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  #51  
Old 04-26-2011, 04:49 PM
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I have a 317 3" that is very lightweight and fairly accurate. I'd carry it as an SD gun......if I didn't have anything better. I also have a mid-80s vintage 650 which is a stainless J-frame 3" 22 Magnum that I think would make a decent SD gun.
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  #52  
Old 04-26-2011, 06:27 PM
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It is amazing how well .32s and .38s worked until Elmer came on the scene.
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  #53  
Old 10-19-2011, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stantheman86 View Post
I looked at some energy figures for some of the ultra-velocity .22 LR ammo available like the Aguila Interceptor , and was shocked that this ammo delivers more ft. lbs. than a .32 Auto. The Interceptor is the hottest .22 LR currently available.

Stuff like CCI Stinger and Remington Ultra-Velocity is no joke either, you won't see me raising my hand to volunteer to take one. .22 LR is available in much more powerful loadings these days, in other words "these ain't your grandpa's .22's"

All the people who write .22's off as "pop guns" or "toys" would change their mind if they were shot with one.

I also have some of the 60 gr. Aguila "SSS" ammo, basically a .22 short case with a very long lead .22 slug in it. These hit pretty hard. I wouldn't want to soak one up.
Dont mistake foot pounds of energy with penetration. In sub calibers and frankly most non magnum pistol calibers you might as well stab them with a small long knife. They unless hit in a nerve center will bleed out eventialy.
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Old 10-19-2011, 05:09 PM
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some folks can not handle much more than a .22 and I have not heard of one person who thinks its such a horrible round that they would volunteer to get shot with one. Recently, In SC a clerk shot a very large male attacker with a .22 and he was dead before he hit the ground.....close anyway...stopped the attack and it did kill him.
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Old 10-19-2011, 05:20 PM
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short answer ... no.
22s are for having fun .. defensive pistols are for when your shooting isnt
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  #56  
Old 10-19-2011, 05:43 PM
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To paraphrase Teddy Roosevelt..."Speak softly and carry a bigger cartridge"...especially if you aren't well schooled in shooting.
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  #57  
Old 10-19-2011, 11:28 PM
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I've worked a bunch of Murders committed by folks with .22s.
Some were dead before they hit the floor.

But for me, I'll carry something with a little more punch for lunch. I like rounds that have a proven track record.

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  #58  
Old 03-04-2012, 08:57 AM
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I am new to the sport of handguns and have been to the shooting range a total of (4) time to date. I rented a different 9mm handguns each time. Although i think I was a pretty good shot (at least for a beginner), I decided to purchase a M&P 22. My plan is to really learn the "techniques" needed to "hone" my skills in target shooting. I will be taking all the classes available from NRA instructors to get my CCW. Once I feel that my skills are where I think they should be, then I will get my 9mm to carry.

I could have purchased a 9mm to start, but the cost of ammo to get my skills where I need to be (and feel comfortable) would not fit within my budget, hence take too long to get to my goals. By purchasing a .22 caliber to start, I should be able to achieve my goals quicker.

This is a great thread!!!

Tom
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  #59  
Old 03-05-2012, 05:00 AM
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I have at various times in the past carried a few different small 22 LR
handguns for defense, a 2" S&W 317, an old Beretta 948 and an old
LLama 1911 lookalike. But then I did a bunch of penetration tests in
pine, cedar and wet newsprint with the 22 LR, 25, 32 and 380 acp. I
don't believe anyone should deliberately choose the 22 for a carry
weapon unless nothing else is available.
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  #60  
Old 03-06-2012, 03:31 AM
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First off most anyone who seriously thought they were going into a self defense situation would arm theirself with a larger gun if they had one available. I normally carry snub nose revolvers from 22LR up to my 3" 625. If I got up this morning and I was sure I would be in a self defense situation and had to pack a handgun only, I would drag my XDm in 40 S&W out of the gun safe. I shoot it just fine, but NEVER carry it, it is too big to be handy to carry concealed when I have a herd of nice revolvers.

I for one do not live in a large city full of gang bangers. We have an armed robbery every few years around here, they are fairly rare. Muggings, I have never heard of one in my County. We do have a murder once in a while, normally a domestic incident, or drug related. I conceal carry almost every day. I also shoot my concealed weapon several times each year. Starting about this time of year I will pop an armodillo now and again. Moving into warmer weather we have CottonMouth's, CopperHeads, and a Rattler now and again. Then we might have a Snapping Turtle changing ponds. Then we have a deer now and again hit by a vehicle needing put out of it's misery. Then we have the rogue pop can now and again that needs a good shooting, and later proper disposal.
At this moment I have my 2-1/2" 66 loaded with 135 Short Barrel 357 Magnum ammo, plus 2 Quick Strips with additional rounds of the same. Shortly this will be Town Carry Only ammo, and the 66 will have a couple shot shells up front and my reloads as follow up ammo. I will have additional shot shells and solids in the Quick Strip for Top Off. I have several Quick Strips. I swap them out for woods carry or town carry.

I also have a 4" 617, a 4" Ruger MK III Hunter, and an LCR 22. All 3 of the 22's shoot very well, and I run literally thousands of rounds through them every year. The little LCR 22 I got for a Practice/Training J Frame size handgun. I also have Quick Strips for practice reloads for it. I shot the LCR 22 in our Defensive Pistol Match Saturday in BUG Division. I shot a better score with it than I did my LCR 357 shooting 38 +P 158 grain ammo.

I get to see 22 used in Defensive Pistol matches every other month. We have a Rimfire Division in our Bi Monthly Defensive Pistol match. (We shoot Steel Challange the other month) We see very good scores shot with the 22's. Lots of double tapps that can be covered with a single target paster. Lots of very good hits due to light recoil, as well as practice with the 22.

Where I live, you can carry a 22 revolver, and be armed just fine for most things encountered that need a good shooting. I think a 43C would be a great little revolver if S&W would put a steel cylinder in it. Since they don't I will stay with my LCR 22, it has a very good trigger, as well as a steel cylinder, and a pinned on front sight. I need to pick up a box of 22 shotshells for the LCR 22 and see how well they work before I turn the wife loose with it riding her horse this Summer. She encounters lots of CottonMouths on the creek.

Is a 22 Revolver OK for concealed carry? My answer would be, it depends on where you live, the Threat Level, and if you can handle more recoil. Most new shooters would be better off starting with a J Frame or K Frame size 22 before moving up to a larger concealed carry caliber that is no fun to shoot, as well as expensive to practice with. You can afford to shoot a 22 all you want. Without recoil as a factor, you can improve your accuracy at a much faster rate also. Just My 2 Cents.

Bob
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  #61  
Old 03-06-2012, 04:36 AM
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Last year a gent in the county I work in demonstrated that a .22 lr target pistol is inded a lethal weapon. While they are great for learning and practicing the fundamentals of marksmanship, they wouldn't be most folks first choice for self defense.
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  #62  
Old 03-06-2012, 04:37 PM
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Some would say anything smaller the a .50 cal is under gunned and when I was younger I bought into this for a while. Then I found out they put down cows and gators with .22lr. Sadly many have been killed with the tiny little .22lr. I think .22 is just fine for self defense.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:57 PM
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In the school shooting in Ohio recently, 10 shots of 22 fired...3 dead. I would say, yes it is a choice for self defense.
Prayers to all....................
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  #64  
Old 03-06-2012, 06:03 PM
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It generally takes a very major trauma to immediately stop an aggressive, determined, and very possibly drunk or high, human being. Think about the very nature of someone who has made the decision to forcefully and unlawfully enter YOUR space and invade your personal safety, perhaps expecting up front that you may well be armed. You'd better believe this person has at least made some cognizant evaluation of the potential consequences for the act he is perpetrating. It's very likely that this person does not fear you or your gun at all. This person is counting on his aggressive and very violent nature to force you to submit to his invasion of your space.

With some basic understanding of the kind of threat we are dealing with here, we can now make a reasonable estimate of what it might take to neutralize a person in this psychological/physiological state.

We know that there are a couple of things that are usually very effective in neutralizing a lethal threat such as the type we are dealing with here; either a major disruption to a vital organ (heart, lungs, or brain), or a disruption to the CNS (central nervous system). What that means is that our target areas are relatively limited and require fairly precise shot placement. In addition, once we have achieved proper shot placement, we must have adequate penetration to actually reach and cause disruption to those vital areas mentioned.

When you start adding it all up, it's pretty easy to see that, in reality, the odds are already against us. We are facing an attacker who probably has the element of surprise, possibly superior strength, maybe superior numbers, and perhaps superior firepower. And in order to cause immediate incapacitation, we have to hit a fairly small target and we have to hit it with enough "oomph" to actually do some good. With those odds, I want a larger, more powerful caliber that I can still shoot with good control, and with the ability to deliver multiple follow-up shots until the threat subsides. I want to aim for those vital areas mentioned above, and under certain circumstances, I may want to aim for the ocular cranial cavity, or perhaps perform a near-contact shot to the same. My intention is to stop this lethal threat from harming me or my loved one(s) as quickly as possible with as few shots fired as possible.

Remember, when talking about handgun calibers, it's relatively easy for a bullet to create a sufficient enough wound to cause death, but it's much, much harder for a bullet to create enough immediate trauma to actually cause immediate incapacitation.

As to the argument that some are making stating that those of us who believe the .22 rimfire is inadequate for personal protection would "change our minds if we were shot with one", I'll just say that no RATIONAL human being wants to be shot with any kind of projectile from any weapon. Then again, we are not dealing with "rational" human beings here. We are dealing with people who place no value on our lives and very little (if any) on their own.
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  #65  
Old 03-09-2012, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
It generally takes a very major trauma to immediately stop an aggressive, determined, and very possibly drunk or high, human being. Think about the very nature of someone who has made the decision to forcefully and unlawfully enter YOUR space and invade your personal safety, perhaps expecting up front that you may well be armed. You'd better believe this person has at least made some cognizant evaluation of the potential consequences for the act he is perpetrating. It's very likely that this person does not fear you or your gun at all. This person is counting on his aggressive and very violent nature to force you to submit to his invasion of your space.

With some basic understanding of the kind of threat we are dealing with here, we can now make a reasonable estimate of what it might take to neutralize a person in this psychological/physiological state.

We know that there are a couple of things that are usually very effective in neutralizing a lethal threat such as the type we are dealing with here; either a major disruption to a vital organ (heart, lungs, or brain), or a disruption to the CNS (central nervous system). What that means is that our target areas are relatively limited and require fairly precise shot placement. In addition, once we have achieved proper shot placement, we must have adequate penetration to actually reach and cause disruption to those vital areas mentioned.

When you start adding it all up, it's pretty easy to see that, in reality, the odds are already against us. We are facing an attacker who probably has the element of surprise, possibly superior strength, maybe superior numbers, and perhaps superior firepower. And in order to cause immediate incapacitation, we have to hit a fairly small target and we have to hit it with enough "oomph" to actually do some good. With those odds, I want a larger, more powerful caliber that I can still shoot with good control, and with the ability to deliver multiple follow-up shots until the threat subsides. I want to aim for those vital areas mentioned above, and under certain circumstances, I may want to aim for the ocular cranial cavity, or perhaps perform a near-contact shot to the same. My intention is to stop this lethal threat from harming me or my loved one(s) as quickly as possible with as few shots fired as possible.

Remember, when talking about handgun calibers, it's relatively easy for a bullet to create a sufficient enough wound to cause death, but it's much, much harder for a bullet to create enough immediate trauma to actually cause immediate incapacitation.

As to the argument that some are making stating that those of us who believe the .22 rimfire is inadequate for personal protection would "change our minds if we were shot with one", I'll just say that no RATIONAL human being wants to be shot with any kind of projectile from any weapon. Then again, we are not dealing with "rational" human beings here. We are dealing with people who place no value on our lives and very little (if any) on their own.
Most everything he said he stole from me!!!! But lets understand a couple things!!

In all seriousness I think these kinds of thoughts that cshoff brings up, are not only from either young or uninformed gun owners, but those that make me glad the Great State of Ohio requires a short class of your choice of instructors, before you get a ccp. See there are so many that would benefit from the reminder of what kind of RESPONSABILITY the RIGHT of concealed carry is. Of the fact that your acts are probably going to endanger other lives if you don't control the situation you engage, instantly!! They would realize that how accurate you are is secondary, yes you have to be able to hit the perp center mass, that means anywhere inside a chest cavity the size of a pie plate has put you in charge of that person, and hopefully the situation, but speed has to be priority, or it don't matter how accurate you are. It should at least give you time to engage the next closest perp, before the first one can get up or react. So the fact is when the time comes that you need that ccw, you are dealing with a shot that will need to be made in less than seconds from the time you advance for the weapon. See when you are going to be in need it will probably be at point blank less than 20 feet and most anyone cane hit a pie plate off hand with a little practice @ 20 feet, by simply pointing the weapon with a little practice. and you are not going to have time to bring it to eye level, and aim it, and verify your target and shoot, the perp just killed you because he didn't have a 22, and the shot didn't have to be precise, and if he used my 45 anywhere in the chest, centered the size of a paper plate, was plenty good enough to take you out of the picture, and you are going to die before the ems arrives. So now he can waste you immediately with one or two more rounds, if no one else can engage him, and if not, everyone else in sight you have just irresponsibly put in harms way, because now he don't care how many more he shoots, and he's mad or scared!! No aim,,, point and AS you do, pull the trigger, it has to be that fast when there is a thug with a weapon. I'm sorry but it just has no shock value UNLESS IT IS PRECISE, and you don't have time to worry about being exact, you have to make a descent shot and you don't have to hit a grapefruit, but maybe more than oneshot as quick as possible will be needed, speed is the most important thing!!! Save precise for targets showing off and hunting!!! That is what I do. If you are going to engage a situation, you owe it to yourself, and especially to other buy standers, to do it responsibly, to take total control of the situation as quick as possible with as few shots as possible, you have to be close but you don't have to hit a bullseye, if you have enough gun!! Use a weapon that gives you the best chance to take control of the situation you chose to engage in with ONE SHOT! You can justify any calliber you want, but be assured the smaller the caliber the more time it will take to make a shot that takes control of the situation, because the smaller the slug the smaller the area that will take out the threat.

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  #66  
Old 03-09-2012, 08:21 PM
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no, anything smaller than .38+p is too small.
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  #67  
Old 03-09-2012, 09:06 PM
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no, anything smaller than .38+p is too small.
A 38 is a far cry from a 22, with the right ammo!! even a 158 LSWCHP will penetrate heavy leather and denim, and open up and create good tissue damage and energy transfer. I prefer a 45. in "T" shirt and swets my Bond double barrel, which is as easy and unnoticed, not to mention so comfortable to carry, I don't know its there.


the bottom barrel is dead on at 15 yards and shoots good enough to hit a pop can with Ranger T ammo, plenty good enough to hit a pie plate and the top barrel hits about 5 inches higher and in line. But for point and shoot, it will hit the pie plate, and in light dress very unsuspecting to the perp.

Now when in shorts and T or anything with a belt on, well what can I say, with 9 rounds of Ranger T set on rock'n'roll, I feel safe, and so should all around me!!

lets just say all safe on the home front!!! at any range! and a single stack 1911 by any top maker is very comfortable to carry, i sold my j frame a long time ago!! hate them round cylinders pushing against my hip bone in an inside the waistband!

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Old 03-10-2012, 12:51 AM
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As a vietnam vet I tell and hear some interesting tales and have no reason to doubt any of them. I once had a show table and had out a PPKs in 22. A little man came by and remarked having a gun like that and about his service as a civilian of some sort who was in saigon during tet 68 and in a hotel.
When the assault came he stayed in his hotel room armed just with the PPKs 22. He heard VC in the hallway and opened the door just a crack to see 7 times and ended up firing 7 rounds and made 7 fatal head shots out in the hallway. He had no reason to make this up for me, but I still find it interesting and provocative as to how a cool head (Maybe-I guess he had little choice) and expertise can compensate for a marginal weapon. We all fantisise a lot of scenarios, and some of us wish we could have done a lot better in the "in your face" situations.
I like the 22 because my wife is not reluctant to practise with it. I hope to soon though shift her over to a 351 C or PD from the M34 she has now.
I think a mixture of the short barrel soft rounds with the rifle PSP rounds might cover most potential needs for use of the piece. I do remind her and non-combative folks who want a defense gun to always fire at least 2 rds at a time if the shooting is to be done. If only one assailant is there give them at least half of the load.--for what it is worth!!!
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Old 03-11-2012, 01:06 AM
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There are some good answers in this thread, by folks who
have a bunch of real world experience. Something else may
determine what size/type of gun to carry; finances.
I have seen where people who wanted to carry, were so broke
with the bad economy and job market, that their only
choice is what they already own. And that can mean something
that would seem to be totally inappropriate for self defence.
If it's all you've got, it'll have to do. TACC1
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:02 AM
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A .22 can do the job, but other choices are better. Shot Placement is the key, if you can turn off the motor it's over, unfortunately many who ended up eventually killing an attacker were themselves killed by an aggressor due the SLOW BLEED-OUT.

You either hit the SWITCH that kills the central nervous system, or wait for the Bleed-Out to occur. Bigger wound channel equals a faster bleed-out. Those two situations end the encounter permanently.
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:08 AM
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When I was a small lad over 60 years ago we visited my uncle who had a small farm where he raised a beef every year for his own consumption. This day he had killed a large cow which was hanging in his barn where he was starting the butchering process.

I ask him "how did you kill it?". To which he replied "with a .22". "How many times did you have to shoot it" I inquired. He held up one finger. I asked "where did you shoot it?". With that same finger he pointed to the center of his forehead.
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Old 03-11-2012, 07:41 PM
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Why a .22? I'm not sure the reason when there are .380, .38 and even 9mm that are ultra lightweight.
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Old 03-14-2012, 04:39 AM
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Default Can't think of a good reason for a .22, but I'll try.

1. If that's what you've got, and it's all you've got, then maybe carry it, but realize "stopping the threat" is the objective, and if that's not done quickly, the threat could get really upset with you and you could find yourself in a much worse predicament.
2. Saving on ammo costs is definitely "false economy" in a life or death situation, so naaah; get a bigger gun.
3. Maybe in a situation where deep cover is required, as in the case of an undercover police officer, then I suppose this is better than a photo of your bigger gun, but not by much.
Anybody remember Ruark's book "Use Enough Gun"? Well that had to do with large, often dangerous game. My reasoning is to carry as large a revolver or pistol as I can:
a. Carry in a well concealed manner, yet have the gun readily and quickly available to me.
b. That I am totally familiar with, have practiced with and can shoot accurately and quickly enough with to bring the threat situation to a rapid cessation.
c. That is 100% reliable based upon my practice sessions, as well as shooting my more expensive "social" loads.
My go-to carry gun is almost always an Ed Brown .45 acp Commander size, or a Wilson Officer's size 1911 loaded with Federal 230gr Hydra-shoks. I find I can conceal either of these even in the middle of summer with a "one size up" untucked casual shirt. Yeah, there's a weight factor, but there's the old saying, "go big, or go home", and at the end of the day, I want to make sure I go home. If for some reason, I just can't properly conceal the .45, then I might compromise on a Glock 26 9mm, S&W J-Frame .38 or a Sig 230 in .380 auto and despite the .380's being all the rage in the past few years, I much prefer a more powerful cartridge. I always carry at least one extra magazine or 1 or 2 speed loaders, so I can stay in the fight longer,get out of Dodge, or in the event a magazine goes South, as I just don't like single-shot semi-autos.
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:47 AM
David Sinko David Sinko is offline
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Default Yes, as a SECOND gun

My new 43C is so good that lately I find myself grabbing it as a second gun. I find it's most effective in a pocket where the weak hand is always near it or even grasping it in a shooting grip. It can be out in an instant (actually, no need to take it out... just shoot through the pocket), and I have eight rounds that can be shot very quickly and accurately with no recoil. The light weight and reliability simply can not be ignored. And if the .22 doesn't quite get the job done, a 625 is ready and waiting.

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Old 03-14-2012, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by OLDFED View Post
To paraphrase Teddy Roosevelt..."Speak softly and carry a bigger cartridge"...especially if you aren't well schooled in shooting.
I don't know if that quite adds up. When you don't know what you're doing you're just trying to get hits. It takes less skill and ability to shoot .22s at a certain level than more powerful rounds. Also, the new guy with a .22 is likely to shoot it a little more than the other new guy paying 10x for ammo.
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Old 03-16-2012, 11:19 AM
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During my 30 yr. law enforcement career I had to defend myself a couple of times w/deadly force. Each time it was w/my issued .38 and it did the job. I'm around to enjoy retirement and my grandkids, and would never consider anything less than a .38 for SD. Please understand that I'm not knocking those who do carry a smaller caliber, just relating my experience.
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Old 03-16-2012, 07:12 PM
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A hit with a 22 is better than a miss with a 44.
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Old 03-16-2012, 08:18 PM
NE450No2 NE450No2 is offline
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When I was on the Job I saw a lot of people killed with the 22 LR.

That being said I would not want to depend on one as a Primary...

However, for the last few years I have sometimes carried a 2" 22LR Kit Gun in my pocket, as a No2 to a bigger handgun when in the field, instead of a 2" 38 special.

Some of my hunts are in remote areas, and last for a month or two.

The thought being, I can carry 50 to 100 rounds of 22LR ammo, and not even notice it. Thus giving me a little less "thump" per round but a LOT more "firepower".

I have found accuracy to 25 yards to be about the same with either...
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Old 03-16-2012, 08:56 PM
QuercusMax QuercusMax is offline
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The question debated here is similar to ones like "What is the best or safest car to drive?" There is almost 0 chance of agreement, because there are many experiences and many opinions. Here is mine:

I'm not current or ex- LEO or military, but have moderate firearms experience. And like most people today, I have a lot of other stuff to carry around (keys, smartphone, company phone, etc). The last thing I need is another big thing to keep on my person all the time, especially since I don't live my life in dangerous situations.

I have a nice small Kahr 9mm that I keep with me at times, but even it is a burden, so it gets left at home more and more. And despite a fair amount of practice, I am not that accurate with it. However, I *am* quite accurate with any of the several .22s that I have.

In fact, I am confident that I could place my first .22 shot - and several follow-ups - pretty much where I want them to be, while with any of my small larger-caliber guns I am not so sure. Those with more experience might feel differently.

Thus I am thinking the best option for me is a small .22 that I can carry with me much more often than any of the big chunks I have now, and this would be the best option - for me - because of my confidence with .22s in general, and because the best gun is the one that I can have with me as much of the time as possible.

I am also mindful the the likelihood of my *ever* having to use my carry piece is close to the likelihood of winning the lottery, so I don't want to let carrying a large weapon govern my everyday life.

Your situation might be different.
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Old 03-17-2012, 01:04 AM
Mattkcc Mattkcc is offline
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Most gun fights end when someone shoots back, these guys are cowards and can't run fast enough when someone shoots back. I've seen a lot of people survive 9mm, 38, 40 and even 357 head wounds but never saw anyone survive a 22 into the skull for a couple of reasons. First it tends to punch in then bounce around. Second what normally kills on a head shot is a build up of pressure in the brain. Those larger calibers make nice drainage holes. A 22 hole quickly clots and the pressure builds.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:33 AM
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I've had a couple of people ask me what their first handgun should be. They are not gun people. I've suggested a 22cal. Told them that sight picture and trigger control is the most important thing they can learn then move up in caliber . Plus after shooting a while will help them decide what they will want to move up to.
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Old 03-25-2012, 12:49 PM
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Saw this this morning on one of my other forums and just had to steal it for this thread..."reminding you that friends don't let friends carry mouseguns."

On a serious note though, any gun is better than none.
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Old 03-25-2012, 02:41 PM
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I remember reading a statement from Jeff Cooper were he opined the virtues of the 317. He found value in how light the 317 was. I carried a 43C (11OZ?) in my shorts pocket while mowing my lawn yesterday. It was so light I didn’t know it was there. I live in a nice relatively safe town, but I won’t go unarmed in public. Including my yard. A 317 or 43C makes sense there to me, or carried as a New York reload.

So, you never know what “your fight” will look like, or what it will take to win.

However, I think it’s safe to say when I was active duty LE/retired LE, I'm more likely to get into a gunfight than your average Joe. The bad guys all know who I am. If I walk into a stop & rob and it’s being held up, I’m more likely to be a target because It’s likely the Perp and I know each other. On the other hand, I liked having the 43C in my pocket mowing my lawn the other day.

Even though we never know what our fight will look like, or what it will take to win, I do make some assumptions. Soon we will being going on a trip to visit my Mom in Portland, the big city from the small town. Now that I’m retired and more mellow I’ll tone it down to a Glock 26, 43C, and AR-15.

If I have to shoot someone with a .22 LR, I’ll attempt to screw the barrel into their ear as I pull the trigger.

Emory

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Old 03-25-2012, 03:13 PM
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Not the first choice but better than a sharp stick.
I'll confess to carrying mine from time to time.
Loaded with Aguila Interceptors.
Most likely threat in my haunts would probably be dogs.

Discretion being the better part of valor, I now try to avoid places where serious trouble is likely.
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Old 03-25-2012, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dogngun View Post
but not a S&W. I own a 1955 High Standard Sentinel 9 shot DA revolver, and load it with solids for more penetration than HP's. This gun can use the HKS speedloaders designed for the H&R 9 shot revolvers...I have 3 of them. The gun has an aluminum frame and a 2 1/2" barrel, and it pretty light and very reliable and accurate.
If you decide to carry a .22, I recommend the following; Practice as much as you can, practice dry firing using snap caps (NEVER with empty chambers to avoid damage to the gun). Accurate shot placement is everything with a very small caliber...actually with ANY handgun-none of them are magic.
DO NOT carry hollow points-solids only. You need that small bullet to get as deep as possible. Practice with the ammo you will carry.

IMO, Mr Cooper was a blowhard who was selling his books...

Practice till you can do it in your sleep.

mark
The High Standard you refer to is a much under rated weapon
, as a fireman/emt I have been to a few shootings and suicides, .22 cal bullits tend to bounce almost anywhere they want.
As to Cooper I had the pleasure of taking several courses from Clint Smith(THUNDER RANCH) after Cooper sold Gunsite, Clint had been Coopers cheif instructor and taught a slightly modified Cooper method. I went in the class like a bobcat and came out like a mountain lion. Had to break 20 years of poor habbits. When you can get 5 45acps out is one second all in the kill zone in one second Coopers methods worked for me.
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Old 03-25-2012, 06:33 PM
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I am retired now but was a street cop in a medium sized city for over 30 yrs. I probably was at the scene of 5 or 6 homicides a year and the same number of suicides as well. Based on what I saw, I believe the .22 cal killed more people than all the others put together, until, the 9mm became so popular. The suicides were either head shots or heart shots. Homicides were face or chest shots and I even saw an arm shot that went in and out of the arm, then into the side of the chest under the arm. It went thru the heart and into the breast where it finally stopped. The 22 was the most common handgun owned by the average person so it stands to reason it was used the most (except for shotguns). Those little bullets really travel and they can go thru heavy coats like nothing. I have nothing but respect for 22's. Having said that, I carry 38's and 40's for self defense. I respect all size calibers, there are pros and cons for every single one of them. One more thing, you will end up carrying whatever is the most comfortable for you. Or, you will leave it home. Now, get a gun and start practicing. Good luck.
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Old 03-25-2012, 09:11 PM
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The Zodiac killed his first two victims with a 22.
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Old 03-25-2012, 09:35 PM
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I often carry my 317 Airlite (8 rounds of CCI) or my 351 (7 rounds of hot .22 mags) roaming around the farm/woods. Would not be my first choice re self-defense, but clearly capable of killing someone. Most of the time, just being armed and being able to shoot is all the deterrent you need. haven't run into any Meth-crazed carjackers (yet) but feel fully capable of engaging them if that is what I was carrying at the time. As we all know, it is all about shot placement. My preferred weapons are the Model 327 PD or my Kimber TLE. Both with eight shots.
Also, sometimes, all you need is a "mobility" kill -- the majority of bad guys who take a couple of hits (IMHO) from a .22 LR or .22 mag will be out of the fight -- one to the face/head, two center of mass, one in lower abdomen -- your average bad guy will be in full retreat and not feeling so good , hurting in several different areas. Psychologically, bullet hits to different parts of the body really distracts the bad guy -- . Also, the new .32 auto rounds with 60 to 71 grain PD bullets will do a number on someone. I have aTomcat .32 auto with an extra clip as a BUG, very efficient at 10-20 yard fights. And most gunfights occur at 5 - 15 yards according to articles/analyses I have seen.
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Old 03-26-2012, 09:56 AM
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One thing that always frustrates me about these small caliber defensive gun threads is that few place the use of the defensive gun in the proper context. They frequently post about how the .22/.25 is used to:

-Kill 1000 pound steers with a single shot to the head
-Used by Mossad/Mafia etc.. hitters
-Has killed trainloads of murder victims


Folks, any firearm can kill, we all know that. In each of the above cited examples the target is restrained/unaware/defenseless. If that's your defensive scenario, I suppose a .22 is all you need.

Another example: A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45. That's pretty obvious but make the assumption that the shooter can't hit with anything larger than a .22. Really?

Let's look at it from a different perspective. If you are attacked and shot anywhere but the brain or spine with a .22, would that keep you from returning fire and defending yourself or family? No? I didn't think so. Why would you assume that your opponent has less determination than you? Never underestimate determination and committment of your attacker.
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:22 AM
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Especialy if the person is all doped up , No feeling at all so you have to practically put em down in on shot or they will have you .To small a gun will just give em more fire .
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:22 AM
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Too bad no one offered an opinion to your question
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:14 PM
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I think there are two ways to use a .22 caliber for self defense. We use one way often.

A .22 lr revolver (that we have) is shot very often by both my wife and myself to keep in practice and just have fun. We both shoot our .44's also but not as much as the .22. We believe that shooting the .22 keeps us better shooters with our real self defense revolvers. (My wife seems to outshoot me fairly often with the .22. She never let's me forget either.)

In an emergency, hopefully better armed, a .22 would be better than nothing and if I had to I would use it. I have killed hogs and cattle with a .22 to the brain so I know it can be deadly, but only with a careful shot.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:49 PM
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I have a Taurus 8 shot 2 1/2" .22 Magnum I occasionally carry, makes some pretty nasty holes in a wet phone book, I sure a heck wouldn't want to be shot with one...of course I would rather use a .357 if it ever comes down to it.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:02 PM
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a .22 revolver would b a good small game hunting/target pistol. As far as for self defense your choice is not a good one: it is limited in stopping power and ammo capacity. If you must have a .22 i would recommend a semi-auto with a high cap mag. If a .22 was a sufficient self defense weapon, than law enforcement would carry them.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:29 AM
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I would not think of a .22 for "self-defence" but for 'plinking' cans. A 357 Magnum will just slow down a person on drugs. The ONLY defense in a "threatening situation" is a well-placed shot. Placement is critical - like a winning pool shot in a billiard tournament.
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Old 05-01-2012, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frailer View Post
A .22 is definitely sub-optimal, but one could argue that about any handgun caliber. I often carry a NAA Black Widow in .22 Magnum in my pocket, but I sincerely hope that if I ever run into someone who intends to do me grievous harm I have something more potent at hand.

Rimfire ammo isn't as reliable as centerfire, so I'd definitely go with a revolver, and I'd want as many shots as possible. Given that, I'd vote for a 10-shot Model 617. If I wanted to carry concealed, I'd grab one of the 8-shot 3" Model 63s when they finally appear.

Would either be *good*? No. But, as others have said, either would be better than nothing at all.

EDIT: I just realized you said .22 *caliber*; if you include magnums in the equation I'd change my vote to the 351PD. A .22 WMR fired from a short barrel is *loud*; it might be enough to make the bad guy change his mind even if the bullet headed his way doesn't.
I agree with you that a 22WMR ammo is certainly better than the 22LR. I am very interested in this round myself for hunting.
I also agree that, in general, 22LR ammo is not as reliable as a centerfire round unless you buy the top-shelf premium ammo. And, you should be carrying the expensive stuffs if you are using it for CCW anyway.

Having said all these, please remember that the 22LR was used to assassinate Senator Robert Kennedy. This highly publicized event clearly indicated that if the target is unaware of your presence (cooperating), your round placement can and will kill any homo sapien. But, again, there is a lot of "if" and "but" about a cooperating target presenting an opportunity and those are usually few or none in a CCW encounter.

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Old 05-02-2012, 12:24 AM
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It would be better than nothing but would rather have a 9 or 40. Like others have said it would still give you a bad day being shot by a 22 but lets say the BG is jacked up on coke youd want something that will drop him quickly.
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Old 05-07-2012, 05:29 PM
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Instantaneous incapacitation is not possible with non central nervous system wounds and does not always occur with central nervous system wounds. The intrinsic physiologic compensatory mechanisms of humans makes it difficult to inhibit a determined, aggressive person's activities until he has lost enough blood to cause hemorrhagic shock. The body's compensatory mechanisms designed to save a person's life after sustaining a bleeding wound, allow a person to continue to be a threat after receiving an eventually fatal wound, thus necessitating more rounds being fired in order to incapacitate or stop the assailant
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Old 05-13-2012, 09:21 PM
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I'm reluctant but willing to say I had my first AD a couple of weeks ago with the new Kel-Tec 22 mag. I was pointed down in a safe direction, did not pull the slide back far enough to see the round. Presed the trigger. The CCI 22 mag TMJ completely penetrated my 3/8ths inch table top cover pad, 1 inch cherry wood table top, 4 inch seat cushin 1/2 inch wood base for the cushin and pentrated the carpet. I'm not proud to tell this story, but the 22 mag will penetrate multiple layers. My wife did not even get mad. I love her!
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:14 AM
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And it has nothing to do with the question. I would love to ban the phrase "do you want to get shot with one" I don't want to be shot with a BB gun - so what - that's an absolutely meaningless statement. The idea is to stop the threat as quickly as possible - not something any 22 handgun loaded with anything is very good at. This isn't the movies people; when you shoot someone with your 45ACP Hammer of Thor you best be prepared for the possiblity of having fire returned and perhaps taking a hit. Be resolute & keep shooting until the situation is resolved. (Handguns aren't really the best choice in the first place, however it's kind of hard to conceal a battle rifle.)
Not so meaningless as it means that no one wants to be shot with anything which you also believe. Historically and statistically, most people do not want to be shot with anything and will stop at the sight of a gun. Read some of Massad Ayoob's articles or those of others who have actual experience or compiled data. I found that the retired LEO I know drew their guns a lot but not one of the 8 in my family or circle of close friends, ever shot anyone in their long LEO careers. You go on to state that even a .45 is ineffective so how does that make a .22 any worse? I can only go by my experience in combat and as a civilian. In combat I saw men stopped when shot in the toe and some who absorbed a lot of good hits and still kept coming until they bled out. As a civilian I saw one shooting. A big guy was shot once in the belly by a .22 Saturday Night Special and immediately clutched his stomach and went to his knees. Personally I have twiced been attacked, once by 3 guys and each time they fled when they saw my gun without asking what caliber it was.

The truth is that so much time is spent arguing about calibers and which gun when the dirty little secret is that the odds of even needing a gun are slim, having to shoot it even slimmer and having the caliber make a diffference even smaller yet. We all spend a lot of time talking about things that will never happen to the great majority of people. I tend to prepare for the possible that is likely rather than the unlikely simply because it is possible. When a gun is the answer, it seems that no odds are too small.

In case anyone is curious, I carry either a 9mm or .357 LCR when I leave my home. The reason why is simple. My last confrontation was with someone armed who was about to rob a store. When he saw my gun come out of my pocket he fled out the door. He did not seem to care that it was just a .22 revolver. However, I was wishing like heck that I had carried one of my many bigger guns that day and since then it is either a 9mm or .357 so I never have to feel that way again. I only have experience against flesh with a .45 ACP but many police departments seem to do OK with +P 9mm and the .357 is still arguably the best man stopper out there. I do sometimes carry a .22 when I feel that I do not need a gun.
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