I've read a lot of reports by people doing tests and studies on caliber effectiveness. I don't put a lot of stock in ballistic gelatin tests as far as simulating what a round does to a human body. I think the only plus side to these type of tests is the ability to choose which loads and bullet types to compare. Street results are obviously more accurate in telling us what works in the street than what a lab test could determine. However street result testing is limited to the types of rounds most often used rather than what's available as well as being often distorted by the style of killing. Of course a .40 caliber bullet being bigger and propelled by more power will do more damage than a 9mm being a smaller bullet with less power behind it. It's like comparing a 240lb man swinging a 16lb sledge hammer to a 180lb man swinging a 12lb sledge. That part's a no brainer. Yes the 40 is a bigger, badder bullet. Quickness and accuracy of follow up shots determined by recoil is another story but that's not what I'm getting at. I fully agree that one shot from a 40 has a better chance of ending the fight than one shot from a 9mm. What I question is the commonly perceived conception of ineffectiveness of the 9mm due to extenuating street circumstances. Victims of gang killings will usually have several rounds of 9mm in the body. That doesn't mean it took that many shots to end it. There's often more than one shooter and even if the victim dies instantly from the first shot, several more are apt to hit the body as he's falling to the ground which makes it pretty hard to determine how many of those shots were actually needed. The last time I was checking in at the range a pimped out car pulls up with dark tinted windows, a door opens and I can see 4 or 5 guys in the car wearing gang colors. One guy dressed like a normal person jumped out, ran in, bought 2 boxes of the cheapest 9mm ammo they had, jumped back in the car and they sped off. With a large number of 9mm killings being gang related I have to wonder if the majority of these are done with target ammo or even some of the low budget hollowpoints. Again I'm not disputing the single shot effectiveness advantage of the .40 caliber over the 9mm. But with the higher end ammo is the 9mm really as ineffective as commonly perceived? I'm quite confident that an attacker charging me, thinking I couldn't quickly put him down with my 9 would be making a fatal mistake. So granted the 9mm doesn't have the stopping power of the larger calibers but is it really as bad as some say?

No, modern 9mm JHP is not a "poor" round, or poor choice. Especially from short barreled concealed carry type pistols.

I use 127 grain 9mm +P+ in my 3913 during warm weather, and 147 grain in cold weather. Both are Winchester Ranger brand ammo, with good track records with law enforcement agencies.

I'd advise you to always go with the handgun that fits your hand, in a caliber you can control and shoot well. If that happens to be a 9mm, then you are well armed.

The only place 9mm is not deadly is on the internet. Regards 18DAI.

None of the people I have killed with a 9mm have come back to life, to my knowldge. And some were with green tipped FMJ Rounds.

I live by this when it comes to firearms:
Rule 303

I was already to jump in debunk the internet myth that the 9mm is somehow inferior to other calibers, but then I read 18DAI's post and have decided he covered things nicely. Especially the quote above.

The caliber issue is never really about the caliber, but always about the shooters skill and ability. A .22LR in your targets left eye socket beats a .500S&W that grazes his butt cheek. A 9mm in any vital organ will get the job done just fine.

I can carry anything I want and I carry the 9mm on duty and I trust the caliber, my chosen load, my weapon, and my ability to put rounds on target.

Besides, it's been killing people daily for a century or so and with modern ammo development it's only gotten better.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

A number of major law enforcement agencies either continue to use the 9mm (New York and Chicago) or have changed from the .40 S&W to the 9mm (Topeka PD and Indiana State Police). Modern 9mm ammunition is as effective as ammunition in other calibers appropriate for defensive carry. Undoubtedly, someone will pipe up and comment that the 9mm is not/cannot be as powerful and effective as the .44 Magnum, but it does have to be to be used for defensive purposes against humans.
As a retired LEO, I can carry anything I can qualify with, and I choose to carry a 9mm, either in a S&W auto(CS9/3913) or a S&W revolver (940 or custom 637). The load I prefer is the Speer GD 124+P, the same one NYPD issues.

I may rile a few feathers here but I have seen many shot with a 9mm and the local Department got away from the 9mm when it was proven in the field to be ineffective. As an expert in court, I have also testified as to what went wrong in shootings as well as gang style use of weapons.

Any gun will kill or injure. The word kill becomes more pronounced as the choice of caliber becomes larger.

What made the 9mm popular in the US was the large ammo capacity and it's ability to fire many rounds. This was very important to those that did not practice good marksmanship. Officers in the streets began to feel outgunned when carrying a revolver with six rounds and facing a shooter with 19 rounds. Various departments began using primarily Glocks (of which I carry but not a fan of) in 9mm. Today the majority of those departments have changed to the .40 caliber for several reasons, primarily the stopping power (more on this shortly). It is more desirable to stop aggression early on. There is not much safety in a long continuing gun battle. Hitting one in the stomach with a .40 or such is more of an attention getter than with a 9mm.

But now for a couple real time examples.

Shortly after the issuance of the 9mm in place of the S&W .357 (the finest gun made in my opinion for law enforcement) there were some evident problems. Though officer involved shootings were not common beforehand or afterward, those that occurred were seeing more rounds fired. Officers had began the spray and pray type firing rather than depending on accuracy since the sidearm held more ammo. Yet the more noticible factor was the added hits it was taking to stop aggression.

One of the first departmental shootings after the introduction of the 9mm into service involved 6 officers doing a drug stop. The dealer was known to be armed and had shot others before. He was in his vehicle and was unable to flee so he began shooting. The perp was struck 16 times and lived to stand trial. Fortunately he did not injure any officers. A total of 62 rounds were fired from officers weapons. Many did not penetrate the car door or windshield.

Another shooting followed days later and an officer was critically wounded. The perp was approached in an alley behind a store. There was no place for concealment or cover and the perp began shooting a .38 special. The officer was hit twice and went down but continued firing. Later the perp sought treatment at a local hospital with a trauma center and was taken into custody after being treated for five bullet wounds. He remained mobile after being struck in the torso with five hits. Had this happened with larger caliber ammo, he would likely not have survived. The officer was struck in lesser vital areas but was in the hospital for weeks while the perp was in a cell three days later.

As was stated, the object is not to kill but cease the forward aggression of the combatant. A 9mm is not going to do that unless accuracy is at it's best. We all know accuracy is often forgotten during stressful conditions.

Since the issuance of heavier calibers in law enforcement work, the amount of hits to stop aggression has dropped.

Now as to the gangbangers. They do not practice and that is why they use the AK-47 and other weapons of large capacity. Their accuracy sucks and they need and require more guns and more rounds. Also they do not hang around to remain in gun fights. They mostly shoot by drive by since they stand a smaller chance of being struck by return fire.

Years ago, many gangs required someone shoot a victim as a show of courage as well as loyalty. They soon found that shooters were generally apprehended shortly after a shooting and the shooters were being tried as felons. Gangs learned that shooting livestock was misdemeanor offenses and handled more often with fines as opposed to jail time. Liveshock shootings went up and drive by shootings dropped some.

Sorry for this but I will put in a funny shooting as well. A group of three gangbangers were in a van with sliding doors on both sides of the vehicle and these doors were left open as they drove around looking for their intended target. The target was spotted walking down a city street and the driver handed the brother in the rear of the van a AK-47 with the instructions to shoot the individual. A major probelm here was this punk had never shot a gun in his life, yet he took the gun and proceeded to shoot out the right side of the van. Unfortunately for the others, the target began running across the road in front of the van as he attempted to make it to a large drainage ditch. He had not been hit by the novice shooter and the front seat passengers kept yelling for him to shoot. He did so following the movements of the target running in front of the van. The shooter took out both front seat gang members, hitting them at point blank range in the back of their heads and side of the face. Both died of injuries sustained. The target gets away and the shooter leaves the scene after the van jumped a curb and struck a utility pole.

Sorry for the long post but wanted to speak from experiences found in the field but to sum it up, which would you rather be hit with, a 9mm, a .40, or one of the magnums, assuming a non vital area of the abdomen. Enough said?

Read in the local paper here where a gal shot her husband five times with a .45, two in the chest, one in the sternum, once in the bicep, once in the shoulder. I will assume that the gun was loaded with FMJ as he survived.

Well, what about when the 180 lbs man has 7% body fat and the 240 lbs man has 40% body fat?

The short answer though... no, 9mm is not a poor round.

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- The Federalist #46 -

I use the 9mm and I am more likely to be attacked than the rest of you since I use sarcasm heavily in my day to day dialogues. So that should settle that!

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

Now I am truly convinced

Maybe reading the book, "NO Second Place Winner" by Bill Jordan would be informative for you.

I do not know of an agency that has lost a gunfight but I know of several officers that have. I attended the funerals of seven in the last 12 yrs. The perp was either apprehended or fatally wounded. This was with the officers carrying .40's. The law is going to win but at what cost.

As to carrying a 9mm, I cannot name one department still using the 9mm and I do work for 57 depts in Louisiana. Even more rare is a department still using revolvers. How often does your agency switch out sidearms? Most here replace in five years but they remain with the .40 based on many things but heavily influenced by the studies done by the FBI and other groups.

Quoted from a 2006 "USA TODAY" article
"The district attorney in DeKalb County, an Atlanta suburb where 12 people have been killed by police this year, says she may present evidence to a grand jury."
My patrol captain retired after 35 years with DKPD. He was in a command staff position there in 2006, and was present after all these shootings...
DKPD carried, at this time, Beretta 92's....9mm handguns.....all of these OIS were with the Beretta.
They are transitioning to M&P .40 cals as I type this...but to suggest 9mm isn't in use by a large agency isn't the case.....

while I carry a larger caliber than as a primary duty firearm, I don't feel underarmed, or unarmed with a 9mm as my backup, or off duty piece (when I am not carrying my M49 Smith, jeez I have a lot of different choices seems like)
We don't swap every 5 years, but every 10 years, with armorers that do repairs and keep things running...
We issue 40 to everyone, and approve 9mm, 40's, 45 GAP and ACP....

The operative words show your dept is using .40 but allows for other calibers. Many smaller officers find the .40 a little harsh to fire and can handle a 9mm better. Some depts allow this and most do not.

While there will be some depts somewhere that still use the 9mm, they are being phased out. I know one dept in MS that went from 9mm to .45acp but most have gone to .40.

Make no mistake about my feelings. I am not against the 9mm as it is better than nothing when needed. I own four of them by various makers but the .40 gives better results and stats around the country as well as testing bears this out. I still own a few hundred rounds of the original Black Talon ammo in 9mm.

In my discussions with 9mm shooters as to why they use them, the answer always comes back to one of two reasons. It is either cheaper to shoot or they have not had the opportunity to buy another caliber like they would love to own.

We buy 9mm, 40 and 45ACP ammo....
I agree that 40 is rapidly becoming the round of choice, and I also agree that it performs well....however, we all know that no handheld firearm is a guarantee that a human will instantly stop upon the impact of one round...
My duty gun of choice is the G 38/39, either of which I carry on and sometimes off duty....

I can agree with this totally. I have seen people killed with a 22 and seen them live through being hit in the head with a .45 but the larger calibers tend to draw their attention to their injury and off their intended victim.

NOTICE: Highly inexperienced yet logical opinion ahead.

In any defensive shooting situation the idea is to keep firing until the threat ceases. Well placed shots make that happen very quickly. I can get such a shot with any caliber the first time (in practice at least, hopefully I'll never put it to the test), but the issue comes with shot 2, 3, 4, and so on. 9mm is definitely one of the most manageable rounds to recover from and get back on target, and modern bullet designs and loadings ensure that each shot does damage. People have been dropped by a single round of .22LR and have survived multiple hits of .44Mag. It's not so much about the caliber as the ability to put whatever you have where it belongs, as fast as possible.

9mm works.

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Fast is fine;accurate is final

Blather,blather, blather. Sure a .45 makes a bigger hole then a 9MM. I guess all those people killed on the spot with a .22 just died of fright.

Big bullets generaly are better then little bullets. But it's where they hit thats really important.

zactly, and this is where ALL these debates end up, with the ultimate truth...it ain't the arrow, it is the indian shooting it

Since any factory-standard 9mm defensive cartridge will have more than enough kinetic energy to crush human bone at fifty yards, all of them will be perfectly adequate at normal defensive distances.

Nine is fine with good modern ammo and is the king of capacity amongst major service calibers.

From my experience running the mobile range for the past 5 years, most officers shoot way better with the 9 than either the 40 or 45...

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

I really like my .45's, but when I carry a 9mm, I most definitely do NOT feel "under-gunned".

And I have yet to see anyone who trashes the 9 as a less than manly round, offer to take two in the chest to prove the point.

A Warrior's Sacrifice - lawofficer.com

The fact of the matter is, is that handguns of any size don't do a good job on stopping people. A 9mm is the perfect balance between stopping power and practicality. I'm trust both of my 9s with my life.

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Don't look, reload and shoot!

Not sure about your statement since I have a cousin with LAPD and they have been using the .40 for a while. Also, if you will search some public records, you will find the military is phasing out the 9mm and as such, is currently using both until the phase out is completed.

Yes, the 9mm has been around a long time but then so has the buggy whip. Times change. Technology changes. Better ideas come and go once an even better idea arrives.

There will always be people that want the 9mm and that is fine if they are comfortable with it. I still often carry a S&W .357 with six rounds and do not feel undergunned. I also stated I am not a fan of Glock but I carry the Glock 22 during my daily work. All I am saying is the studies show the 9mm to be an inferior projectile to the .40 and most depts have gone to the .40 while other depts allow carry of several approved calibers, one of which is the 9mm.

The military recently ordered a ton of new Beretta M9's. Sure the USCG and some individual units are using .40's, but in general it's still the M9 and will be for the forseeable future.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

FWIW, it ought to be mentioned that the military uses the 9mm NATO. It's a different cartridge because it runs at higher pressure than even commercial +P+ 9mm offerings IIRC. I doubt that the U.S. would ditch the NATO cartridge without the other member nations agreeing to do so. Also, military ammo is FMJ, so those of us not restricted to the use of such ammo ought to look at the performance of the best JHPs, not the battlefield performance of nonexpanding bullets.

Al Gore invented the internet for two purposes:
Ultra fast immediate access to porn
Making 9mm shooters feel that their carry gun is inadequate

I don't need the porn, and I believe no matter what caliber, center mass hits count

I think it all comes down to that Sheriff. Good hits. And just as important, keep getting good hit's until the subject is out of the fight.

I carry all three calibers and don't feel bad about either. I am confident in my ability to defend myself effectively with either one.

We can argue/discuss caliber choice all we want. And some people do. We all know that caliber selection is only part of the self defense package as well as gun selection, training, practice, and mindset. One without the rest is dangerous to yourself and those around you.

If they can't hit you running, then try standing still.

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Sure you did

What kanewpadle said is true. Bullet placement is the key with any type of ammo. Normaly,I aim for the eyes with my 9mm Glocks and my revolvers in .357/.38 ammo. So you can take it for what it is worth but,also the shot placement is key to putting bg down and to make sure the bg dont get back up. rz625-8

My favorite quote on the subject: "sure it matters who's got the biggest stick, but it matters alot more who's swinging it."

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Fast is fine;accurate is final

What? A caliber war on an internet forum?

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Don't need no stinkin' sigline

If it IS a war, then I will be bringing my .45acp as the 9mm is clearly inferior firepower when it comes to internet based warfare. (Of course that's not true in real life.)

well i have a few comments, if you are looking between the 9mm and the .40 my winchester PDX1 JHP will expand to over .60 and fly at over 1000 fps, and second there was a saying that was pretty darn true, a .45 will make a substantial wound a 9mm will make a substantial number of wounds, both do the job go with what works for you

You guys need to quit depending on those 100 year old cartridges and get yourself a 10mm.

I have a 10mm. I use it every time I bleed the brakes on a Corolla

you know the ballistics on my .40 still don't touch my '100 year old' .45 both do the job I just love the .45

"I have a 10mm. I use it every time I bleed the brakes on a Corolla"

Strato, you have a Toyota with working brakes? You better check that thing for recalls, LOL!!

Actually my ex has the Toyota and she became my ex because she recently got pregnant from another man.

I think the brakes work

And SHE got the car??? Shoot fire and save the matches, I would have been doing back flips if any of my ex wives would have gotten pregnant by other men. Each of them backed up to my house with a truck and loaded up my stuff. One had the guts to take my gun collection. I got most of the guns back and the money she got out of the others.

Nobody backed up to my house. I moved her out. The car was hers. I got my truck and van. She didn't want anything of mine and I didn't want anything of hers. We still kinda get along but I think if she would've wanted one of my guns I wouldn't have given her the whole gun, well maybe the Jennings.

Soooo...

It's pretty well established that the 1400-fps 125-grain SJHP in .357 Magnum was a freakin' lightning bolt in the hands of LEOs. Far as I know, very few informed people can be found who will dispute that.

And 9mm Speer Gold Dot 124-gr +P chronographs at a hair under 1300-fps from my GLOCK barrel. How can a mere 100-fps difference from two bullets with almost identical diameters and weight make a significant difference?

I am issued a G22 but am authorized to carry a 9mm on duty, and I feel equally capable and protected with either of them. My issued .40 is down for repair issues so my 9mm is in the Safariland 6365 and all is good as far as I am concerned.

Shot placement matters. Peripheral hits are a roll of the dice no matter the cartridge.

I love these threads. I really do.

I do not think the 9mm and .357 mag are even close in in either diameter or weight. I have a few hundred rounds of each and often have the ammo side by side. Not even close.

In the attached photos, I used Black Talon (yes, the original Black Talon) for comparison.

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My take on the whole caliber wars issue is simple.
Shot Placement means more than anything else in my eyes.
I carry what I feel most comfortable with, and by comfortable with I mean what I can shoot accurately, including follow-up shots.
My carry options vary from a Model 36(pre +P), a Model 65, a 686+, a Model 29 and a Kimber Pro Crimson Carry II.
The Model 29 is a little on the bulky side, to be concealed easily, and doesn't get carried very often.
The Model 36 is a family heirloom or sorts, and gets carried on special occasions and when I need deep concealment.
The Kimber is a semi-auto and the one I am least accurate with(acceptable but not great).
The Model 65 and the 686+ are the two I shoot best, and the two I carry most often.
I set high standards for myself and I won't carry anything I don't have confidence in. Part of that confidence is 3 inch or smaller groups at 21 feet, regularly. If I can shoot that well or better, I'm pretty sure the .357 Magnum round will do it's job, if I do mine.

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Miss Fire, you are 100% correct and I admire your choice of arms.

I would like to add that shot placement is only part of the total package. If the caliber is not enough to get the attention, even in a well placed shot, the perp is going to keep moving. If shot placement alone is critical, then use a nice .22 semi and put 5-6 rounds in a given area.

Yes, many have been killed by a .22 but a lot more have continued their evil ways after being hit. If a person does not fall when hit, it means he was not impressed with your choice of weapons. As previously discussed often, most LE agencies and military units have gone to larger calibers.

The 9mm is a fine gun, shoots well, little recoil and other desired traits. It is also cheaper to shoot. Justify owning and carrying one any way you want but it is still inferior to larger calibers such as the .40, .45, .357mag, .38 and the list goes on.

One of the cases I worked by about 1990 was where a man well over 6 feet and about 275pounds was shot as he attacked a man of smaller size. He was shot 3 times in the chest with a 9mm and lived long enough to still choke the man to death before passing out. He was tried and found guilty of 2nd degree homicide. Had he been hit in the same area with a larger caliber, he likely would not have been able to reach his intended victim according to the coroner at the trial.

Please note that the areas still using the 9mm in law enforcement are anti gun areas.

Last summer the police shot a local man at his home. He was hit 5 out of 9 shots fired with 40 S&W hollow points. Two hit him in the upper right torso the other three hit him in the upper arm. He ended up loosing most of his right arm, and 1 of the bullets that hit him in torso went through his lung. Was talking to the man a month or so ago, and he said that one of the bullets that hit him had gone through a double pain house window, through a vase on a table, through him, a picture, through two (2) walls, and through the fender of his Suburban.

It seems the police need to improve their accuracy. I bet he fell instantly even with the misplaced bullets. In over 38 yrs of crime scene reconstruction, I personally have never seen such penetration by a handgun bullet but I have heard a lot of embelishment by offenders. I question why the window would be penetrated first, maybe last but unless they are shooting into the window from outside and that is unlikely.

In this case, I would question how he knows it was the same bullet doing all the damage. Breaking it down, most BB guns will penetrate a double pane window. A pellet gun can penetrate such a window and a vase. A .22 caliber will do the same and into a human body. Past that, there has been so much momentum lost that little will begin penetrating walls. Even using 1/4inch wallboard, that would be a half inch of wallboard, not counting the other items. With penetration comes parasite drag and resulting co-efficient friction. A rifle bullet may do it but handguns would if they are hot loads.

We spend hours studying what happens at a shooting and why. Often the area is sealed for weeks in the event we need to re-examine something. It is all needed so fault can be determined and wrongful actions decided. The path of each bullet is traced with some expensive equipment. In the event of shell casings on the floor, ground or etc, their position also tells us pretty much where the firearm was when fired, the way it was being held and the location of the shooter. My degrees are in engineering and law as well as in business. All my education, training, experience, equipment and court testimony is examined each time I testify unless there is stipulation approving my credentials. Many people do not understand all that goes on in the background after a LEO or criminal shooting.

Doesn't NYPD still have all 9mm handguns?

IIRC Sig P226, Glock 19, and S&W 5946. S&W special order DAO 3914 for off duty.

Kahr 9mm was authorized for off duty at one time. I'm not sure it still is.

Interesting tid bit for those who may be interested. The last three GSW homicides I worked at my old agency, involved 9mm.

One was a one shot stop........with WWB BALL!! The other two each involved two torso hits. In both of the latter cases ball ammo was also used, and in both latter cases the rounds were recovered from the decedants bodies.

Just for the record, at my old agency I had a would be robber shot in the neck with a single round of Winchester Ranger 40. Store owner shot him at a range of four feet. The 40 round went through and through homeys neck and the crime scene techs picked it up off the floor (slightly expanded) about two feet from where EMS was working on him. He survived BTW and is now a guest of the state. Point is, no round is fool proof and Murphy rules.

Nine is fine and shot placement trumps everything. But use a Remington 870 if possible anyway.

Paraphrasing Erich's famous signature, "Everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin". Regards 18DAI.

Very few people have "vast" experience shooting an killing other people and I am no different. I am no different but in my limited experience, the only cartridges that exceed the 9mm Parabellum in terminal inefficiency are the .32 ACP and .25 ACP. While any cartridge/caliber has the potential to kill, larger and/or more powerful roounds do it with more reliability.