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09-20-2017, 11:03 PM
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Safety Lesson
I've been carrying a Sig P238 for about five years; good reliable gun, convenient to carry, good .380 ammo available nowadays, never a malfunction.
A few years ago its big brother, the 9mm P938, came out. After hearing some good recommendations here, and the attraction of more choices of better powered ammo, I bought one about six weeks ago, tested a bunch of ammo, and started carrying it in a Kydex OWB holster at 3:30-4:00 o'clock.
Both pistols are very much mini-1911's less the grip safety. They have a thumb safety, the P238 only on the left, the P938 ambidextrous. All's been well until one day about two weeks ago, and again one day last week.
I carry all the time, and at bed time, take the pistol out of the holster, check for safety on, tap the magazine, test the laser and put it on my nightstand. The first time two+ weeks ago, I pulled the P938 out of the holster, went to do my bed time routine and was stunned to see the safety was off. The realization that I was walking around with a loaded, cocked and UNlocked pistol was a scary thought. I wasn't happy with myself, thinking I'd done something really dumb or the detent spring broke. I set the safety, and it snapped onto safe with a nice strong click and seemed securely locked. The next day, I went through the gun, checking again, all seemed well.
Last week, the same thing happened, and I reviewed my day in my mind.
I have a woodshop, crowded with lots of machinery, benches and work surfaces about waist height. I realized that I often bumped my hip moving around my crowded shop. The P938, with its ambi safety, had the right hand safety lever exposed on the outboard side of the gun, and I'm quite sure my bumping around knocked it onto the fire position. I ordered a left side only safety, put the P938 up and carried my old buddy the P238 until the new parts arrived.
No problem doing the swap, and the P938 is back on duty, safety lever completely covered by the holster. The lever was in the notch seen on the grip in the pic.
I thought about looking for a holster that would cover both sides of the gun, but I found I like feel of the gun better without the extra lever under the base of my trigger finger.
Given I never had this problem in five years of carrying the single safety P238, I feel safe and secure now.
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09-21-2017, 12:51 AM
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revolver revolver revolver revolver
Long DA trigger pull, no manual safety.
revolver revolver revolver revolver
This has been a public service announcement.
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09-21-2017, 01:01 AM
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The Sig 938, and 238 have a firing pin block, the gun will not go boom unless the trigger is pulled. The thumb safety is there because we are human, and not perfect. Make sure the safety is on when holstering, or removing the gun. If you are going to need the gun for SD, then the safety is coming off anyway. Make a habit of keeping your finger along the slide anytime handling the gun, unless shooting.
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09-21-2017, 02:05 AM
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That's been a known issue with ambidextrous safeties since they started putting them on pistols.
Back when, safeties were usually large enough to get the job done, there were safeties for the "other handed", but they were hard to find and relatively expensive, at least on handguns. Then practical pistol became popular and greatly unpractical widgets started being created. Safeties big as steak platters on both sides of the gun even if it wasn't really necessary (but it was tacticool). In the case of slide mounted safeties, I guess designers never realized the elegant solution was to make a reversible safety. Most long gun safeties are reversible.
Last edited by WR Moore; 09-21-2017 at 02:08 AM.
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09-21-2017, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomkinsSP
revolver revolver revolver revolver
Long DA trigger pull, no manual safety.
revolver revolver revolver revolver
This has been a public service announcement.
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Or any other DA gun!
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
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09-21-2017, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomkinsSP
revolver revolver revolver revolver
Long DA trigger pull, no manual safety.
revolver revolver revolver revolver
This has been a public service announcement.
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Not really a real help from some one not carrying a revolver. ( I am a wheel guy at times too).Glad O P got and is solving problem.
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09-21-2017, 12:06 PM
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I got a 938 on a trade deal. I kept the gun about a week.
I prefer to carry my DA/SA S&W 908 for these concerns exactly..
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09-21-2017, 03:06 PM
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I have a friend that carries a Browning Hi-Power with an ambidextrous safety. The levers on it are quite large. I had wondered about something like that happening. Does anyone know if the Hi-Power has any sort of drop proof firing pin safety.
I am sticking with my DA revolvers and autos.
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09-21-2017, 03:08 PM
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I have a friend who recently shot off his left index finger when handling his 1911 style pistol. This had quite an impact on me to the extent I've gotten rid of my Glock 17 & LCP BEFORE something happens in my household. This may seem extreme but I've had one close call and the combination of those things made my mind up. Handling a revolver is second nature based on my LEO experience so I'll stick w/that platform.
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09-21-2017, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by white cloud
Does anyone know if the Hi-Power has any sort of drop proof firing pin safety.
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The Mark III version has a firing pin safety. For older models without the firing pin safety you can always add an extra-power firing pin spring to minimize the possibility.
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09-21-2017, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old cop
I have a friend who recently shot off his left index finger when handling his 1911 style pistol.
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It wasn't the guns fault.
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09-21-2017, 03:26 PM
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Ambidextrous safeties on 1911s have been known to become disengaged in the holster. I would presume the same issues would be present on similar guns, like the Sig P238/938. I can't think of any specific makers off the top of my head, but I know there have been holsters made that block the underside of the safety lever to keep it from becoming disengaged when carrying.
I've owned a couple of 1911s, both with the single-sided, Colt factory lever. When using it left-handed, I never had issues bringing my left thumb around the back of the gun and disengaging the thumb safety. Engaging it was a little trickier, but could be done with either my thumb or the side of the knuckle of my trigger finger.
For these reasons, if I were to carry a 1911 (or similarly-designed gun), I would stick with the single-sided lever. I would probably also try to check it occasionally, with the gun still in the holster, to make sure the safety was still engaged.
I can see the utility of a slightly oversized thumb safety lever (i.e., the narrow, "tactical" extended lever). While I never failed to properly disengage the standard Colt thumb safety on my 1911s, I never had to do it while someone was trying to kill me. I like the idea of a bit more surface area to make handling a little more positive when under stress.
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09-21-2017, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomkinsSP
revolver revolver revolver revolver
Long DA trigger pull, no manual safety.
revolver revolver revolver revolver
This has been a public service announcement.
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I used to carry a S&W 638, but my arthritis now keeps my trigger finger from being able to do the "Long DA trigger pull."
I wish I could still do that and many other things too, but I have to adapt to my changing condition. I still love my blue Smiths, but my revolver shooting is now SA only.
On the plus side, I gained three more shots before a reload.
What do Marines say - something like "adapt, improvise and overcome"?
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09-21-2017, 04:30 PM
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Strange, my pistol has a safety but I never use it.
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09-21-2017, 04:54 PM
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Bigggbruce: I never meant my friends ND was the fault of the gun. It was clearly his fault but knowing my own limitations, especially as I get older, thought it best to stick with what I knew best, a revolver. That would be different if I was still a LEO.
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09-21-2017, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by white cloud
I have a friend that carries a Browning Hi-Power with an ambidextrous safety. The levers on it are quite large. I had wondered about something like that happening. Does anyone know if the Hi-Power has any sort of drop proof firing pin safety.
I am sticking with my DA revolvers and autos.
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Yes, the same as 70 series 1911's. Use a quality holster, and don't drop the gun.
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09-21-2017, 05:26 PM
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This is perfect example why I don't carry a 1911 cocked and locked. I just don't trust the safety wouldn't get moved to fire position. I actually don't care for any semi auto as my main carry.
I agree with the above. Revolver revolver revolver That's what I feel safest with so that's my main carry. To each his/her own feelings about what is safest gun to carry.
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09-22-2017, 05:47 AM
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You do realize that the safety isn't what keeps 1911-pattern pistols from firing in a holster, right? It's the covered trigger, which keeps the sear in the path of the hammer, which allows the hammer's half-cock notch to strike the sear face, which retards its motion enough to prevent the firing pin from striking the primer hard enough to fire.
And it's actually pretty good at this.
For the uninitiated, this is why you don't screw around with the internals of a for-carry 1911-pattern. You need pressure on the sear leg of the sear spring to make sure that it knocks the half-cock notch hard enough to prevent a discharge. Virtually every reputable manufacturer ships 1911s with perfectly good triggers. If you want a 2# pull, buy another pistol (SA ROs are good and relatively inexpensive, when they're available) and mess around with that. If you can't shoot a 1911 with a 5# pull--practice.
Oh, and this is also why you don't carry the cheap Philippines-manufactured frames (Armscor, among others). Frames for super-budget 1911s are built with a more "casual" approach to pin location. They're a false economy. If you want something cheap and don't care if it's awful, fine. If you're buying one with the idea that you're going to tune up the trigger, forget it. Many are so badly manufactured that it's aftermarket parts can't be made to give acceptable results. And by the time a pistolsmith fixes the bad gun, you'd have spent more than an entry-level or mid-range pistol costs.
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09-22-2017, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wise_A
You do realize that the safety isn't what keeps 1911-pattern pistols from firing in a holster, right? It's the covered trigger, which keeps the sear in the path of the hammer, which allows the hammer's half-cock notch to strike the sear face, which retards its motion enough to prevent the firing pin from striking the primer hard enough to fire.
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A cocked-and-locked 1911 that becomes unlocked while in the holster isn't going to magically fire. There would have to be some kind of catastrophic failure for that to happen that I have a difficult time imagining, unless someone did a super light trigger job like you mentioned. The belt-and-suspenders part of me would still check the safety periodically if I were to carry a 1911, but it wouldn't be something I'd freak out over.
FWIW, when I had a trigger job done on one of my 1911s, I specified a 4.5-5.0lb pull. It cleaned up nicely, and I never worried about the safety of the hammer/sear engagement. Interesting side note: Ed Brown guns come standard with a 3.5-4.0lb pull, but you can get a 4.5-5.0lb pull as an extra-cost option.
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09-22-2017, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Safeties big as steak platters on both sides of the gun even if it wasn't really necessary (but it was tacticool)
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One more thread that I'm glad I read! I have a P238 but don't carry it cocked and locked. It too has the single-side safety but I've never been comfortable with the whole C&L concept. I've got a slightly shopworn P230 that I can carry if a SIG .380 fits into my limited rotation. This morning, like the past few mornings, I had my newest (old) 442 in my pocket when I Drove Miss Daisy ... I fully understand the mechanics of SA autos and firing pin safety mechanisms.
Last edited by GeoJelly; 09-22-2017 at 11:26 AM.
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