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Old 09-12-2010, 08:06 AM
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I was watching an old cop movie the other day and noticed that before sweeping a building for bad guys, the officers pre-cocked their revolvers. Was this really the way officers were trained, or is this just another Hollywood inaccuracy? If this depiction was accurate, were officers also trained to disengage their 1911 safeties before sweeping a building?
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Old 09-12-2010, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by tocohillsguy View Post
I was watching an old cop movie the other day and noticed that before sweeping a building for bad guys, the officers pre-cocked their revolvers. Was this really the way officers were trained, or is this just another Hollywood inaccuracy? If this depiction was accurate, were officers also trained to disengage their 1911 safeties before sweeping a building?
Never in my 22 years of law enforcement was this trained. Revolver or auto. TC
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Old 09-12-2010, 08:58 AM
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That is definitely not taught in any training I have ever attended. I would consider that very dangerous and believe it is no more than theatrics. Like the six shot revolver that fires indefinitely without reloading.
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:04 AM
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First, films ave never been known for accurately portraying anything. Makes no difference whether you are talking technology, police or military tactics or????

Until at least the mid-late 1950s there was very little training of police officers. They were literally hired, handed a badge, gun, and call-box key and told to go to work. Were they taught to cock a revolver under the described circumstances, no. They weren't taught not to either! Did some officers do it this way, undoubtedly yes. Should they have, obviously from modern tactical perspective they shouldn't have, but that was a different time and things were different.

tocohillsguy says "Never in my 22 years of law enforcement was this trained." Don't know when that was, but when I was hired, in 1969, there were still officers on the department that had been on the street since the 1930s. It was really interesting to talk about their early days and how things had been "Back then", and what I have related is based on discussions I have had with "The old heads" while they were still around.
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:28 AM
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No absolutely not
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tocohillsguy View Post
I was watching an old cop movie the other day
There's your answer there.

Do you watch a "Flash Gordon" serial and wonder if that's how NASA does things?

Do you watch "Beach Red" and wonder why the Marines in the Pacific had M-47s, but the Army in Europe, faced with Panthers and Tigers had to make do with Shermans?

Do you watch "100 Rifles" and wonder if John Garand made up a special run of M1s for the Mexican Army around 1910?

The movies are make believe and whatever's in the script is whatever happens. Any resemblance to reality is purely coincidental. Usually, it's purely accidental.

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Old 09-12-2010, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by tocohillsguy
I was watching an old cop movie the other day




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Originally Posted by cmort666 View Post
There's your answer there.

Do you watch a "Flash Gordon" serial and wonder if that's how NASA does things?

Do you watch "Beach Red" and wonder why the Marines in the Pacific had M-47s, but the Army in Europe, faced with Panthers and Tigers had to make do with Shermans?

Do you watch "100 Rifles" and wonder if John Garand made up a special run of M1s for the Mexican Army around 1910?

The movies are make believe and whatever's in the script is whatever happens. Any resemblance to reality is purely coincidental. Usually, it's purely accidental.

Now, right there ya go!!! ~Smiley~

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Old 09-12-2010, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by cmort666 View Post
There's your answer there.

Do you watch a "Flash Gordon" serial and wonder if that's how NASA does things?

Do you watch "Beach Red" and wonder why the Marines in the Pacific had M-47s, but the Army in Europe, faced with Panthers and Tigers had to make do with Shermans?

Do you watch "100 Rifles" and wonder if John Garand made up a special run of M1s for the Mexican Army around 1910?

The movies are make believe and whatever's in the script is whatever happens. Any resemblance to reality is purely coincidental. Usually, it's purely accidental.
Geez, excuse me for asking.
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Old 09-12-2010, 12:21 PM
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Geez, excuse me for asking.
Movies have always been fantasy. These days they're usually STUPID fantasy. That's why I see very few films anymore.

Movie cowboys used to regularly shoot guns out of people's hands. Now, idiots in LA are wondering why the cop(s) who shot the drunken Guatemalan who was waving a big knife around, didn't just shoot the gun out of his hand. Not only isn't that the first time I've heard that, it isn't even the fifth. I'm a harsh critic of the police who thinks they should be held to a very stringent standard. That standard's NOT going to be found in "My Darling Clementine", or "The Naked City".

The most accurate part of 99% of films is the credits.
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Old 09-12-2010, 12:28 PM
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Well, IMHO, if a person carries the right sidearm, it stays cocked. A 1911 works well already cocked and loaded. In fact, the only time my 1911 guns are not cocked is when I am cleaning them.

I do pre-cock a Model 66 when sweeping an area in darkness. But I do so only when I am on my own time and helping a friend.

Last edited by oldman45; 09-12-2010 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 09-12-2010, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by cmort666 View Post
Movies have always been fantasy. These days they're usually STUPID fantasy. That's why I see very few films anymore.

Movie cowboys used to regularly shoot guns out of people's hands. Now, idiots in LA are wondering why the cop(s) who shot the drunken Guatemalan who was waving a big knife around, didn't just shoot the gun out of his hand. Not only isn't that the first time I've heard that, it isn't even the fifth. I'm a harsh critic of the police who thinks they should be held to a very stringent standard. That standard's NOT going to be found in "My Darling Clementine", or "The Naked City".

The most accurate part of 99% of films is the credits.
Chill, it was just a question. In part it was the product of watching an IDPA qualifier where I saw someone shoot single action for the longer shots and double action for those closer. Made me wonder how police officers were trained with respect to revolver use. The movie simply made me even more curious.
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Old 09-12-2010, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by tocohillsguy View Post
I was watching an old cop movie the other day and noticed that before sweeping a building for bad guys, the officers pre-cocked their revolvers. Was this really the way officers were trained, or is this just another Hollywood inaccuracy? If this depiction was accurate, were officers also trained to disengage their 1911 safeties before sweeping a building?

Sir,

I've cleared a few buildings in my day...Don't ever remember cockin' my revolver.

Never noticed anyone cocking their pistols...I guess I must've been busy coverin' my own ground.~Smiley~

As far as the safety on my 1911...I don't rightly recall. ~Grinin' little guy~

Su Amigo,
Dave
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Old 09-12-2010, 01:03 PM
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Chill, it was just a question. In part it was the product of watching an IDPA qualifier where I saw someone shoot single action for the longer shots and double action for those closer. Made me wonder how police officers were trained with respect to revolver use. The movie simply made me even more curious.
Firearms training has changed a lot over the years, and not always to the better, but I don't remember ever being taught to shoot single action for anything. But I did, especially for the longer shots.

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Old 09-12-2010, 01:12 PM
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WOW MEMBERS!!!!!!!!! Someone have a fight with the other half before posting???? I understood a question about training techniques and you jump all over the guy. Have some more coffee and maybe a smidge of "shut up" in it..... A few of you are rougher than 80 grit........LOL.....Remember, we are all gun-NUTZ here. Allow some latitude......OH.., Good morning.
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Old 09-12-2010, 05:34 PM
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The lead firearms instructor in my academy was a local PD armorer and range master for many moons. He told me he was first hired as a patrolman in 1962. He told me the only time they ever shot singe action was at 50 yards during matches or qualification. Yes, he said they used to qualify at 50 yards way back when. But 25 yards and in was double action.
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Old 09-12-2010, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
I was watching an old cop movie the other day and noticed that before sweeping a building for bad guys, the officers pre-cocked their revolvers. Was this really the way officers were trained, or is this just another Hollywood inaccuracy? If this depiction was accurate, were officers also trained to disengage their 1911 safeties before sweeping a building?
I went through my first academy (reserve) in 1971. We weren’t taught to pre-cock our revolvers, but we weren’t told we couldn’t either.

I shot some PPC back then. Many more shots were taken preparing for and shooting the matches then were ever taken at the academy or in requalification. Pre-cocking for the longer shots was done (but not by all), and our PPC experience/training would show up in our handgun usage in the field.

Did some officers pre-cock in the field?

Probably a few did, but I don’t recall seeing it done.

Hollywood inaccuracy?

Most likely yes, but as I noted above, pre-cocking by some officers is possible.

Disengage a 1911 safety before sweeping a building?

The departments in my area didn't allow the carry of semi-autos on duty in the 70’s - revolvers only.

At your service,

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Old 09-12-2010, 05:58 PM
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First, films ave never been known for accurately portraying anything. Makes no difference whether you are talking technology, police or military tactics or????
Isn't that the truth!
I remember in the movie Blue Steel with Jamie Lee Curtis, the bad guy had taken her duty revolver. So - later his is getting ready to shoot someone. He first cocks the revolver to scare the guy - then the camera zooms in ..... for dramatic effect, they show the guy squeezing the trigger, the cylinder turning .....
Well - we all know that the cylinder would have turned when the hammer was thumbed back. The bad guy didn't lower the hammer - but they don't know what they're talking about.

In Stand By Me, a kid at the bank of the stream breaks up a fight by firing a 1911 up in the air. Then, when one of the older boy comes at him, he points the 45 at him and thumbs back the hammer ..... ugh!

So - in short - we can't trust Hollywood to portray anything gun related correctly. But there is a reason for that ... Hollywood is in CA, and (by-and-large) movies are made by liberals .... so it is no wonder that they don't know how guns work!
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Old 09-12-2010, 06:03 PM
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If movies were a guide to how police carry out... or are supposed to carry out their duties, the nightly news would be replete with videos of cops shooting two handguns simultaneously... while flying through the air.

Perhaps John Woo is the new Ed McGivern...
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:34 PM
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Actually, many police departments either ordered their revolvers or modified them so that they CAN'T be cocked single action. Generally, a cocked double action revolver in the hands of someone with a dose of adrenalin on board is a bad thing. Not only is an unintended discharge far more likely, the chances the gun handler will forget it is cocked and reholster it that way is pretty good. A double action revolver is best cocked only when the decision to shoot has been made.

Proper training with a single action semiauto is to remove the safety after the draw, while raising the gun up on target. It doesn't slow anything down, as it takes less time to flip the safety off than it does to raise the pistol- doing both at the same time slows nothing. Same thing when lowering the gun from a target, muzzle down/safety on. Up-snick, down-snick.

Proper training in good technique and frequent practice is always the key to safe use of a defensive handgun.

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Old 09-12-2010, 10:03 PM
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Two points here:

1. How can one watch "100 Rifles" and see any guns? All I could ever see in that movie was Raquel Welch. There were guns?

2. I can see scenarios where I might want to pre-cock a revolver. This would be no different than taking off the safety of an auto in Condition 1. The finger stays off the trigger until the sights are on target. I was always taught to be flexible and use the tools available to me.
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Old 09-13-2010, 12:27 AM
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I went through the academy in 1978 and we were not allowed to shoot single action (never heard the term "pre-cocked" before) and we qualified on the PPC course so that was 18 rounds at 50 yards double action.
Speaking of Hollywood, ever seen The Commancheros with John Wayne? It was supposed take place in the 1840's but they were using Peacemakers and Wichester '73s !!
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:57 AM
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Speaking of Hollywood, ever seen The Commancheros with John Wayne? It was supposed take place in the 1840's but they were using Peacemakers and Wichester '73s !!
Ever seen "El Dorado"? Robert Mitchum's handgun switches from a Colt SAA to a S&W(?) double action revolver and back again several times.

Or how about "100 Rifles" when the Mexican troops during the Revolution are carrying M1 Garands?
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:28 AM
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I go into this post allowing for the possibility that I might be wrong - I don't know exactly how the Army's 1st Air Cav was equipped in Nov of 1965.

The movie "We Were Soldiers" was based on the battle for the Ia Drang Valley, November 14-18, 1965. All the rifles used in the movie (that I could see) feature a forward assist.

To my knowledge the first production version of the M16 with the FA was the M16A1 which went into production in Feb of 1967. Now - there was an Army prototype rifle called the XM16E1, but I don't think that it was issued in suffiecient numbers to equip all the soldiers that fought in Ia Drang with one. At the very least, I think I should have seen some M16's in there (or XM16's or SP1's) - but I didn't see one without a FA.

I imagine Hollywood prop lockers are filled with A1's from all the other Vietnam movies - so the prop masters probably didn't think anyone would notice (if they even knew) ..... at least they had the triangular handguards correct!
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:30 AM
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Two points here:

1. How can one watch "100 Rifles" and see any guns? All I could ever see in that movie was Raquel Welch. There were guns?
There were actually scenes without her!

I saw it dubbed into Korean once! All of the men's voices were deeper than Isaac Hayes's and all of the women's higher than Betty Boop's.
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:32 AM
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The movie "We Were Soldiers" was based on the battle for the Ia Drang Valley, November 14-18, 1965.ew) ..... at least they had the triangular handguards correct!
In the prologue, the French troops have their berets pulled to the wrong side!
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:51 AM
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I go into this post allowing for the possibility that I might be wrong - I don't know exactly how the Army's 1st Air Cav was equipped in Nov of 1965.

The movie "We Were Soldiers" was based on the battle for the Ia Drang Valley, November 14-18, 1965. All the rifles used in the movie (that I could see) feature a forward assist.

To my knowledge the first production version of the M16 with the FA was the M16A1 which went into production in Feb of 1967. Now - there was an Army prototype rifle called the XM16E1, but I don't think that it was issued in suffiecient numbers to equip all the soldiers that fought in Ia Drang with one. At the very least, I think I should have seen some M16's in there (or XM16's or SP1's) - but I didn't see one without a FA.

I imagine Hollywood prop lockers are filled with A1's from all the other Vietnam movies - so the prop masters probably didn't think anyone would notice (if they even knew) ..... at least they had the triangular handguards correct!
Take a look at the original photo of Lt. Rick Rescorla during the battle. The forward assist is clearly visible. As I understand it Ia Drang saw the introduction of the M16E1 in quantity.
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Old 09-13-2010, 02:07 PM
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Take a look at the original photo of Lt. Rick Rescorla during the battle. The forward assist is clearly visible. As I understand it Ia Drang saw the introduction of the M16E1 in quantity.
Good thing I started my post be saying I might be wrong!

Happened before --- it'll happen again!

I really didn't think the FA was available in quantity that early - oh well.
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:12 PM
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Good thing I started my post be saying I might be wrong!

Happened before --- it'll happen again!

I really didn't think the FA was available in quantity that early - oh well.
Don't feel too bad as it's easy to get confused on this, and there was likely a lot of variation from unit to unit. Believe me, I agonized over this while putting together an M16 lookalike for my Vietnam-era Army collection. I started off with a beautiful SP1, but after doing some research and looking at TONS of period photos I realized that the pre-FA rifles were used by the Air Force, Marines, and Navy well into the war but from IA Drang on the Army typically had the FA version. I recall claims on one Internet forum that some USAF rifles sported pre-FA uppers into the 21st Century!

There's also the question of fencing on the lower receiver, and in this 1966 training film the XM16E1 is clearly depicted at 4:46 in "partial fence" configuration:

Rifle 5.56mm, XM16E1, Operation and Cycle of Functioning TF9-3663 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Some of the early advisor photos show M16s with slick-sided uppers and no fencing whatsoever, and I recall a later photo of an ARVN trooper carrying a rifle with no fencing and retrofitted FA upper.

The long and short of it appears to be that Army units throughout most of the war were equipped with rifles fitted with FAs.
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Old 09-15-2010, 04:59 PM
Lt JL Lt JL is offline
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To further muddy this most excellent post, our Sheriff's Office, which does the annual requalifications for retired guys, lets 'em fire single action, semi or wheelie, at the 50 foot stage. 1911s are banned, as is anything else with a barrel over 4".
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Old 09-15-2010, 07:30 PM
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Well, I figure I outta tell ya'll about the only time I ever saw a lawman thumb cock his revolver while on duty...
My old partner and I (I was a young pup then) had arrested a big ol boy for DUI. Put him in the city jail holding cell to sleep it off, when we got a radio call to return to the PD. Turns out this big boy had ripped the commode outta the floor and was standin' in the holding cell, the dripping toilet over his head, water spraying everywhere in the cell. As the drunk was yelling and screaming he was gonna kill us all if we opened the cell door, my partner had me open the cell and he went in, pulling his nickel plated 4 inch Python as he did so, stood at the cell door, thumb cocked it, and pointed it between his eyes. Ron told the dude he was gonna blow his brains all over the cell if he didn't put the crapper down. The big ol dude stood their, looked at Ron holding that Python one handed, arm outstretched like a 1930's police cadet...and decided enough was enough. He put the john down and we cuffed him, and took him to the county jail.....
The county jail staff took a dim view of his behavior, but that is another story...
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Old 09-16-2010, 05:20 PM
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"Old cop movie"
Nuff said.
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Old 09-16-2010, 06:22 PM
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I'm not a cop but I would not want my adrenaline-laced finger on a 3lb trigger when I had a 8-12 lb one available. Too much chance for an accidental discharge.

So, for me, a double action revolver would be kept with hammer down. a 1911 would be kept with the safety on (that makes the 1911 a poor choice for me. The time getting that safety off might be costly). A Glock or something similar would be just like the DA revolver.

But I would not want to be pointing a pistol with a light trigger at unknown targets.
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Old 09-17-2010, 12:01 AM
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Default Hollywood Drama

Single action police tactical technique -- only for the movies. In tactical situations, DA shooting is far more accurate and, of course, fast.
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Old 09-17-2010, 01:07 AM
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Sounds like most of you guys are too young to remember the case that got johnny cochran started. A black by the name of leonard deadwhyler was driveing his wife to the hostpital to have a baby in 1966 in L.A.
He was speeding and pulled over by a LAPD officer. Supposedly his foot slipped off the clutch, the car lurched forward knocking the officers arm and his revolver went off killing deadwhyler. As a result lapd had all the revovers fixed to fire double action only. The case was highly publisied, and the trial was on tv every day. I well remember it and watched the trial. You figure they would have changed all the guns if that officer hadnt thumbed his hammer back?
Landmark Cochran cases | Jet | Find Articles at BNET
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Old 09-17-2010, 08:19 AM
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Default I Remember -- When Things Go Wrong, Blame the Gun

I believe the DA-only modification was pretty much LAPD-unique. It was done in direct response to the Deadwhyler shooting. However, the tactic of sticking (or brandishing) a gun into the interior of a suspect's vehicle is almost never a good idea -- as the Deadwhyler shooting aptly demonstrated. The DA-only modification was immediately met with resistance from LAPD's rank and file; however, over time it became the norm and was not met with sustained opposition. The Deadwhyler shooting is an early example of what we've unfortunately come to know -- when poor gun handling or tactics occur, blame the gun not the operator and then make draconian "safety" modifications.
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