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  #1  
Old 03-29-2010, 11:01 PM
P&R Fan P&R Fan is offline
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Default CCW Reciprocity

My friend Toyman has a recent thread about Iowa passing "shall issue" legislation and recognizing other states permits. Looks like a done deal, but I want to warn you to make sure before you carry in another state. This past weekend a friend of mine went to St. Louis. He has an Iowa CCW and had read on the Iowacarry web site that Missouri honors Iowa permits. I said I wanted to double check so I called the Missouri Highway Patrol and they confirmed this. However they said some cities may have stricter rules. When called, the St. Louis PD said Missouri DOES NOT honor Iowa permits. When told the Highway Patrol said they do, they said to ask the Sheriffs Dept. The Sheriffs Dept also said Missouri DOES NOT honor Iowa permits. I called the Missouri Attorney Generals Office and they said yes, Missouri honors Iowa permits. I advised them to inform St. Louis PD and the Sheriffs Dept., they apologized for the confusion.
I can only imagine what my friend would have gone through if an LEO in one of these depts. had found out he was carrying. Probably a night in jail and then an OOPS, MY BAD in the morning. My point is MAKE SURE before you carry. I certainly don't want this to sound in any way critical of Law enforcement, or even the depts. I've mentioned, but sometimes the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing. When that happens it helps to know the facts, and the law.
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Old 03-29-2010, 11:15 PM
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I have even seen LEO's get into hot water in other states (detained and even arrested) for carrying concealed because law enforcement agencies or officers did not understand The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (HR218). If cops will arrest cops out of "ignorance of the law" imagine what they will do to permit holders. It pays to read, research and verify. I would even consider getting a dated letter from the AG's office that you could show along with your permit.
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Old 03-29-2010, 11:24 PM
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You could probably print the listing from your state's website as to which states they reciprocate with. Have it in your car just in case.
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Old 03-30-2010, 06:37 AM
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Mr. Oaklands: better yet print from THE STATE YOU ARE VISITING's website the statement of recriprocity.
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Old 03-30-2010, 07:07 AM
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I strongly agree with the above but would like to take it a little futher down the road.

You best know the law where you are visiting. Some states do not allow printing, some call a hint of a gun brandishing. My state will not allow a CCW holder to carry at a parade for which a parade permit was issued. At least one state I know of forbids carrying on government owned property.

While carrying concealed, ignornace of the law is not an excuse.

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Old 03-30-2010, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P@R Fan View Post
My friend Toyman has a recent thread about Iowa passing "shall issue" legislation and recognizing other states permits. Looks like a done deal, but I want to warn you to make sure before you carry in another state. This past weekend a friend of mine went to St. Louis. He has an Iowa CCW and had read on the Iowacarry web site that Missouri honors Iowa permits. I said I wanted to double check so I called the Missouri Highway Patrol and they confirmed this. However they said some cities may have stricter rules. When called, the St. Louis PD said Missouri DOES NOT honor Iowa permits. When told the Highway Patrol said they do, they said to ask the Sheriffs Dept. The Sheriffs Dept also said Missouri DOES NOT honor Iowa permits. I called the Missouri Attorney Generals Office and they said yes, Missouri honors Iowa permits. I advised them to inform St. Louis PD and the Sheriffs Dept., they apologized for the confusion.
When that happens it helps to know the facts, and the law.
According to Missouri Attorney General's Office :: Concealed Weapons :: Concealed Carry Reciprocity

MO does NOT recognized Iowa permits. And that is from the MO Atty Gen website. This simply due to the State of Iowa not having a state wide carry permit in place.
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Old 03-30-2010, 11:58 AM
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If you look at that web site it is referring to the states that don't honor Missouri's permits, not the other way around. As I stated in my post, both the State Patrol and Attorney Generals Office advised me that Missouri DOES honor Iowa permits, although in fairness to all parties it is a fairly recent development. After legislation passed yesterday, Iowa will likely honor other states permits soon. We'll keep you posted.
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Old 03-30-2010, 12:06 PM
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Default Actually, I believe the Missouri law honors

EVERYBODY's permits. I may be wrong, but I think they even accept city/county permits where such are issued. For some time after the Missouri CCW law was passed, St. Louis was saying they wouldn't honor Missouri's permits. It was explained to them by the courts that they didn't have a choice.
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Old 03-30-2010, 01:23 PM
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When traveling you should have a CURRENT list of laws in all the states you will be traveling through. (printed out and in a folder) You should know each states laws. New Jersey had at one time a Felony charge for non LEO persons carrying Jacketed Hollow Points or so a teaching retired Ohio police chief told me. (when John Corizine was Govenor of New Jersey????) Some people think if they have a CCW they can just travel across the country and some even try to enter Canada, what a mess that can turn into.
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Old 03-30-2010, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P@R Fan View Post
If you look at that web site it is referring to the states that don't honor Missouri's permits, not the other way around. As I stated in my post, both the State Patrol and Attorney Generals Office advised me that Missouri DOES honor Iowa permits, although in fairness to all parties it is a fairly recent development. After legislation passed yesterday, Iowa will likely honor other states permits soon. We'll keep you posted.
Please do. I need Iowa. My Pa., Utah, and New Hampshire do not.
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Old 03-30-2010, 08:50 PM
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Re the HP in NJ, HPs are only allowed in the box or at the range. You can't even have them loaded in a weapon in your own house. As with anything else, laws generally don't apply to NJ LEOs.
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:50 PM
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St Louis has long been a hotbed of illegal activity, from getting kickbacks from the towing company that was illegally towing, to on-duty police officers going from business to business browbeating the owners into posting "No Firearms Allowed" signs, paid for and furnished by the city. I go there as seldom as possible, but I do CCW when I go, and my attorney is on speed dial.
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Old 04-01-2010, 06:13 PM
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P@R Fan originally posted that he didn't want to appear critical of the police he spoke to. I think he was being overly polite and considerate. I personally think it is pathetic the cops are not professional enough to know what the laws are in their jurisdiction.
I'm a high school teacher, and i need to know all the special ed laws along with all the general laws regarding public education. I'm not allowed to say, "My Bad" sorry i didn't know."
The average cop up my way is an idiot. They don't even make an attempt to appear professional.
Its very sad.
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Old 04-01-2010, 06:32 PM
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Being an Iowa CCW holder I think its great what they are doing with the new law. I'd like to see a more uniform reciprocity in all states as far as CCW's go, while each state retaining its own soverienty. Maybe someday they will think we are mature enough to have firecrackers and bottlerockets on the 4th of July. I think I've gotten all the mileage I can with my kids with sparklers and snakes. LOL
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:17 PM
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It is amazing how the laws vary from state to state. I am in TN and they are working on passing the law again to be able to carry into a restaurant serving alcohol. You can't have a drink yourself but it is a big improvement.

I was talking to some guys on the Pennsylvania forum and they said you could stagger out while carrying a gun. Of course they didn't recommend it but you could have a couple of drinks and not have to worry.

I will be happy not having to leave my gun in the truck while going out for lunch.
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Old 04-02-2010, 07:36 AM
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PDL, As per HP in your Home.

Provided certain conditions are met, a sportsman may transport and use hollow point ammunition. There are
no restrictions preventing a sportsman from keeping such ammunition at his home.
N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception
that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This
exception provides that:
(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his
dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the
place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].
Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f
(1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities
pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ."
N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).
Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows:
1.A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle
Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;
2.A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;
3.A person going directly to a target range, and;
4.A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting
exhibitions.
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Old 04-02-2010, 02:06 PM
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I'll be making a trip another state that has reciprocity with my home state. It is not an immediate neighbor and a state I don't visit regularly. So I took the time to review that State's CCW laws. As a visitor, that is my responsibility and I must honor the laws of that state - even if they are more cumbersome than those of my home state.

Additionally, I have printed and will be taking with me for reference purposes the actual reciprocity agreement between the states made available by my home state's AG, a synopsis of the state's firearms laws, NRA-ILA reciprocity info card, and a print out of CCW "do's and don't's" from the Sheriff's office in the area where I will be visiting.

I have tried to do my homework as a responsible CCWer. I hope the enforcers in the state have done theirs and there is no issue like that described in St. Louis.
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Old 04-02-2010, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Slider View Post
PDL, As per HP in your Home.

Provided certain conditions are met, a sportsman may transport and use hollow point ammunition. There are
no restrictions preventing a sportsman from keeping such ammunition at his home.
N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception
that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This
exception provides that:
(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his
dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the
place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].
Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f
(1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities
pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ."
N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).
Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows:
1.A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle
Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;
2.A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;
3.A person going directly to a target range, and;
4.A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting
exhibitions.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. That's what I said, in the box or at the range. I didn't think I had to point out, you could carry them 'in the box' from the store to home and etc. You can keep them in your home, but they can't be in a weapon anywhere except at the range.
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Old 04-03-2010, 06:24 AM
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PDL,

I posted that to point out that you can have them in your home and can have them loaded in a firearm at home. Your post stated that you couldn't have them loaded up at home. It is just out side your property that you can't have them loaded up.
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Old 04-03-2010, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Slider View Post
PDL,

I posted that to point out that you can have them in your home and can have them loaded in a firearm at home. Your post stated that you couldn't have them loaded up at home. It is just out side your property that you can't have them loaded up.
Gary,
I have to disagree with you on having HPs loaded in your home. You don't want to be in NJ with HPs loaded in a weapon, except at the range.
The statutes say you can have the ammo, it doesn't say loaded in a weapon. And the 'on your property' is also in question. If you've got them in your home, that's one thing. If you're walking around the yard with HPs loaded in a pistol, you could easily get a free ride in the local cop car.

Edit to add ==> Sorry, don't want to hijack the OP's thread. so I'll not keep on.
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Last edited by PDL; 04-03-2010 at 11:33 PM.
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Old 04-03-2010, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
According to Missouri Attorney General's Office :: Concealed Weapons :: Concealed Carry Reciprocity

MO does NOT recognized Iowa permits. And that is from the MO Atty Gen website. This simply due to the State of Iowa not having a state wide carry permit in place.
This is my understanding as well. I believe since Iowa will not recognize any other states permits, there is no resiprocity (sp?) so, your Iowa permit is only valid in Iowa. In addition, I believe the current Iowa permits are not even good in every county there. Screwy deal there for certain.

I do not believe the IA Gov has signed the new "shall issue" legislation even though he indicated that he will.
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Old 04-04-2010, 08:29 AM
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I do not believe the IA Gov has signed the new "shall issue" legislation even though he indicated that he will.
Even if the Gov signs, which he may well do, the law would not be immediately implemented. Likely it would be the first of next year before the law is in place and all the support agencies set up.

Then there is legislation needed to get the reciprocity agreements with other states. Both states would have to get approval for it to happen and that takes place only with the assistance of at least three state operations on each side. Here it would be the LA State Police, the LA Attorney General and the LA legislature. Since the wheels of government move slowly, how long do you think it will take to get the agreements signed?
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Old 04-04-2010, 09:10 AM
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Again I'll state that the Missouri Attorney Generals web site is clearly referring to which states honor MISSOURI'S carry permits, not the other way around. In my OP I referred to the fact I contacted the AG's office (and got their phone number from this web site) and spoke to the assistant AG himself. He confirmed that yes, Missouri honors Iowa permits, even though Iowa doesn't honor theirs (yet). Also the Highway patrol confirmed this, as does the Iowacarry web site. Don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I did my homework.
Also. yes, Iowa permits are good in every county in the state. I've had one for 25 years, and this has always been the case.
Now, off to church.
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Old 04-04-2010, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P@R Fan View Post
Again I'll state that the Missouri Attorney Generals web site is clearly referring to which states honor MISSOURI'S carry permits, not the other way around. In my OP I referred to the fact I contacted the AG's office (and got their phone number from this web site) and spoke to the assistant AG himself. He confirmed that yes, Missouri honors Iowa permits, even though Iowa doesn't honor theirs (yet). Also the Highway patrol confirmed this, as does the Iowacarry web site. Don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I did my homework.
Also. yes, Iowa permits are good in every county in the state. I've had one for 25 years, and this has always been the case.
Now, off to church.
Still not beating a dead horse, but the link here:
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USReciprocity.pdf
says Iowa honors MO but Mo does not honor Iowa.

I read the MO laws on concealed carry and it plainly shows they do not honor Iowa permits.

As to asking the AG, it is likely you only spoke with an Assistant AG and they are unlikely to even look things up but just give a blanket answer. I have this happen all the time when even face to face with a District Atty and then in court, they deny every giving a legal opinion on the question at hand. What matters is what the LAW says in writing and that is what the Judge is going to go by.

The good part is most LEO will not bother to bring charges against an out of state person for such since getting them back for trial would be difficult and expensive. They will just let you go.

I have been in law enforcement for over 38 yrs and do not know all the laws and since laws change each year, no person knows all the laws even the judges. I know LA honors several states but I do not know all of them.

I also know that many states will honor, say FL, permits but will not honor non resident FL permits. It is a thin line to walk but the burden of proof is on the permitee and not on the State. You would not get anyone from the AG office to ever admit even talking with you.
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Old 04-04-2010, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonman View Post
When traveling you should have a CURRENT list of laws in all the states you will be traveling through. (printed out and in a folder) You should know each states laws. New Jersey had at one time a Felony charge for non LEO persons carrying Jacketed Hollow Points or so a teaching retired Ohio police chief told me. (when John Corizine was Govenor of New Jersey????) Some people think if they have a CCW they can just travel across the country and some even try to enter Canada, what a mess that can turn into.
The hollow point statute has been in effect for nearly two decades, when NJ passed a series of laws to mimic the Clinton ban, and added some of their own little extras. While hollow points are legal to possess in your home and at the range, they are illegal elsewhere, unless you are going to and from a range, competitive event, or hunting trip. Most of this doesn't matter since CCW is "may issue" (by county judges) and the only one's who get them are politicians, celebrities, and organized crime figures. They DO NOT honor any other state's CCW permits/license.
Hunting is limited to shotgun and muzzleloader only, as well, so centerfire rifle and handgun hunting with hollow points is also moot.
Finally, God help you if you shoot an intruder in your home with a hollow point! Most NJ residents in the know load FMJ and lead solids, or use the Glaser Safety Slug equivalents to limit penetration issues. The shotgun option is also popular (no slugs or buck shot, of course).
The "logic" of this statute probably came out of the NATO, etc. rules mandating FMJ ammo for "humanitarian" reasons. The "cop-killer" moniker also entered into this as well. The issue of penetration never entered the minds of those who created this.
Law enforcement in NJ, BTW, may still use HP ammo, thank goodness. The crooks, of course, ignore all of this, until they're shot with one while in the act of robbing/threatening you in your home. Then they sue you for your use of those "cruel bullets".
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Last edited by ncy54; 04-04-2010 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 04-04-2010, 04:35 PM
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I hear ya nyc54. I live in Pennsylvania but work in New Jersey. I use to get Buffalo Bore LSWCHP's shipped to my office and the drive them home. Then I thought what if I get stopped for speeding or something and the officer finds my hollow points. I don't want to get in trouble and go to court to defend myself so they are shipped to my home in PA now.
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Old 04-04-2010, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
Still not beating a dead horse, but the link here:
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USReciprocity.pdf
says Iowa honors MO but Mo does not honor Iowa.

I read the MO laws on concealed carry and it plainly shows they do not honor Iowa permits.

As to asking the AG, it is likely you only spoke with an Assistant AG and they are unlikely to even look things up but just give a blanket answer.
I certainly respect your opinion as an LEO, but Iowacarry is very thorough in their research about reciprocity. I won't argue the fact that sometimes legal counsel may give off the cuff advice, I'm sure you speak from experience on that matter ,but that still leaves the Missouri Highway patrol, who also confirms the fact that Missouri honors Iowa's carry permits. The Missouri CCW laws are fairly new, I believe, and these facts may not yet be reflected in this matter.
I suspect that is why the St. Louis PD and that counties Sheriffs Dept. initially advised they don't honor Iowa permits. Local Depts. are probably not always up to speed on these issues as soon as State agencies. I'm just speculating, and once again do not wish to disrespect any agencies mentioned, or anyone on here who may not agree with my findings. I am merely reporting on what I have found. I am a licensed Private Investigator, so I have some experience in finding information. I guess it boils down to two local depts. who, when presented with my findings, referred me elsewhere, against the Missouri Attorney Generals Office and the Missouri Highway Patrol both confirming the fact that Missouri does honor Iowa permits,in addition to Iowacarry.
I certainly don't want to offend anyone on this forum, but these are my findings, and I am satisfied that although Iowa does not yet honor any other states permits, (stay tuned, that should change soon), several states honor Iowa's, including Missouri.
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Old 04-04-2010, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
your Iowa permit is only valid in Iowa.
13 states honor IA (and other states') permits without any need for reciprocal agreements, including my state of OK.
In addition, AK and VT allow carry without any license.
So there's 15 states you can carry in without any reciprocal agreements:
AZ, UT ID, MT, SD, NE, OK, TX, MO, IN, KY, TN, MI, VT, AK
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  #29  
Old 04-04-2010, 09:53 PM
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P@R Fan,

The Link you provided for Handgunlaw.us does not say that Iowa honors any state permits. Read the header on the lists. The First page list a state and what states honor its permits. The Second page list a state and what permits it honors. Out from Iowa it states. Iowa does not honor any other states permits.

PDL,

You can have HP's Loaded in your defensive firearm at home. I should have said in your home. NJ Has no law saying you can't have them loaded in your defensive firearm inside your home.
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Old 04-04-2010, 10:27 PM
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Gary,
I didn't originally post that link, but I agree, as of RIGHT NOW, Iowa does not honor any other states permits. However, our state legislature (democrat controlled) just passed a shall issue law that is reported to include reciprocity issues pertaining to Iowa honoring other states permits. Our democrat Governor is supposedly going to sign it, will wonders never cease. I was well aware of the fact Iowa does not presently honor other states permits. The main issue we seem to be having a discussion on is what states honor Iowa's. See my previous posts for my position.
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Old 04-05-2010, 12:34 PM
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Here's an email I received today from an official in Iowa.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shall issue legislation has passed the Iowa legislature and is awaiting signature by the governor. When signed, the new law will allow Iowa to recognize carry permits issued in any other state. The effective date will be January 1, 2011.

Sam Knowles
Program Services Bureau
Iowa Dept. of Public Safety
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For those of us with FL and/or UT multi-state CCW permits it looks like we'll be legal in Iowa in 2011.
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Old 04-05-2010, 01:37 PM
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The IOWA law gives power to decide which states CCW to recognize to the Commissioner of Public Safety and directs him to make comparisons to IOWA's law. Utah may be in trouble because Utah does not require shooting to qualifiy for CCW. Last year NEVADA quit recognizig Utah for that reason.
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Old 04-08-2010, 11:47 AM
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We travel through Iowa a couple times a year and I have an Arizona CCW.
This is the reply is received from IOWA DPS when I asked about the new law.

Larry,
The Governor has not signed the bill yet. If he does, it will not be in effect until January 1, 2011.



Linda Stevens
[email protected]
Iowa Department of Public Safety
Program Services Bureau
215 East 7th Street
Des Moines, IA 50319
Phone: (515) 725-6231
FAX: (515) 725-6264
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  #34  
Old 04-08-2010, 12:34 PM
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If Linda says something, believe it. She's a friend of mine.
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Old 04-08-2010, 10:44 PM
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Default Iowa reciprocity

Personally, I hope they will recognize my MN permit: I drive through Iowa to South Dakota each time I visit my grandchildren...... Legal carry would be a relief.

Graytwo
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Old 04-08-2010, 10:55 PM
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I've always looked to this - don't know how up-to-date or accurate it is, but I know it's accurate in my area. Click on your state then any other(s) you are interested in:

Concealed Carry Permit Reciprocity Maps
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