in the door on you.

As show in the video I stand back from the door and ask who it is, then use the peep hole to verify if it’s someone I know.

If It’s anything else I ask them to leave or offer to call the police.

And I am armed when I do it

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by Smoke

I have a peephole but there have been reports of home invaders waiting till the see your shadow in the peep then kicking in the door on you.

As show in the video I stand back from the door and ask who it is, then use the peep hole to verify if it’s someone I know.

If It’s anything else I ask them to leave or offer to call the police.

And I am armed when I do it

If you had good deadbolts, you wouldn't have that problem.

And wouldn't stand in front of or behind the door. Stand to one side.

[TexasArmed]

Originally Posted by Smoke;137452373

If it [I

is[/I] a criminal I want every advantage I can have. Why put myself in a position where I have to fight them at the door when I can just not open the door and avoid the fight entirely?

ETA When I say don’t answer I don’t mean “ignore” because that might entice a criminal to think you aren’t home and try to kick the door in.

I agree, I want every advantage, and I have had that 3:00 am door knock from a criminal wanted for armed robbery, armed kidnapping and armed sexual assault. I believe had
I opened the door he would have grabbed for my gun. Why
give a criminal a fair chance? But I also think even conversing with him gives him information he does not deserve or need. In my door knocker's case he got released that same day but rearrested a week later.

Nobody at 9:00 pm or 3:00 am is getting thru my dead bolted door intact. Its too bad if he thinks nobody is home because I don't answer. Whether he is armed or not, is not my concern because if he decides to kick the door in, he is a threat to me, and I will not retreat, because my daughter
would be sleeping in the next room. He has only one option,
that is to leave. He does not have an option to kick my door in. Police or fireman can identify themselves. But if I am
going to have to stop a home invader it will not be after
he gets inside my living room where I sleep armed with
three handguns. There are no safe rooms in my small
living quarters. One way in, one way out.

Even a strong door can be kicked in within a few minutes and if a determined bad guy really wants in, the fact you are home
is not going to deter him, or if he is so high on drugs he don't
care. In a small space answering him gives him more information about you which he is not entitled to have.

[TexasArmed]

Originally Posted by Smoke

I have a peephole but there have been reports of home invaders waiting till the see your shadow in the peep then kicking in the door on you.

As show in the video I stand back from the door and ask who it is, then use the peep hole to verify if it’s someone I know.

If It’s anything else I ask them to leave or offer to call the police.

And I am armed when I do it

You can get around the peep hole problem by installing a cheap $200 video surveillance of the area outside the door.
If it is police or fireman they need to identify themselves. I do not own a shotgun. Why give the bad guy any information.
Suppose your standing to one side of the door what if he
sprays the whole area with an AK-47?

Better to just wait, especially during the night hours. I only open my door in the daytime. I am not saying a shotgun is'
not a good home defense weapon, but I prefer my Smith and Wesson 625-5 Colt 45 and my CA Bulldog 44 Special.

[vaeevictiss]

This thread kinda makes me want to finally get these cctv cameras I got for free a while back hooked up. I have 4 of them and the one on my porch facing the door would be the first one up.

On that note... I'm curious on the legality of something.

Say I get a knock on the door late at night, and I see someone standing there with a gun drawn waiting. I can safely assume that a breech of the door or at least a violent attack is imminent...

Can I legally shoot him through the door?

Sent from my Galaxy S4

[hangnoose]

They make large diameter ones now app1 1/2" that you can see a much wider field of view, and from across the room. as for guns, they are for shooting, not menacing. I found out the hard way when young. I heard someone sneaking around the perimeter of my house app 12 am, I snuck up behind him and racked the action on the 12 ga pump, It was a cop! luckily his partner didn't drop me as he was on the other side of the house. they were looking for a bank robber that fit my description.

[shouldazagged]

Originally Posted by vaeevictiss

Say I get a knock on the door late at night, and I see someone standing there with a gun drawn waiting. I can safely assume that a breech of the door or at least a violent attack is imminent...

Can I legally shoot him through the door?

I doubt that a police officer would position himself that way, or fail to identify himself clearly, but still...

I think the key words there are "safely assume". Can you?

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by Kanewpadle

If you had good deadbolts, you wouldn't have that problem.

And wouldn't stand in front of or behind the door. Stand to one side.

I'm in a rental I don't get to alter or change the locks.

I use a door brace under the handle but that won't stop the thief from kicking in the hinges.

I am aware the hinge side of the door can be hardened as well but again I am in a rental

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by shouldazagged

I think the key words there are "safely assume". Can you?

Two words that should never be in the same sentence

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by Smoke

I'm in a rental I don't get to alter or change the locks.

I use a door brace under the handle but that won't stop the thief from kicking in the hinges.

I am aware the hinge side of the door can be hardened as well but again I am in a rental

Kicking in a door on the hinge side is not as easy as you think. Replace the screws with longer wood screws.

I spent years in rentals. There's always a way.

[TexasArmed]

Originally Posted by vaeevictiss

This thread kinda makes me want to finally get these cctv cameras I got for free a while back hooked up. I have 4 of them and the one on my porch facing the door would be the first one up.

On that note... I'm curious on the legality of something.

Say I get a knock on the door late at night, and I see someone standing there with a gun drawn waiting. I can safely assume that a breech of the door or at least a violent attack is imminent...

Can I legally shoot him through the door?

Sent from my Galaxy S4

Know your state laws on deadly force. Generally you cannot shoot someone for knocking. I would shoot him through the door if he is breaking it down. Not for knocking. But then I won't answer the door either. It would be quite foolish to
answer the door if you could see that he was armed I think.
Depending on what state you are in, you might even have to
retreat to the last cubby hole in your house to hide in.

My apartment does not come with such. So I would not
shoot through a dead bolted door unless he was breaking it down, whether I saw a gun or not, but if he is taking the door down he will go down with the door. People who want to
live a long life don't kick doors in in Texas.

[robertrwalsh]

My wife once had a very persistent, would not go away door to door pusher of something or other. She wisely did not open the security screen door. When the guy wouldn't leave she called to me in my office. I opened the guns safe, removed a cut-down (but legal) 12 gauge pump, walked to the front door and said "Go away, we don't want any." I was just carrying the shotgun, not waving it. He left promptly. Subtlety is wasted on some people.

[Warren Sear]

Originally Posted by cochise

Heck Smoke, move to Florida you can shoot people here and get away with it even if you blocks from home.
;-)

Bull Squeezin's.