Eh. Another old thread I'd missed. Keep your M4, Sig 556, or whatever loaded with M955 (not M855) black tip AP ammo if you can get it. It used to only show up on the SAW belts, but is more common. It isn't sold commercially, at all, to my knowledge. Goes right through Level III rifle plates, and is hard for even many level IV plates to stop. It's the real reason for the prevalence of Level IV+ multi hit plates these days among those... who have reason to purchase such. Lots of PDs, and most BGs, don't have the budget for that.

Failing that, you want a big game rifle loaded with solids, an M1 with M2AP (black tip) OR use M193 rounds. Yes, don't use M855, the older M193 is better at going through some rifle plates, particularly low bid ones.

No rifle plates or areas without plates, and helmets, are only going to be Level IIIA armor max, proof against 9mm SMG velocity rounds and possibly the M1 carbine (as well as all shotgun projectiles), but rifle bullets are going right through.

You'll also want to keep hearing protection and a gas mask handy and make sure that you can shoot with your mask on. Gas isn't fun stuff, nor are flash bangs, but if whoever is hitting you relies on them too much, they can get sloppy.

Doors can be reinforced so that a battering ram isn't going to take them down easily.

If you don't have a decent AP option, aim for the pelvis and or the head, though there might be varying amounts of armor protection even there.

It's a good idea to have armor of your own handy with rifle plates, the best you can afford, at least an Izzy vest. Unless you're getting hit by real professionals, it is quite problematic to dig one person who's well armed and armored out. If you've got a whole family... Eh. They'll get you eventually, but it won't be pretty.

Shrug.

Sounds like you're endorsing shooting LEO's. Not cool; rather disturbing in fact.

If you're not doing anything unlawful, why SHOULD you think it's LEOs kicking down your door without warning?

If I'm NOT a criminal, do I have to fear LEOs breaking down my door or not?

If the answer is "no", then I'm just shooting home invaders. If the answer is "yes", then there's a serious problem with law enforcement.

Pick one.

What you fail to realize, always, is that humans can make mistakes. And LEO's are not the only humans who make mistakes. Yes, LEO's have, unfortunately, entered the wrong homes. However, they don't enter...ever...with the intention of randomly shooting people they encounter.

I have never heard of a scenario in which criminals used flash bangs, gas, and tactical armor whilst engaging in any home invasion. Thus one can presume that if you are involved in an incident where flash bangs and gas are deployed against you it is, indeed, the police who are outside your door..and soon to be inside. I strongly suggest you cooperate. Kill a LEO in that instance and I guarantee you'll be dead.

You referenced the incident in Berwyn Heights, Maryland, where the local sheriff's office entered a home. Two dogs were killed then. Why that outrage? The deputies felt threatened and just like what the keyboard ninjas here aver they would do, they shot the dogs. 'Course, in your mind, only non-LEO's are without accountablility for their actions.

BTW, in the course of my LE career, and before and after, I have encountered many canines. Never shot any of them. Frankly, the thought of busting a cap in Old Yeller makes me sick.

"Mistakes" have consequences. I've got enough documented death threats from White supremacists that I don't have the luxury of assuming that anybody who kicks in my door is the police, regardless of what they say or wear. The consequences of that sort of "mistake" by police is me ending up dead, but probably not JUST me.

When human life is at stake, you have a higher standard of care. That standard doesn't appear to be met, or even striven for in too many of these cases.

Given some of the incidents, I know about, I wouldn't be so confident, but that's beside the point. I have an expectation of being secure in my person and property if I'm not breaking the law. Your intentions when you kick down the wrong door only determine WHICH crime and civil tort you commit, not whether you've committed one.

Can you quote ANYBODY here who has claimed the right to forcibly enter somebody ELSE'S property without their permission and shoot their dogs... nevermind forcing the owners at gunpoint to then lie in the blood of the dead dogs? Those cops THEMSELVES created whatever "threat" existed in that home. I don't know about where you live, but in Ohio, I can't start beating a total stranger without provocation, then shoot him in "self-defense" when he gets the upper hand while defending himself. Nobody's going to want to hear that I made a "mistake" and thought he was somebody else.

No, just how to engage targets wearing armor. The OP posits a gang impersonating LEOs, so presumably they'd equip themselves in a vaguely similar manner. (Anyone can buy armor, it isn't restricted by law in 49 of 50 states as to sale, and even the best stuff is only restricted by company policies related to sales.)

Gas - either OC or CS/CN isn't that hard to obtain either.

Whether someone shoots or doesn't shoot at people breaking the doors isn't my choice, it is theirs. But if someone is going to do something, might as well do it right.

Concealable armor pops up on homebreakers with... not regularity per se, but it happens often enough to make the news if you look for it and have a professional interest in such matters. Gas and raid jackets aren't unknown in such matters, but mainly used if you're robbing drug dealers. Such took place in Detroit during my college days, though I forget the details and the matter was never entirely resolved to whether it was Detroit PD imposters robbing dealers... or the Detroit PD robbing them. That would have been the mid 90s.

Gas has been used in foreign locales to smoke out the homeowners/homesteader by criminals. It's also been used by individuals to make other people suffer - though a felony in most states to mess around with. I personally know people who've emptied OC cannisters into the vents of other people's homes in disputes related to one thing or another. I don't condone such, but the effect isn't much different in some cases than having a proper gas cannister go off.

Raid jackets that say "Police" aren't hard to come by either come to think of it... Shrug. I don't endorse anyone doing anything and have no particular grudge against police, Federales, what not. But... if people are going to mull something over, they might as well cover all the angles.

Same as if someone tells me that the aliens steal their blood at night and they want to lay traps. I'd happily discuss how to rig a bear trap or what not. Not that I necessarily endorse or believe in their theory, but eh, if you're going to go about doing something, at least take the time to do it properly.

I've got my PMC get up sitting in the closet now - tac armor w/rifle plates, M4, knee pads, goggles, tac gloves, there's a baclava in there somewhere. I even have the PVS-14 to play ninja with and there's a couple OC grenades that I have left. If I can amass certain things out of boredom without even trying, I have to assume that someone dedicated to pursuing a criminal enterprise wouldn't have much trouble.

I must admit to not having read all the replies.

In my neighborhood, I believe if the bonafide area LEO wanted to talk to me about anything, they'd call (which they've done once when someone out of the blue was looking for my ex and didnt have contact info for her) or e-mail me, or just stop by and talk.. I'd likely recognise a number of them if them came over. They could at least call to be sure I had coffee on.

I seriously doubt if any "pro" thugs would be operating in the area, in such a manner. Word would get around quickly if so. In any event, even if it were to happen, I'm about the least likely looking place they'd be wanting to attempt to rob.

Home invasions of any sort in this state make statewide news. They are so rare, and usually done by half-wits or wanne-be punk kids on the rare occasions they do happen. Most realise that the majority of folks have guns, and any sort of residential burglary or invasion is likely to not go well.

Regretfully this does happen and regardless of the Supreme Court's ruling it would still happen. Let's face it, only two types of people will yell they are "police" as they break in to your home, one is the real police and the other--well let's just say they wouldn't care what the Supreme Court decided anymore than they care that it is against the law to conduct home invasion robberies.

I propose that if you seriously concern yourself that such may happen that you should install a couple of cameras in the front of your house and a proximity alarm that rings when someone approaches. Cost is less than most pistols worth owning and it will be of more assistance than any court ruling.

If they are not the police, call 911 and go to your COVER position. TELL THEM, loudly, that you have called the police (don't rely on a cell phone--you want a wired phone at your COVER position); if your line is cut it's a good indication that they aren't police--but while police can, and frequently do, jam cell phones during a raid, they don't normally cut phone wires.

If it is the real police, open the door before they hit it. Keep your gun reasonably close (in case you err'd) but not in your hands, which you should show to the police as being empty--keep one foot behind the door to shut it if you can.
If you discover you made a mistake, slam the door, retrieve your defensive weapon, run for COVER, dial 911, and get ready... TELL THEM that you don't believe they are the police and until your call to 911 goes through you will consider them armed criminals and that they should either wait for backup or leave.

This takes planning and practice on your part. Don't send your wife or child to the door, just in case, but send them to your COVER spot. Hopefully those idiots that show all the SWAT entries won't put this on the TV to educate the bad guys.

I live in layers,even though i live in the country i still live in layers.I start with flood lights,an outside dog(german shepard).On both porches i have night vision camera's and have spiked plants under every window.

Starting on the inside i have a weiner dog that barks at anything,more night vision camera's,baby monitors in all the kids rooms by the windows,At each door i have first alert alarms on the door molds and they stay active unless i deactivate them to go out side.I have replaced all the kids doors with solid wood doors.

At night i keep my bedroom locked and the safe open.i keep one handgun in a holster on my shotgun shell belt,along with my shotgun.From my tv in my bedroom i can see anything that moves inside and out,day or night.

Heck when i used to live down in Huntington WV i even went so far as to tie fishing line to 2 bags of empty soda cans,so when the line was hit the bags of cans would fall and hit the porch and make a God awful noice.

I would only hope that i would never get my home invaded by Police or thugs,but if the time comes i'll be ready as will my family.

Two things have been said here that I agree with 100% and that I find disgusting.

1. Is the idea by a few on here that we should give LEO's leeway in this issue. No. Not gonna happen. This is the price you pay for piss poor performance and preparation. You bust the wrong door. Sorry.

2. The idea that LEO's can use no knocl warrants still to this day disgusts me. The first comments about this are right on. This is not a police state. Although with the stories I can tell now about a few incidents right here in my back yard call that fact into question.

The thing that also disturbs me here is that we ignored the idea of it being a legal warrant or even clean cops. With the current level of PMC type groups contracting law enforcement now we have too many people who shouldn't be allowed to bea greeter at walmart much less a cop.

Whatever happened to cops being concerned over the citizens they protect? That used to be their first concern. Unfortunately that is not the case for a large portion of them now. Not all and maybe not most. But too many.

Pray tell, just what are:


Be safe.

Private Military Contractors.

They are being used in certain areas as law enforcement in the states. Several counties go in together and get deputies from them...

I will go out on a limb and say that's a really. really bad idea.

Be safe.

Really? Where? Do they maybe have prior LEO experience? I have never heard of PMC's(?) being hired as LEO's stateside. I am aware of retired LEO's being hired by various private contractors for work overseas as LEO trainers. Pray tell, where are they stateside so I can avoid the areas.

I don't care if it's Blackwater, Inc. or the Ugly Stump, Missouri PD that kicks in my front door when they shouldn't. One way or the other, whichever does it, they're going to pay as heavy a price as I (or my survivors) can extract from them, both as individuals and as an organization. I consider it a strict liability offense and you shouldn't expect any understanding or mercy from me when we go to court. From then on, it's no quarter asked, no quarter given.

Are you aware of private contractors kicking in doors here in the states? That was the primary point of my comment. I am unaware of this happening here. I realize just because I don't know about it does not mean that it has not happened. I think the media would have a field day if this were true. I understand you feel if you believe you have done nothing wrong and the cops come to your house you are going to do what, sue them? Absolutely, take them and their agency to court.

My point was that I don't know and don't CARE. Police, Blackwater, the Vienna Boys Choir, it's all the same to me.

I don't know if private military contractors are doing this sort of thing domestically. I kind of doubt it, but have no direct information and never even considered the matter before seeing the post that claimed it.

Kick in my door and there will be a reckoning, and one pursued without forgiveness or compassion regardless of who the perpetrators are.

Guys- Sorry haven't been back to this thread.

In my area they are hiring from pools to more than one county at a time. For instance my county plus 3 others share deputies hired from a central location. Same system as nurses for instance these days. Not enough decent law enforcement.

If you remember this isn't news. Even Glenn Beck stumbled upon this a year ago or so in the upper midwest somewhere. COunties and poorer areas are having to do "creative things" to cover their areas. The TSA does this also. Port Security as well.

Quite frankly with the current level of law enforcement here I would rather have a corp with a customer service dept myself...

The best way to survive this scenario is to vigorously oppose any elected officials who allow these to take place.

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"Give me Liberty..."

When I was a cop, we wore uniforms and when we did search warrants we had to have the unirform guys go in first. Today for some reason cops think they have to wear military combat gear to write a parking ticket....The black urban storm trooper uniform, complete with German style ballistic helmets, combat boots, etc.....we are no longer searching homes, we are invading them.......then when one of us gets shot we are up in arms about criminals....yet when we goof and hit the wrong house, terrorize its occupants we rarely say we are damn lucky to not get a shot gun blast to face. I have radied tons of places...I have even kicked in a door or two....but I always did it in a uniform Ray Charles would recognize as a police uniform... I did not look like a crazed storm trooper or Darth Vaders brother in law. Sorry to you active guys, I cant side with your choice of urban combat wear. and while Im at it, if your going to wear ridiculous shorts and sneakers, please dont expose your underwear which is longer than your shorts. I yearn for the day when we argued with our bosses to just let us wear Rebok shoes instead of Patten leather.....but we wore uniform pants and real police shirts with real badges, not tee shirts and cargo pants.....we actually looked like cops, not refugees from a second hand store in combat zone. So to answer the question when cops wear real uniforms we wont have to hide our guns when the crazed druggies pull off a home invasion robbery, unless they start wearing fake uniforms.

AMEN!!!!

All of this is why I quit subscribing to SWAT and watching so many of the TV shows. It just encourages this type of behavior.

FAIR WARNING: If you are the POLICE, have your dispatcher call this residence and we will gladly come to the door unarmed, with our hands in plain sight. If you do not call before entering this residence, we can't be responsible for the outcome -- win, lose or draw.

"Make it too tough for the enemy to get in, and you won't be able to get out." Murphy's Laws of War, #40.

Only been 6 years.

Anyway. That exactly how no knock warrants work! In fact the dispatcher should also remind the occupants to flush away any drugs, shred any paperwork and hide firearms. Another good idea is to let the occupants know which side the cops are coming from to make sure they're ready to fire

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Ugly Stump only has one officer . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I was surprised to see it too, but I agree with his point. It doesn't matter to me if drugs get flushed away. I couldn't care less. The drugs are not killing ME. A no-knock entry at my residence very likely could.

[QUOTE=AimHigher;139236033]FAIR WARNING: If you are the POLICE, have your dispatcher call this residence and we will gladly come to the door unarmed, with our hands in plain sight. If you do not call before entering this residence, we can't be responsible for the outcome -- win, lose or draw.[/QUOTE

(Revised Notice)
FAIR WARNING:: Due to the very real potential for police impersonators, if you are the POLICE, have your dispatcher call this residence and we will gladly come to the door unarmed, with our hands in plain sight. If you do not call before entering this residence, we can't be responsible for the outcome -- win, lose or draw.

Add to above, the wearing of face coverings (ski masks) and bearded officers. Looks like a scene from a bad movie. Seems as if some departments allow their officers to emulate the appearance of special operators of the US special forces. It's like a bunch of grown-up kids playing army.

I pray a mistake like that never happens, but it does and people should hang for it.

The less interaction with police, the better.

Notwithstanding the fact that you would be ignored, when and how do you plan to issue this warning in anticipation of a no knock warrant? Call the PD once a week, big sign in your front yard, monthly classified ad in the personals section of the paper? With a regular warrant, they knock and announce and you don't answer, your door is coming in. With a no knock, you don't get the chance to save your jamb . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Very lengthy thread. LEOs don't "knock down doors" in our county, they're smarter than that. If someone did try to forcibly enter our homes, they get what they deserve and our Sheriff supports us within limits.

Never have and "dont" are two different things. They have not because there has been no reason to. Have some armed drug dealing psychopath and they won't be knocking. That's the whole point. Surprise!!

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You don't and you won't, you are dead !
First mistake especially if you own your own home (which in that case you have no real excuse) was letting them get inside because you where to whatever to properly secure your door jams, windows etc.

Having a gun in the house should not even be your first consideration and perhaps not even in the top five considerations. Just another tool to protection and it should be the last resort.

Living in an apt. is another story because you are limited on what you are allowed to do and if you ask the landlord/lady permission you may spark suspicion towards you.

I'm in that position and my shack is virtually indefensible and I do live around and among lower income neighborhood.
Best alarm system is a dog and it doesn't even have to be viscous or big for that matter, just a barker and small dogs are great barkers and they will hear things way before they ever get to your door. Problem is I no longer have the energy to go through the stages of training.

So I'm getting me a cheap motion sensor alarm, just something to hopefully scare them away and if I'm sleeping awake me.
It's better than nothing.
But I'll tell you this right now, if I own this place you better believe I'd have it secure.

This thread is over 6 years old. And in 2016 they are now hitting rural America with these home invasions, once unheard out that way and where I'm at they are doing them with more than one person in most cases now.

They are even hitting the seniors in broad day light so it's no longer even just a night thing and it's getting more and more frequent as we have all read about.

If you are young family have a plan, the Mrs. runs the phone to 911 and keeps the children quiet, you are running the artillery but what ever you do be quiet, let them come to you. Do not announce anything, do not turn on any lights and do not go and investigate, let the cops handle it. You stay put ready for battle.

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Mulebuk Sam and the Governor

Your sarcasm receiver may need re-calibration or press reset button on back of unit.

Be that as it may, such a warning placard may conceivably carry some weight in a potential court proceeding??

It can be the magistrate who is to blame for approving a no knock warrant without thoroughly reviewing the affidavit supporting the search warrant and for not asking appropriate questions as to the description and location of premises to be searched (how it was verified by Affiant) and/or questioning the affiant as to the actual need for a no knock. Some terrible errors and negligence have occurred over the years.

A: Completely serious. There are forum members who may now be sending you a PM to obtain a bulk rate on signs.

B: Not a chance . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

A. You are, I was not. B. Wrong. C. Might I suggest decaf?

Duly noted . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Slow Sunday huh? Dragging up a 6 year old thread to argue about something that isn't going to happen?

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Freedom isn't free.

I got a butt on the grill and hashbrown casserole in the oven, and Darlington is a night race . . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

This very thing happened recently to a young couple with a new born that we attend church with........

Wrong house, no knock warrant.....Department cover-up and law suit pending...

Just so happened the husband was in the shower at the time and didn't get to his firearm.

The couple was detained in their own home for over an hour, with their child screaming
it's lit'l head off before the Task Force realized they had screwed up big time from out dated and or erroneous intel.

Needless to say their high powered attorney will extract the full limit of the city's insurers liability coverage.



*
I have been on no knock warrant raids and they are not necessary except in extreme instances.

I don't like em and would not do that kind of service now at all.



.

How would you handle this scenario?

I don't rightly know....and don't want to think to awful hard about it.
It would be a no win kinda deal all the way around.


.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

My parents have lived in the same house for 27 years, smaller town of about 20,000. They've been hit twice with no knocks. First was a kid busted with a joint who pointed to my parents house when pressed on where he got it (he happened to be the mayors kid who didn't like my brother). During the raid my other brother was kept face down on his bed with a shotgun to his head for the entire raid. Second time was a wrong address, said the perp lived there previously (which couldn't have happened because my parents lived there years before he was born)...

Have they started the libel campaign against the victims yet? That seems to be SOP.

1. No settlement.
2. No mercy.
3. No non-disclosure agreements.

The perpetrators need to be treated in civil court and the court of public opinion the way the Japanese holed up in Ft. Drum in Manila Bay were treated.

NO SURVIVORS.

Civil court.

As the Brits say, "put the boot in".

Example ? ? ?

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Where I spend nearly half my time there aren't anything except no knock warrants. Often no one complains, because they don't survive the visit.

I'm grateful that here USA,(so far) it's usually a mistake, and rare.

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Halfway and one more step

• Kathryn Johnston
• Akai Gurley
• Michael Pleasance
• Carolina Obrycka

There are others.

If you check out local online comment sections, there are often apparently organized libel campaigns.

It's usually the victim's "fault" in some way or another.

Of course as in the case of the Mayor of Berwyn Heights, MD, there are frequently "high fiveing" sessions after the fact.

In most of the cases I've seen, the INNOCENT victims are treated like garbage, as in the case of the Hmong family who's home was raided and left uninhabitable with CS gas. A bucket of cleaning supplies was left on their front doorstep. I imagine somebody thought that was "funny".

The chances of law enforcement serving an unannouced warrant on my property for any cause, mistaken or otherwise, is one helluva long shot. I don' think I'll get wrapped around the axle worrying about it. Anyone shows up at our place is going to have to defeat an early warning system before they gain entry.

He asked, I answered.