.38 Spl +P+ What do you think?

[Gunsmithattheguncloset]

Esteemed Forum Members,

My carry piece is a Model 19-4 2.5"bbl round butt with a tyler T grip and factory round butt stocks. Magnum loads (hornady 158g hollow points) can be......well a bit on the stout side, in this revolving hand cannon. So I carry (most of the time) .38 Special 147, Federal Hydra-Shok's. I love the 38spl cartridge but I also know that there are a lot of good guys and bad guys no longer breathing on this planet because of the 38spl. Sometimes I hear this little voice that says....tonight you should load magnums, so I rotate the ammo and grab my magnum loaded speed loaders. So what is your opinion? Is +P+ worth carrying or is it all smoke and mirrors? I have read where +p's are 10% over pressure and +P+'s are 25% over pressured. Is there anything to that? Would you carry +P+'s in your 357 snubby?

Thanks
Trey

[photoman]

Back when I carried a 2.5" Model 66, I loaded it with 125gr .357 magnum Gold Dots.

I've shot many of the +P+ Federal loads in my Model 64's. They are VERY accurate. I do think there are better bullet designs on the market today.

[Erich]

There's certainly no reason why your .357 snub would have issues with .38 +P+. (Forget that nonsense you've heard about pressure - SAAMI has specs for .38 +P and does not have any such specs for +P+ - Google it if you want more info.)

I agree with Photoman44 that there are probably better rounds available for your gun. That said, I have a speedloader full of the 147-gr +P+ Hydrashoks in my pocket as I type this . . . haven't bothered to replace the load because I doubt it's worth my trouble.

Anyhow, I tend to carry .357 Mag 145-gr STHPs for people-use in my K-357s, but I wouldn't freak out if I were only carrying a heavy .38 +P load. Pinpoint accuracy and quick follow-up shots are likely more important considerations than energy and expansion.

[OKFC05]

As Erich says, there is no pressure spec for +P+, so they are whatever the manufacturer chooses.

The Speer .357 short barrel magnum is about as controllable as the Federal +P+ and has a better bullet, IMHO.

[pete950]

What ever you shoot most accurately!!!

[18DAI]

We were issued some Winchester Ranger 110 grain 38+P+ some years back. The "Treasury load" it was referred to as.

They cautioned us at the time NOT to use this in anything but 357 Magnum revolvers. Had something to that effect on the box as well, IIRC.

A lot of flash and boom, shot high in my K-frames. Never saw any advantage over standard 38+P, for me. Regards 18DAI.

[flop-shank]

As OKFC05 mentioned, there are medium velocity .357 loads, such as the Speer SB .357 and the Remington Golden Sabre. Think of them as .38+P+ loads packaged in a .357 case. I haven't tested the Golden Sabre, but with the Speer load you will get more power, more reliable expansion and a bonded bullet without all of the flash and recoil of full power .357s.

I suggest that you pick a load that fits your needs, get good with it and stop worrying about it.

[Gunsmithattheguncloset]

There are just a lot of things that I have been pondering recently regarding this topic. I have never seen a cracked forcing cone in person, haveing said that I have read about them. I have practiced a good bit with the 147g hydra-shoks and at 10 yards can put all six rounds in the 9 ring or less rapid fire, slow aimed fire will make one big hole. I just worry (albeit not often) that the 38spl +P+ may not be what I need. I don't want the over penetration of the full magnum round but conversly I don't want the anemic performance of the 158g LRN 38spl.

I have tried the golden sabers, i like them they are wicked rounds lots of flash and lots of noise, and lots of heat built up on the gun...but i am not sure what the down range damage would be if loosed into an assailant. The only one that I have ever recovered only partially opened on impact.

I have only been involved in one personal defense situation (it involved drawing my weapon but thank God, I didn't have to fire it) and that was a Walther PPK in .32 acp with Winchester Silvertips.

Photoman44....you fire +P+'s in your model 64? I have a 64-3. How does it hold up to the +P+ round?

Trey

[Gunsmithattheguncloset]

I have shot some of the 158g copper washed lead semi wadcutter that my dad carried on the MHP. Even in his model 66 (4 inch) they will jar your teeth loose (Winchester Super X 158g Copperwashed lead semi wadcutters) These in my opinion are evil and were reputed at the time to crack engine blocks. This was the standard 357 magnum load the MHP carried from 1938 to 1996 when the MHP discontuned issuing revolvers. That is the 357 load that i grew up shooting. So you guys who mentioned medium velocity magnums...well that is a new term to me. Which manufacturers should I look into?

Trey

[Gunsmithattheguncloset]

Thank you Flop-shank!

[flop-shank]

You're most welcome, sir!

As far as penetration goes, a well designed, modern .357 JHP cartridge is no more likely to overpenetrate anymore than a .38+P. The extra velocity will generally result in a larger expanded diameter which puts on the "brakes" harder, or fragmentation combined with expansion which means weight loss, less momentum and similarly reduced penetration.

I test ammunition in a ballistic gel simulant called Perma-Gel. There is a thread in the ammo forum called Perma-Gel Test Results. It contains tests of various .38+P and .357 loads that I think you will find of interest, as well as links to other sites with 10% gel tests results.

[moxie]

An alternative is to load the first 2 chambers with 125+P and the rest with 125 Mag. I've had very good results with the Golden Saber +P and the mag in several different guns.

[imjin138]

Right now I am using Winchester 147 grn+P+ HP, I always used 158 GRN semi WC hp +P+ but am unable to find them. I keep them in my 66 and now my 19. We as department issued them when we used Model 66.

[photoman]

Originally Posted by Gunsmithattheguncloset

Photoman44....you fire +P+'s in your model 64? I have a 64-3. How does it hold up to the +P+ round?

Trey

I bought a whole truckload of the Federal +P+ HS load back when Cheaper Than Dirt was selling them for ~$18 a box of 50. I have one favorite 4" Model 64 that has about 500 rounds or so through it with no problems. I really don't think that load is all that hot. Never seen any chrono info but I would guess it's probably around 900-1000 fps? The load is very, very accurate in my favorite Model 64.

[tpd223]

In a magnum at full power I'd carry either Winchester, Remington or Federal standard 125gr JHPs, or the 130 Federal Hydrashock. In full power loads the Gold Dot is a very high penetration load.

The DPX is also a good choice, and the Silvertip is pretty decent as well.

In the mid-range .357s I'd go with the 135gr Gold Dot, then the Remington Golden Saber.

In .38 I'd pass on the lightweight +P+ stuff, they are actually pretty poor defensive loads.
I'd go with the 135gr Gold Dot, the DPX, Buffalo Bore LSWCHP or WC, or the Remington 158gr LSWCHP.

[SouthPark]

I have shot the RP golden sabre in my K frame and it is very mild for 357 so there is no need for +P 38s. I think hot magnum loads discourage practice and I believe in practicing a lot with what you carry. I'd say buy a box of this and that and see what works for you as far as ability to empty the cylinder with accuracy and some speed. the best bullet in the world won't work with misses.

[cdr]

I've settled on two loads that I am extremely pleased with...

For .357 magnum I don't think you can do better than the Federal 357B 125gr. JHP load. For .38 spl, the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr. +P short barrel NYPD load has tremendous ballistics and has been adopted by numerous federal and local police agencies for this very reason. I recently switched from the old FBI load, 158 gr. SWCHP +P to the Speer in my J frame as the expansion reliability out of a 1 7/8" barrel is vastly improved.