Background: You are a police officer chasing a driver later learned to be intoxicated. The chase lasts five miles and uses several police units.

The driver stops and wrestles himself away from one officer before taking the stand shown below.

Do you fire or not?

Attached Images

MH_1.jpg (27.4 KB, 398 views)

If I know thats a weapon he's pointing at me or my partner, yes, bag him up

You know it is silver and has a barrel pointed at officers. There is a half second to make a decision. You also know he is trying to escape at any cost.

Do you fire?

I have been a LEO for 15 years. In the .5 second I would have to assess and decide, I would shoot and shoot and shoot.

From this photo, his stance looks like he's fixing to fire a gun, but what is in his hand isn't so clear. From head on (which I presume is where the LEO is seeing him from), it might look more like a gun. Or less. Or, most likely, it's not that clear in the dark, but the total picture is enough to make the LEO think he's about to get shot. Or maybe you're telling me that this side view is what the second officer sees as his buddy is about to get shot. I see a BG who acts like he has a gun. After fleeing five miles from cops and wrestling himself free from one.

SHOOT.

If the view I have is identical to the picture: No.

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Infected by Smith&Wesson

BANG, BANG!

I started to let the group play with this one for a while but I see the general mood of the people.

A complete video can be seen at many sites, including the following:

Shooting of marquise hudspeth | SPIKE

The "gun" was a cell phone the perp was threatening to shoot the officers with. He ran a short distance and spun around on the officers a second time before taking flight. As he spun the third time, he was shot a total of eight times in the back, fatally injuring him.

The outcome was the officers were cleared of any wrong doing by the DA, the DOJ and the FBI. A 10 million dollar suit filed by the fmaily against the police department was dismissed by a State Judge. The actions of the guy was ruled suicide by cop.

Anyone interested can google Marquis Hudsmith and read a lot more about it.

Yes. He could have been using the phone to call for back-up.

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

Well...there is a real cell phone gun that shoots .22 cal bullets. I would like to buy one.

To paraphrase "A Christmas Story"

You'll shoot your ear out.

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

Yes.

Doesn't look like a gun. But in the heat of the moment, especially in that situation, I would shoot.

The way that he is holding it and the way that it looks while he is holding it, yes I would have shot.

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Don't look, reload and shoot!

Fire for effect!

Yes

Upon closer look about 5-10 seconds it does not look like a firearm, if I took that much time to study the situation the other officer could be dead and he could be drawing down on me.

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Regards,
Guy-Harold Smith II

Yes, I'd shoot.....

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Get off my lawn.

Given the described situation and the nano second available to make the call...yes, I'd drop him like a bad habit. Suicide by cop is a ****** deal for the officer but it beats going to your partners funeral.

Yes, I'd shoot.




That's why you don't bring a cell phone to a gun fight.

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- The Federalist #46 -

There's an app for THAT????

From the perspective of retiring after 21 years as a LEO, anyone displaying anything in a manner obviously intending to be threatening and to make the target believe it is a gun he is threatening you with needs to be shot as soon as the threat is perceived. No amount of Monday-morning quarterbacking changes this. No one has a legal or moral obligation or requirement to allow the person making the threat to fire the first shot! If it is night, the object is shiny and being pointed at a person in a threatening manner, then it has to be assumed to be a gun.

I'm not a cop but given the entire situation.......I'd empty my mag!

you got to learn the rules of engagement...................

YouTube - Cool Hand Luke "Failure To Communicate."

he would have been dead, you want to make me believe you have a gun, then just act like it, I don't take those kinds of chances, I have a wife and kids

I know someone who was involved in a similar scenario. People came running past the officers yelling, "He has a gun!" The guy came out with his hand pointing through his pocket. The officers opened fire and killed him.

It turned out that he didn't have a gun and of course there was a court case, which was settled.

Some people have a death wish and then are surprised when it's granted.

Very true. Then the family of the terminally stupid begins filing lawsuits.

I started this thread to give people something to think about. Things are not always as they seem and when something happens, it will not be pleasant.

I would have shot this guy the first time he took a stance, the officers there used restraint.

Still I wonder what would have happened if there had not been dash cameras showing the events. Even with them, there is an uproar that got a police chief to retire, the officers are having to deal with lawsuits as individuals, the media brings this up and hurts the image of the city and much more. If the dashcam was not there, the officers would have likely went to jail.

A similar incident, but the elderly man did have a gun, took place 60 miles from here last year. No dashcam but suddenly there were 31 witnesses that saw two officers shoot the old man down. Of course the man's gun was found along with a lot more evidence and they were cleared by the DOJ, FBI and their own dept. Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton is still coming to town promoting their views.

Think what an individual would be going through as a civilian.

...yes...!

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C & L

This fellow is going to get shot. He may not have a gun, but his movements would be viewed as a threat by almost anyone.

Yes, I would shoot. The biggest problem with having to hesitate so long these days, is that most people are not only weighing a human life, they are also weighing litigation. It's a damned shame that it's come down to the fact that you also have to worry about losing everything you own as well as your life while you are trying to defend it.

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MARK

Without hesitation, Yes.

Based on what I can see in the picture- undoubtedly.

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SWCA #1917

I'm familiar with this. IIRC, the media played it heavily and the officers involved were portrayed poorly. I believe the officers were correct in their actions. My greatest hope is that the results of this incident does not make the officers involved question themselves should they face similar incidents in the future.

I don't think that is a yes or no answer; however; if I felt my life or that of my partner was in danger than YES! That is when the use of deadly physical force is justified.

Come on Sip... It's obvious he's isoscoles texting...

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Centennial Every Day

With half a second to assess, YES

Yes, but if they knew he was "intoxicated" before the incident occured he prolly couldn't have hit anything, even with a cell phone. I can hold a 12 pack just fine, but 1 or 2 beers and I can't hit anything. But when your life or the life of a partner is on the line you must act quickly. How stupid was that dude anyway?
gordon

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better have that checked

The reason for the guy running was not known. He was in a Cadillac belonging to his girlfriend. They were having some domestic problems. His being intoxicated was not known until after the shooting. Of course, he had spoken of suicide prior to this incident and had other problems in life that he was not wanting to deal with.

Had it been a real cell phone gun, he would have had three shots and at close range would have been hard pressed to miss.

This was a take the shot situation for sure.

Yes...given only a split second to decide.Shame on him for coming out that way.

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Joshua 1:9
82nd Airborne

Yep.

WC

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.357 Magnum - 8 Times

Yes. While I would have agonized "after the fact", at the time, with the situation as described, my partner would not have had to worry; I would have fired until the threat was over.

Doc

Now view this site and see if you would hesitate in shooting.

Michael Finney's Consumer Blog: A gun disguised as a cell phone?!

Based solely on the information provided, yes.

But that is the problem with this snap decision is the officers had more information, maybe not a whole lot more but the devil is always in the details.

Trust me I know this well.

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I am a sheep dog!
1601 (ret)

Not even close . I would empty my weapon into that creep, watching for reaction , reload and fire until the I could tell the threat was neutralized . .

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Idaho , Elmer and Milt

I would fire for effect.

As he walked away he swung around to his left again and aimed it at one of the officers. That is when they shot him. I would have shot him too.

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I drank what? - Socrates

Yes I would warn him and then shoot.

He would be gettin a dirt nap if I was the cop.

From his body language HE THINKS it's a gun I have to react the same way. RULE#1 my partner and I go home to our families at the end of shift (unless I have to sacrifice myself for the life of an innocent... part of the job)