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Old 08-13-2010, 06:33 PM
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Default Realistic handgun training for CCW

We have discussed the best handguns, ammo type and holsters combinations for our CCW needs but what about proper handgun training?, I am not talking about standing in front of your target at a known range, wearing the proper eye and hearing protection, aim at your target and fire a well placed round, perhaps a quick follow up shot every now and then ( your mind is telling you, ammo is expensive, don't waste it).
Now I have seen totally the opposite too, a shooter blasting away at a large bad guy type target as fast as he can empty his handgun with zero results.
I am not pretending to be an expert on the subject but consider myself a serious "student" of this subject.
How many of us can afford to attend one of the top shooting schools in the country to get the proper training?, a week off from work, the cost of travel, food, lodging, car rental, the actual cost of the school and at least 1,500 round of premium ammo per class (the top notch schools will not allow you to use second rate ammo), also, in order to attend an advanced course (your ultimate goal) you need to graduate from their beginner/intermediate course (another week long class and more expenses).
Maybe these requirements are too extreme for the average citizen that carries concealed but what about the responsibilities of carrying concealed?, My son is going to apply for his permit but not before he gets the proper training and I feel that he is ready.
In the real world it is very hard to receive this type of professional training, but I do believe that we can try to make our shooting sessions more realistic, you'll be surprised what is like to fire your snubby 357 magnum without hearing protection but in the real world that is what's going to happen and you need to experience that and keep focused and handle the situation, at least once..yes, I am deaf from too many years of "realistic" type shooting and actual shooting conditions as a Marine.
Any comments? suggestions? I do enjoy learning from others.
Semper Fi

Last edited by f8 crusader; 08-13-2010 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 08-13-2010, 07:26 PM
Skeeziks Skeeziks is offline
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I agree with everything except not wearing any protection for the hearing and eyes.
I cannot stress this enough. Do Not subject your son to gun fire without the proper hearing & eye protection.

Be safe....
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Old 08-13-2010, 08:36 PM
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I agree with everything except not wearing any protection for the hearing and eyes.
I cannot stress this enough. Do Not subject your son to gun fire without the proper hearing & eye protection.

Be safe....
No sir, by no means will I allow that, I always insist in wearing the proper protection, what I am saying is that at some point. at least once, a person needs to experience what is like to hear the report of the weapon they are using.
It's best to find out what it feels like while in a training enviroment instead of an actual shooting situation.
But then I could be wrong.
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Old 08-13-2010, 08:50 PM
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No sir, by no means will I allow that, I always insist in wearing the proper protection, what I am saying is that at some point. at least once, a person needs to experience what is like to hear the report of the weapon they are using.
It's best to find out what it feels like while in a training enviroment instead of an actual shooting situation.
But then I could be wrong.
I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure how valid it is. Most people that have been in actual shootings have stated they didn't even notice the noise or blast from their gun.

Regarding training, I attended a eight hour Suarez course on point shooting that cost $100 and it was worth every penny. Shooting on a range that permits shooting and moving is not only good practice, but lots of fun too!
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Old 08-13-2010, 09:24 PM
Skeeziks Skeeziks is offline
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what I am saying is that at some point. at least once, a person needs to experience what is like to hear the report of the weapon they are using. But then I could be wrong.
No, you're right.... I agree with that. I just misunderstood.

Back to your main point...I always practice real-world "tactical-type" shooting scenarios. I started this years ago when the thought of tacking up a bullseye and shooting at it from a stationary position at a given distance was about as thrilling as watching paint dry. I did it to make shooting more fun.
I believe it's our responsibility as CWP holders to practice more than just our marksmanship. Not everyone knows that the first thing you should do when the bad guy's trying to kill you is Not to try and draw your weapon.... Your first move is to take cover.

Yes, I completely agree with your thoughts on this. You brought up a very important point.
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Old 08-13-2010, 10:26 PM
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One point I forgot to mention, is that once you learn a technique that works for you from someone that knows what he is talking about, stick to it and practice, practice until you commit it to muscle memory, you will gain a ton of confidence.
Not everything that you learn in those school will apply to your needs, we attended several of the top schools and used part of what they taught, we compiled the best techniques from each one and developed a training curriculum to fit the needs of the Marine Corps, to keep marines going to high risk areas safe.
But what's important is not to allow your hard earned training to deteriorate by not practicing.
I do that every Sunday.
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Old 08-13-2010, 11:47 PM
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I have been extremely fortunate to have attended several advanced classes taught by several different instructors. Some formal, some not so formal.

I've learned much in the past 30 or so years. But I ain't no expert. Some instructors are decent and some not so. Attend as much training as you can and take what you believe works best for you and practice it.

Todays training is extrememly convoluted. It's hard to know who's method or which method is best. And there seem to be experts everywhere. Those that say "my way is best" or carry this caliber or you'll be sorry" are the one's you need to stay away from.

Only you know what works for you. Serious students of the use of deadly force never stop searching and learning. Above all, there is no substitute for quality training and even more practice. There are many good videos to buy. And there are many things you can do at home.


The commitment is yours and yours alone.
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Old 08-14-2010, 07:52 AM
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There's a guy that does training out in Newport News. I took my FL CCW permit course from him at the Hampton gun show one year. I can't recall his name but maybe you can ask around or search.
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Old 08-14-2010, 10:57 AM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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Probably the most important training is to continually be aware of your surroundings and the people who inhabit them and act accordingly. Without that, the other stuff is useless. If you're really good at it, the other stuff isn't less important, but you lack the need to demonstrate the skill.

By the way, the 1500 round stuff is for "shooting schools". The good defensive schools don't need that much. IIRC, LFI-1 was/is a suggested 500 rounds. I didn't need that amount, some others did.

Last edited by WR Moore; 08-14-2010 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 08-14-2010, 11:23 AM
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Probably the most important training is to continually be aware of your surroundings and the people who inhabit them and act accordingly. Without that, the other stuff is useless. If you're really good at it, the other stuff isn't less important, but you lack the need to demonstrate the skill.

By the way, the 1500 round stuff is for "shooting schools". The good defensive schools don't need that much. IIRC, LFI-1 was/is a suggested 500 rounds. I didn't need that amount, some others did.
The 1.5 k of ammo was for the Ray Chapman advanced instructor course, you did a lot of shooting, you also got a lot of trigger time to practice after class, to graduate from this course, you had to shoot the old Bianchi Cup match course (it was held there every year) and shoot an expert rating, we shot this course with 1911's
Ray was the master and the best. he also trained Navy SEALS back then.

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Old 08-14-2010, 04:33 PM
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The damning part of it is that most CCW courses dont seem to address or give very little attention to the period of time between perception of threat outside of justifiable range (7 yards in my state) and the point at which that the threat is resolved by peacefully or by force. The course emphasis seems to be on a threat within 7 yards with a perpetrator bearing a visible weapon.

Reality in our area is that criminals have learned not to draw their weapon until the last second and then frequently shoot the victim in the head. By the time the weapon is visible, there is no time to draw and few if any option for escape. If the victim warns the perpatrator away, he may be charged with assault. If the victim allows the perpetrator inside of 7 yards, he will likely either end up dead or forced to shoot. I havent heard of anyone addressing this type of situation, which is now very common. I would like to know just what is expected of you in that type of situation. Is there a course addressing this?
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Old 08-14-2010, 04:48 PM
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The damning part of it is that most CCW courses dont seem to address or give very little attention to the period of time between perception of threat outside of justifiable range (7 yards in my state) and the point at which that the threat is resolved by peacefully or by force. The course emphasis seems to be on a threat within 7 yards with a perpetrator bearing a visible weapon.

Reality in our area is that criminals have learned not to draw their weapon until the last second and then frequently shoot the victim in the head. By the time the weapon is visible, there is no time to draw and few if any option for escape. If the victim warns the perpatrator away, he may be charged with assault. If the victim allows the perpetrator inside of 7 yards, he will likely either end up dead or forced to shoot. I havent heard of anyone addressing this type of situation, which is now very common. I would like to know just what is expected of you in that type of situation. Is there a course addressing this?
Is that an actual statute in your state? What state? Have never hear of a "justifiable range" anywhere; certainly not one quantified.

Similarly, have never heard of anyone being charged with warning away one who threatens death/serious bodily harm.

Motre info, please. Statute(s) citation would be useful.

Be safe.
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Old 08-14-2010, 05:48 PM
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The damning part of it is that most CCW courses dont seem to address or give very little attention to the period of time between perception of threat outside of justifiable range (7 yards in my state) and the point at which that the threat is resolved by peacefully or by force. The course emphasis seems to be on a threat within 7 yards with a perpetrator bearing a visible weapon.

Reality in our area is that criminals have learned not to draw their weapon until the last second and then frequently shoot the victim in the head. By the time the weapon is visible, there is no time to draw and few if any option for escape. If the victim warns the perpatrator away, he may be charged with assault. If the victim allows the perpetrator inside of 7 yards, he will likely either end up dead or forced to shoot. I havent heard of anyone addressing this type of situation, which is now very common. I would like to know just what is expected of you in that type of situation. Is there a course addressing this?

Awarness and mindset will most often prevent these type of "sneak attacks".

When people I don't know get that close to me I don't take my eyes off them. I don't care if they like it or not. I also instinctively know where cover is and how to reach it quickly.

The one thing that is not taught or practiced enough is the ability to fend off an attack with your off hand, drawing and then firing with the other hand at close range.

To me, that is one of the important things I concentrate on at the range because it is most likely what will happen.

To practice entirely with two hands at 7, 10, 15 yards, etc.... Is like wishing upon a star.

It isn't realistic.
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Old 08-14-2010, 05:49 PM
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Surveyor: Your situation has been hashed over in many advanced tactical classes that I have either attended or was giving. The best solution IMHO that was advanced is to: IF your situational awareness tells you that someone in your vicinity MIGHT be a threat; move to the best tactical position available to you at that time and place; move any others with you to the best defensive position for them; unobtrusively draw your handgun and conceal it behind your hip; watch the potential threat person very closely; have your other people watching for other potential threat people while keeping you informed of same; when the potential threat person is within 20 to 25 ft. from you verbally order him to STOP and not to come any nearer; IF that person stops, warn them to leave; IF that person does not stop, bring your handgun to your preferred two handed hold at a 'ready' position; watch that person's hands very closely; warn that person again to STOP; If complied with tell that person to leave NOW; any display of any weapon whatsoever, shoot. Now be the first to call the local Police. If the threat person leaves before seeing your handgun, just unobtrusively re-holster ........... Big Cholla
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Old 08-14-2010, 06:06 PM
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Awarness and mindset will most often prevent these type of "sneak attacks".

When people I don't know get that close to me I don't take my eyes off them. ...

...To me, that is one of the important things I concentrate on at the range because it is most likely what will happen.

To practice entirely with two hands at 7, 10, 15 yards, etc.... Is like wishing upon a star. (emphasis added)

It isn't realistic.
Good point. This was from my recent post regarding my training/quals last month.

Day course was 5 strong hand, 5 weak hand; 3 yard line.
5 strong supported, 5 weak supported; 7 yards.
5 kneeling, strong supported; 15 yards.
5 standing, strong supported; 25 yards.

"Night" was via wearing welders goggles. Believe me, they work.
5 strong hand, 5 weak hand, 2 weak hand; 3 yards.
2 strong hand, 5 strong supported, 5 weak supported; 7 yards.
3 kneeling, strong supported, 3 standing, strong supported; 15 yards



And, don't think the bad guy(s) will be merely standing around awaiting your decision re: "what to do."

Be safe.
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Old 08-14-2010, 07:03 PM
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Expecting a state-mandated CHL course to teach defense pistol tactics is absurd. At best, the firing is a safety check, and the instructor may throw in some rudiments.

On the other hand the NRA defense courses are specifically directed toward starting with the rudiments and advancing to drawing from a holster, moving, using cover, etc. The courses are not all that expensive and are supposed to stick to the nationally-approved curriculum.
After doing these, THEN people are ready to go to the "experts" course, where you shoot hundereds of rounds and get put through the grinder.
People who go to the advanced courses before they learn any of the basics come back very impressed with what they SAW, but usually can't do any of it. Money wasted, IMHO.

My solution has been to combine the state CHL course with the first NRA defense course, for a discount package deal. I recommend they also take the scond NRA defense course, but most don't. I also recommend they start attending IDPA matches to practice their gun handling, but again most don't.

At least when they leave with their CHL state certificate and the certificate for the first NRA defense course, they are better off than had they only shot the state safety check.
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Old 08-14-2010, 09:10 PM
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Is that an actual statute in your state? What state? Have never hear of a "justifiable range" anywhere; certainly not one quantified.

Similarly, have never heard of anyone being charged with warning away one who threatens death/serious bodily harm.

Motre info, please. Statute(s) citation would be useful.

Be safe.
In the state of Louisiana, you must be within 7 yards (21 feet) for a shooting to be considered justified- according to every instructor I have discussed this with.

If the person sees you place your hand on your gun or if you unholster it and it becomes visible, you are threatening the person with a gun- according to every instructor I have discussed this with.

The way it is described by these instructors, the assailant walks up to you and you do not draw until he displays a weapon. It comes off like a point blank OK Corral with you yelling at the guy till he is right next to you, where you have very few options.

I have been through the situation described first hand. My solution has been to yell, "Halt! Come no closer! You have no business with me! Leave me alone!" The guy keeps coming, looking me straight in the eye. I move behind my car and he continues coming until I place my hand on the concealed weapon, at which point he takes a hard left turn and keeps on going. The problem is that at no point do these guys let you know that they have a weapon until they use it on you. You simply dont know anything other than you are being approached in a vacant parking lot by an agressive looking young male you have never seen before at midnight, looking you straight in the eye, smoking what appears to be a crack pipe. My solution has been that both he and I go home safe if at all possible.

One local guy followed the rules as specified by instructors. The perp got in too close, hit the man in the head with a gun, at which point the victim pulled his gun and shot the perp 5 times in the heart. Yeah, he was justified in Court, but I still say that if he warned the guy off at a reasonable distance, there probably would not have been a shooting. The closer the perp, the fewer your options. I dont want them that close. I want them to keep their distance and go on about their business.

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Old 08-14-2010, 10:05 PM
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Regarding training, I attended a eight hour Suarez course on point shooting that cost $100 and it was worth every penny. Shooting on a range that permits shooting and moving is not only good practice, but lots of fun too!
+1. Good stuff.
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Old 08-14-2010, 10:10 PM
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The flip side of the coin is that:
1. Bothyou and he are in a public place and he has the right to be wherever he wants.
2. He might not understand you warnings.
3. He might be mad at you for yelling at him and want to beat the daylights out of you for telling him where not to go.
4.He might not be armed.
5. He might be bumming at match.

All you have is your perception that the guy is a threat and he has no business with you.

The guy who continues walking toward me despite warnings, use of obsticles, retreat, hand on weapon, whatever is available, forcing the situation on you is the guy who REALLY SCARES ME. This situation scares me because if you shoot, you do so with incomplete knowledge; if you dont, you could end up dead like so many who are shot in the head at close range.

That is why Im looking for an advanced CCW course that will resolve questions like this.
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Old 08-14-2010, 10:23 PM
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I wear the eye's and ears when I shoot but I have shot without the ears in Iraq and WOW - that sucker is LOUD.

I've also fired my handgun at home, outside range once to see how loud it is and it's pretty loud.

I have heard that in a real shooting situation that it's been said sometimes - maybe because the Adrenalin is pumping - it doesn't sound so loud.
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Old 08-15-2010, 08:16 AM
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You will react how you train/practice. That is a given. It is seen everyday in all fields where things get hairy. If you stand still and shoot all the time that is most likely what you will do if you get in a real situation. I won't go into mind set and everything else. You ask about the shooting part. Practice, practice, practice. If you use a timer to start when the buzzer goes off start moving. Draw and engage the target/s while moving. Learn to shoot on the move. Practice shooting on the move. Try move towards cover if possible. Practice moving backwards at a 45 degree angle from the attacker or sideways. Move to cover if available. But distance from the attacker gives you time and time is what you need to Orientate, Observe, Decide and Act. The faster you do that the better chance you have to survive. When it comes to a gun battle the person who connects first with a round usually wins. Usually but not all the time. But you want to hit the bad guy and you don't want to get hit. Moving gives you the best odds.

There are dozens if not hundreds of books written about this. Covering it all on a chat forum is impossible. Read and read some more. Practice and then Practice more and more and more. You can practice with a 22 as it is cheaper to shoot and you will practice more. 22 are great practice firearms and the whole deal is to practice. Then move up to your carry gun. You can learn as much about shoot with a 22 as you can with a 45. The only thing different is the recoil.
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Old 08-15-2010, 01:42 PM
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I am one of those who have actually used a gun to stop a threat. Both night time and day time. I can tell you this, aiming is rarely accomplished. Speed of draw was necessary, hip shooting is necessary and probably should be trained. At night you notice the flash, but the sound is non existent....Everything is in slow motion but happening at the speed of light and to understand that you have to be there. For the average CCW person, familarity with his weapon, practice taking it from its hiding spot, pointing at a target and dry firing are good techniques to practice.....beyond that, going to the range and killing paper targets is good.....A "Hogans Ally" training facility would be nice but suits law enforcement better than the average citizen....being prepared to shoot and shooting when necessary complete the picture. My humble opinion only....
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Old 08-15-2010, 05:30 PM
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Reality in our area is that criminals have learned not to draw their weapon until the last second and then frequently shoot the victim in the head. By the time the weapon is visible, there is no time to draw and few if any option for escape. If the victim warns the perpatrator away, he may be charged with assault. If the victim allows the perpetrator inside of 7 yards, he will likely either end up dead or forced to shoot. I havent heard of anyone addressing this type of situation, which is now very common. I would like to know just what is expected of you in that type of situation. Is there a course addressing this?

Suarez International Force On Force Gunfighting is the class you're looking for.
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Old 08-15-2010, 11:30 PM
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Thanks, I will look them up. Do you have a website?

From what I have seen, many courses focus entirely upon tactics once the shooting starts. My example points out that what happens before the shooting starts may actually be more important when it comes time to go to Court. The criminals know that if they can get in close due to the element of doubt and legal rules of engagement, they can shoot or stab you at face to face range. This is what I believe is causing face to face OK Corrales. The key is to resolve the situation before it becomes very very up close. The greater the distance the better, the less likely shots to be fired. But how to do so without getting charged with assault. As I understand it right now, the rules of engagement are that the criminal never knows that you are armed until you actually fire. I think thats nuts. If the very act of warning the guy away is assault, because you place him in fear, what reason does he have not to continue his pursuit of you? There are times when I think its better to carry pepper spray or a taser rather than a gun. At least you can hose him down with pepper spray without too much fear of prosecution.
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Old 08-16-2010, 12:25 AM
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Do not limit yourself to one instructor or style of training.

There are many good instructors out there and some not. They took what they learned from someone or somewhere else and incorporated it into their teach style and content. It's not one size fits all and it shouldn't be.

Take several different classes when you can. Then use what works best for you.

Mas Ayoobs Lethal Force Institute, Tom Givens, Dave Spaulding, Rob Pincus, Clint Smith, and a few others are some of the most notable and respected instructors in the business.

To avoid a fight I won't use names but there is one instructor in particular that I don't care for. He seems very full of himself and seems to talk a lot of ****. I've read his articles and perused his forum. I'm not impressed.

So before taking any recommendations when seeking quality instruction, do your homework.
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Old 08-16-2010, 12:32 AM
Oscar Zulu Oscar Zulu is offline
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surveyvor47, I believe hosing someone down with pepper spray or a taser is both assualt and battery. Good luch with that one.
OZ
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Old 08-16-2010, 03:02 PM
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My opinion on the subject is that you don't necessarily have to go across the country, take a week off of work, and spend thousands of dollars to get quality, high-level training. Here in my home state of Missouri, there are a number of professional instructors that provide advanced defensive training to the armed citizen. Everything from the CCW Level 2 and NRA Personal Protection courses that I teach, all the way to specialized combatives training offered by other instructors, as well as some Suarez International classes taught by a local Suarez affiliate instructor. You can also find one-time courses from folks like Randy Cane and Rob Pincus in your area on occasion that are sponsored by local clubs or ranges.

The main thing is that you exercise some due diligence when selecting an instructor to take training with and spend your hard earned money on. As has been pointed out in this thread, not all instructors are created equal. Ask for references and actually CHECK THOSE REFERENCES before filling out the enrollment form. If an instructor is unwilling to provide references or has a "holier than thou" attitude over the phone or by email, move on and find yourself a different instructor. Any instructor worth his/her salt should be happy to provide references and take some time to answer any questions you have BEFORE you send them your money. If an instructor's references don't check out, won't return your calls, or seem "wishy washy", again, move on and find a different instructor. You don't want to end up in a class where they don't have the utmost regard for your safety and learning experience.

Also, keep the courses you take relevant to your needs. While an "urban fighting rifle" course might sound like fun, how likely is it that you, an armed citizen, are ever going to walk the streets with an AR strapped over your shoulder? Your money would probably be better spent on a defensive handgun course of some variety, rather than a rifle course. Of course, only you can decide what your needs are.

Once you have decided on an instructor and course, go into it with an open mind. While you may not agree with everything the instructor says, or may have been taught something in the past differently than this instructor does it, you are paying this person to teach you, so do your very best to try it "his way" while you are in his class. If you later discover that a particular technique doesn't work for you, you can always discard it, and you never know, you just might find that you have learned a better way of doing something. Also, be sure to take plenty of notes, take pictures (if allowed), and ask questions until you have a complete understanding of the answers. Remember, you are paying this person for his/her knowledge. You might as well soak up as much as possible while you are there.

I think a lot of people get "hung up" on the idea that they have to take training with a "big name" instructor in order to receive good training. While there certainly is nothing wrong with seeking out that kind of training if you have the time and resources, if you'll exercise some due diligence, you can generally find very good training much closer to home and at a very reasonable price.
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Old 08-16-2010, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscar Zulu View Post
surveyvor47, I believe hosing someone down with pepper spray or a taser is both assualt and battery. Good luch with that one.
OZ
Years ago, I actually did hose a guy down with the old Mace. A man was beating a woman to death, trying to crack her head open like a coconut in the middle of the street, in front of stopped traffic, with at least 50 witnesses. I went over to stop it with nothing more than a can of Mace and steel toed shoes. The guy jumped up and I though was going to shoot me. I sprayed him in the face and eyes. At first he laughed, but about 10 seconds later, it took effect and he ran off. Longest 10 seconds of my life. The traffic was blaring horns as I tried to help the woman. I finally picked her up in my arms and put her in my car and asked people to call police and an ambulance. At least 6 police cars were visible 2 blocks away, cops in a local bar as usual. When witnesses asked for help, they refused, continuing their drinks and meals. In fact, Im sure they saw the whole incident. A cruiser finally showed up 30 minutes later. A police lieutenant interviewed at least 30 people and informed me that I was mad because the man was beating a woman. He and I then went looking for him, but we never found him. He said that he "never has a problem when a citizen maces a * hole". The guy soon afterward murdered (beat to death) a 70 year old man for his ATM card and got his picture taken when he used the card. He is spending the rest of his life in prision. His method is to beat his victim to death, in front of witnesses, even large crowds, stopping traffic to do so.

When I lived in the city, I went through 3 successful armed robberies and at least 22 more attempted robberies, none of which were successful, because I resisted each and every time- unarmed. I did my very best to put each armed robber in fear, using anything and everything at my disposal as a weapon. I will never allow a man to stick a gun in my face again. Whomever decided that you can defend yourself against an armed attacker without putting him in fear needs a realtity check. Most will run when they get determined resistance. They count on people not resisting and frequently shoot or stab their victim to death.
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Old 08-16-2010, 07:51 PM
The Big D The Big D is offline
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[QUOTE=surveyor47;135584228]... legal rules of engagement, ... how to do so without getting charged with assault. As I understand it right now, the rules of engagement are that the criminal never knows that you are armed until you actually fire. I think thats nuts. If the very act of warning the guy away is assault, because you place him in fear, what reason does he have not to continue his pursuit of you? .../QUOTE]

Surveyor, I think you are getting some really, really, really bad advice.

In my experience, there are no such things as quantified rules of engagement, quantified distances wherein you can shoot/don't shoot, or similar.

I suggest you study this matter anew...and get some new instructors who offer other than what you have been presented.

Be safe.

PS:

If anyone/anywhere can prove there is a statute/law/ordinance that quantifies "shooting space" I will buy him/her a keg of his/her choice. Truth!!!
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Old 08-16-2010, 08:37 PM
The Big D The Big D is offline
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Quote:
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...
When I lived in the city, I went through 3 successful armed robberies and at least 22 more attempted robberies, none of which were successful, ...
Say what????
YOU HAVE BEEN THE VICTIM OF AN ARMED ROBBERY/ATTEMPTED ARMED ROBBERY TWENTY-FIVE (25) TIMES?????

If you have not already, I suggest you move or make yourself less "available" as a victim.

Be safe.
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Old 08-16-2010, 10:51 PM
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I got divorced 16 years ago, got "cleaned out" and moved into what I could afford, which was not much. It took me 10 years to get clear of that divorce judgement. I found out what it is like to live in a crime ridden city and have long since moved to the suburbs. Yeah, 25 armed robberies in 10 years. That is what lots of people in the city are having to put up with. When people are literally fighting off criminals on a daily basis, the ivory tower solutions of what they should and should not do are obviously out of touch. I think some prosecutors need a little street level experience.
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  #32  
Old 08-16-2010, 11:01 PM
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I discussed much of my thoughts in my thread 'Hangunning 101'. Some thoughts to add here; a lot can be done at no cost that would go a long way towards being prepared. Learning to load quickly, be it a speed loader or magazine. Try to put yourself under some duress, do it in dim light, do in while laying down in off positions, do it with your off-hand etc. Look for the positions of cover in and around your home. If you live in a bad area, what are the hot spots to avoid if possible? What is the best route to take home? What is the safest way to approach your own front door? Practice the 'what if' game ahead of time so you're not caught flat-footed.

Don't overload yourself with packages that interfere with your ability to move to cover or draw a firearm or fend off an attack with H2H skills.

Practice clearing malfunctions using saftey (non-firing) rounds.

Keep your firearm in good repair.

Talk with your partner/spouse/friends/family that may be with you so they have an understanding of what to do if something happens.

Don't walk around with your head up your....um, sleeve

The range is one thing, and important. But many more important things can be trained for without ever going to the range. Indeed, some things can't be trained for at the range i.e. firing angles in your house (not shooting them of course, but seeing where they are in full and in dim light).

Just points to ponder.
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Old 08-17-2010, 07:12 PM
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Part of my point is that too many CCW courses are oriented strictly toward shooting, when that should be the last option, not the first. I have managed to defeat 22 attempted armed robberies without firing a shot or killing anyone. When you have a crime ridden city and a corrupt DA (who got caught with a cop killer in his bedroom closet), you are having to deal with this stuff on a dail basis, not once in a lifetime. The best outcome is for both the perpetrator and intended victim to walk away unharmed. That isnt always possible, but it is a heck of a lot less trouble than dealing with cops, prosecutors and lawyers.

What gets me is this proposition that you are not supposed to scare someone who is attempting to rob you or worse! What planet!?? Its OK for a criminal to scare the victim half to death, but if the intended victim puts the fear of God into a criminal, the victim is now a criminal. Unbelievable.

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Old 08-17-2010, 08:31 PM
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As I offered yesterday, Surveyor, it appears you are getting horrendously bad advice/training. Perhaps you should read postings and reply thereto. Seriously!!! Re-read posts 12 and 29, please. You did try to reply to 12 but could not explain/support the 7 yard "law" you suggested exists. You truly do need some training by folks who know what they are doing. Last I will say...

Be safe.

Last edited by The Big D; 08-17-2010 at 08:38 PM.
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  #35  
Old 08-17-2010, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surveyor47 View Post
Part of my point is that too many CCW courses are oriented strictly toward shooting, when that should be the last option, not the first. I have managed to defeat 22 attempted armed robberies without firing a shot or killing anyone. When you have a crime ridden city and a corrupt DA (who got caught with a cop killer in his bedroom closet), you are having to deal with this stuff on a dail basis, not once in a lifetime. The best outcome is for both the perpetrator and intended victim to walk away unharmed. That isnt always possible, but it is a heck of a lot less trouble than dealing with cops, prosecutors and lawyers.

What gets me is this proposition that you are not supposed to scare someone who is attempting to rob you or worse! What planet!?? Its OK for a criminal to scare the victim half to death, but if the intended victim puts the fear of God into a criminal, the victim is now a criminal. Unbelievable.
I'm not sure what state you are in, but I can pretty much guarantee it's not Missouri. I've never heard of any such laws in ANY state.
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Old 08-18-2010, 08:47 PM
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According to every instructor I have spoken to, court precident in the state of Louisiana is that shootings outside of 7 yards (killing range for a knife) are presumed to be unjustified. I do not have the case law.

According to several instructors I have spoken to, if you put someone in fear, including someone who is attempting to rob you, you have committed assault. The rule of thumb is that the weapon should never be visible until ready to fire. Some say that you can take a position where your hand is on the weapon but it is not displayed. However; some attorneys are now advising that even this can be considered assault and there have been cases where criminals have justified shooting their victims "for having gone for a gun, placing them in fear". YEAH REALLY! These same attorneys are advising holstering weapons in non traditional locations away from pockets or the hip- Thunderwear being a good example.

It seems that in the state of Louisiana, the criminals are "ahead of the curve". From what I understand, the type of crime that I am so very afraid of- where a criminal walks or runs up to you without displaying a weapon, defying warnings and your escape attempts- is being used fairly frequently. This is where understanding of state gun laws are absolutely critical- in fact life or death. This is the reason I want to find a course on Louisiana law that will tell me what I can or cannot do. For now, the best response I can think of is to de-escalate the situation if possible before resorting to lethal force. If after retreat, use of barriers, warnings and the guy continues, a good dose of pepper spray ought to slow him down. But even then, many now resort to sunglasses to protect their eyes. The gun should be the absolute last resort, but in this case, the criminal may be inches from your face when he produces the weapon, giving you virtually no time to respond. At best, you end up with a face to face OK Corrale, where he has the advantage. This is why I say that keeping them at a distance is so very critical. The closer he gets, the greater the criminals advantage. But then again, absent him drawing a weapon, how do you actually know that he is a criminal or that he intends to do your harm? All that you know is that he is behaving agressively and very strangely, placing you in fear of your life. Now, what happens if his intent is to beat you to death in the manner of that killer that I confronted years ago? You shoot a huge man in the act of committing murder, but he is unarmed- off to jail you go.

The problem with the gun thing is that violent crime is a way of life here, something we deal with daily. If you shoot the guy, it is very likely that the next time you have to deal with one of these idiots, you will still be in court with the last one. Thats the great thing about pepper spray, people dont hesitate to use it and you dont have to deal with a possible murder, man slaughter or wrongful death charge.

The point of disagreement that I have with some instructors is that I believe that their advice actually makes a shooting more likely rather than less likely, their primary focus being on "legally righteous". If you are having to deal with 1 or 2 armed robbers per year, you can "legally righteous" your way into bankruptcy or jail- not a practical solution.

Yes, I will re-read paragraphs. Thanks.
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Old 08-18-2010, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surveyor47 View Post
According to every instructor I have spoken to, court precident in the state of Louisiana is that shootings outside of 7 yards (killing range for a knife) are presumed to be unjustified. I do not have the case law.

According to several instructors I have spoken to, if you put someone in fear, including someone who is attempting to rob you, you have committed assault. The rule of thumb is that the weapon should never be visible until ready to fire. Some say that you can take a position where your hand is on the weapon but it is not displayed. However; some attorneys are now advising that even this can be considered assault and there have been cases where criminals have justified shooting their victims "for having gone for a gun, placing them in fear". YEAH REALLY! These same attorneys are advising holstering weapons in non traditional locations away from pockets or the hip- Thunderwear being a good example.

It seems that in the state of Louisiana, the criminals are "ahead of the curve". From what I understand, the type of crime that I am so very afraid of- where a criminal walks or runs up to you without displaying a weapon, defying warnings and your escape attempts- is being used fairly frequently. This is where understanding of state gun laws are absolutely critical- in fact life or death. This is the reason I want to find a course on Louisiana law that will tell me what I can or cannot do. For now, the best response I can think of is to de-escalate the situation if possible before resorting to lethal force. If after retreat, use of barriers, warnings and the guy continues, a good dose of pepper spray ought to slow him down. But even then, many now resort to sunglasses to protect their eyes. The gun should be the absolute last resort, but in this case, the criminal may be inches from your face when he produces the weapon, giving you virtually no time to respond. At best, you end up with a face to face OK Corrale, where he has the advantage. This is why I say that keeping them at a distance is so very critical. The closer he gets, the greater the criminals advantage. But then again, absent him drawing a weapon, how do you actually know that he is a criminal or that he intends to do your harm? All that you know is that he is behaving agressively and very strangely, placing you in fear of your life. Now, what happens if his intent is to beat you to death in the manner of that killer that I confronted years ago? You shoot a huge man in the act of committing murder, but he is unarmed- off to jail you go.

The problem with the gun thing is that violent crime is a way of life here, something we deal with daily. If you shoot the guy, it is very likely that the next time you have to deal with one of these idiots, you will still be in court with the last one. Thats the great thing about pepper spray, people dont hesitate to use it and you dont have to deal with a possible murder, man slaughter or wrongful death charge.

The point of disagreement that I have with some instructors is that I believe that their advice actually makes a shooting more likely rather than less likely, their primary focus being on "legally righteous". If you are having to deal with 1 or 2 armed robbers per year, you can "legally righteous" your way into bankruptcy or jail- not a practical solution.

Yes, I will re-read paragraphs. Thanks.
As someone who is intimately familiar with Missouri laws regarding the use of force and the use of deadly force, I can honestly say that I am NOT up to speed on the laws in LA. That said, most states have use of force laws that are fairly similar.

In Missouri, there is no "distance standard" that must be met. Pretty much anytime you are confronted with the threat of severe bodily injury or death, and you are not the initial aggressor, you have legal justification to use deadly force to defend yourself, regardless if the threat is 1 foot away, or 100 feet away. In addition, due to our Castle Doctrine, in Missouri, you also have legal justification to use deadly force against someone who unlawfully enters, attempts to unlawfully enter, or remains after unlawfully entering, any dwelling, residence, or vehicle that you lawfully occupy, and there is no "distance standard" that must be met in any of those cases either.

Yes, a firearm is a self-defense tool of last resort that should only be deployed when your other options have been exhausted. That said, at least in Missouri, there is no law that says the bad guy gets a "free shot" at you before you can use deadly force.
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  #38  
Old 08-19-2010, 02:39 AM
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Without discussing specific situations and specific senarios you will never know all the variables. Therein lies the rub.

I believe that 99% of situations can be dealt with by basic knowledge of your surroundings. By this I mean, trust your gut.
If its a bad situation, leave (if possible). If you are unable to leave, make eye contact with the percieved threat.
Many times they will divert or engage you at that time.
Looking away and hoping it just passes is a horrible tactic that gets sheep hurt or worse, killed.

There are 3 basic types of ppl in this world.
Wolves, Sheep, and Sheepdogs.
*Wolves - "badguys, wanting to prey on the weak and distractied".
*Sheep - "everyday ppl. won't run to help, and arn't looking for trouble".
Trying to live their lives and are somewhat unaware of threats and evil in the world" Many ppl are in this catagory.
*Sheepdogs - "LE, Military types. If they are not in that group they are the ppl that are
prepared, aware, and alert to the active and passive threats in daily life.
Prepared and ready to take action as resonablly nessasary"

Of course most of us in these types of forums are sheepdogs,
if were not, it is very strange that your on this forum reading this.
And if your a Wolf... shame on you!

I have already went on and on...
but in short, try to be aware and spot threats before they are upon you.
That sense that somethings wrong, that chill up your spine, or that intuition.... is usually right. listen to it...
clear yourself from that threat if possible or prepare yourself for the action needed...
only you will know... and only you can take the action.
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Last edited by silvercn; 08-19-2010 at 02:45 AM.
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