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Old 11-19-2010, 07:48 PM
brucear77 brucear77 is offline
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Question When things go bad

When things go bad what is the best and most reliable
Semi-auto Pistols
Revolvers
and what caliber

Last edited by brucear77; 11-19-2010 at 08:00 PM. Reason: more info
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Old 11-19-2010, 08:04 PM
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I think it's the gun that you will carry with you every day and not leave in the car or at home. For me it is a pocket gun. A Kahr P380. Others will carry a full size gun and like it. It's really what you like best. Don
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Old 11-19-2010, 08:41 PM
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It depends on how bad things go.

Col. Jeff Cooper took a float trip down the river Balsas in Mexico. He carried a .38 Super 1911 and his friend carried a .357 revolver.
Cooper wrote that he had to strip the revolver down every night and clean it to keep it working. His 1911 needed minimal cleaning to function.
Each gun was exposed to water, sand, mud etc every day.

In normal use I've had less misfeeds and ammo related malfs with the various revolvers I own than with the semiautos. But, I have seen a Ruger Blackhawk, a Virginian Dragoon, an M36 snub, and my M649 malfunction. The M36 failed at a Hunter's Pistol Silhouette match and went to the gunsmith with the hammer at full cock, a live round under the hammer, and a rag wrapped around the hammer just in case. It was not my gun but I was on the next firing point when the guy "tried it out" at the range. My Ruger Blackhawk once got so cold the hand failed to rise to index the cylinder correctly. My 649 stopped working in double-action one day in practice. It could still be cocked and fired single-action.
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Old 11-19-2010, 09:43 PM
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I carry a 5906TSW in the summer, a 4046TSW in the spring and fall and a 4583TSW in the winter. I like to keep things simple AND familiar. To date, I have put 15,364 rounds through my 4046 and have had ony 6 malfunctions, 5,500 through the 5906 with 0 malfunctions and 10,232 through my 4583 with only 3 malfunctions. I sold every other handgun I owned, SIG's, Kimbers and my Wilson Combat and just kept my Smith's. Sometimes I'll carry my one non-Smith off duty and that's a Ruger SP101 in .357, which is also my BUG when I'm on duty.
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Old 11-19-2010, 09:50 PM
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I never had a revolver fail but I have had one break.

I have had semi autos jamb, fail to fully cycle and a few other things go wrong.

I find an auto loader is easier to repair with a minimum amount of effort and less skill while a revolver repair usually means a trip to the gunsmith or factory.
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Old 11-19-2010, 10:53 PM
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Please don't hate me, but for reliability in a semi-auto I don't think anything tops a Glock. Yeah, they're ugly as sin, but they work. The fact that they're in something like 60% of the police holsters in this country says something. I own three, a G22, G23 and G27, all .40 caliber. I trust them implicitly and have for about 14 years.
For a revolver, a K, L or N-Frame S&W is tops, especially in .38 Spl. or .357 Magnum. The Rugers are very good too, and probably stronger.
There are cheaper makers out there, but these will get you through the night.....And back again.
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Old 11-20-2010, 01:24 AM
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My three defense handguns are all revolvers, two Smiths and a Ruger. One of the Smiths is a .357 Model 65, the Ruger is a .357 SP 101 and the other Smith is a .45 Colt Mountain Gun. I shoot Cowboy Action, so I'm used to wheelguns...

It's almost bed time, so the Mt. Gun and the SP 101 are sitting in the unlocked safe bolted on the headboard of the bed, each fully loaded with hollowpoints and with a speedloader alongside of it. I just got the Model 65 and haven't shot it nearly as much as I have the other two, so it's in the main safe in the utility room for the moment. Once I get more acquainted with the 65 it will probably move into the safe in place of the .45, so that both of my safe guns are the same caliber...

On the other side of the bed, nestled securely against the bed frame, is a Maverick Model 88 Security 12 gauge loaded with 6 Hornady Reduced Recoil buckshot loads...

All that having been "said", I used to own a semi-auto, and traded it for a wheelgun. I guess I'm just a wheelgun guy, so I vote for revolvers...
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Old 11-20-2010, 01:32 AM
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Either a revolver or semi auto that you can keep running in any situation.

As far as Glock, or not, I've had M&P pistols that have run every bit as well. More and more police departments are switching to the M&P pistols so that's no longer a valid arguement.

I am confident in all my self defense guns. Otherwise I get rid of them or use them as plinkers.
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Old 11-20-2010, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P@R Fan View Post
Please don't hate me, but for reliability in a semi-auto I don't think anything tops a Glock. Yeah, they're ugly as sin, but they work. The fact that they're in something like 60% of the police holsters in this country says something. I own three, a G22, G23 and G27, all .40 caliber. I trust them implicitly and have for about 14 years.
For a revolver, a K, L or N-Frame S&W is tops, especially in .38 Spl. or .357 Magnum. The Rugers are very good too, and probably stronger.
There are cheaper makers out there, but these will get you through the night.....And back again.
You said the G word so now you're officially hated....JK. I hate glocks cause one blew up in my face and broke my hand. Yes I was using factory ammo. It's in 60% of police holsters cause it's cheap and pretty much idiot proof. Not sayin' you're an idiot. Looks ugly, yes, light, yes, feels good in the hand, yes, do I trust it, um that would be a NO but to each his own. Happy shooting.
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Old 11-20-2010, 06:33 AM
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I carry a 1911 on and off duty but my BUG is a J-frame snubby, does that mean I trust the revolver more? No, it just means that I feel it is the more appropriate of the two as a "get off me gun" of last resort or to be used when I may be physically comromised. Not having to worry about limp wristing, going out of battery, dropping the mag, etc. makes it more appropriate for up close and personal work like contact shots.
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Old 11-20-2010, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P@R Fan View Post
Please don't hate me, but for reliability in a semi-auto I don't think anything tops a Glock. Yeah, they're ugly as sin, but they work. The fact that they're in something like 60% of the police holsters in this country says something. I own three, a G22, G23 and G27, all .40 caliber. I trust them implicitly and have for about 14 years.
For a revolver, a K, L or N-Frame S&W is tops, especially in .38 Spl. or .357 Magnum. The Rugers are very good too, and probably stronger.
There are cheaper makers out there, but these will get you through the night.....And back again.
Glocks are dependable guns. While not expensive, they look cheaper than they are.

Glock is not finding new markets in the US and losing some of their old markets at alarming rates. S&W and Sig are digging into the base of Glock's business. It has also been learned over time that Glocks are not as safe as originally thought.

Yet the bottom line is Glock virtually gave agencies across the US their guns so cheap that bidding against Glock on contracts was useless. It was shown in one mid size city that Glock gave the person with the final decision as to what to buy a $100 gift for each gun the town bought. The guy went with Glock, then retired and then got his money from Glock.

The same happened with foreign autos. Some makers sent cars over here offering zero down, zero interest and six yr financing. Naturally the roads are filled with them and they are being found to not be the dependable cars originally thought. US makers have a difficult time competing with that.
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Old 11-20-2010, 11:54 AM
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When it comes to "serious social situations" I prefer revolvers just due to the simplicity...just point and shoot. No safeties to deal with, don't have to worry about having a certain grip, and malfuntion drills are easy...pull the trigger again. Granted I'm compromising ammo capacity for ease of operation, but I'm not going on drug raids, and to be honest if there are multiple assailants I'm probably screwed anyway.

Ultimately it's about what the carrier feels most comfortable with. Lots of guys wouldn't dream of leaving the house with just a 5 shot revolver, but it works for me. I carry S&W 638 in my pocket and a reload on a speed strip in a belt pouch as well. Once in a while I'll carry my 2-1/2" 686 just for kicks and giggles.
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Old 11-20-2010, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
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The same happened with foreign autos. Some makers sent cars over here offering zero down, zero interest and six yr financing. Naturally the roads are filled with them and they are being found to not be the dependable cars originally thought. US makers have a difficult time competing with that.
What are you talking about? That is how american car companies sell cars. I don't recall forieign makers doing this for the most part.
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Old 11-20-2010, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by brucear77 View Post
When things go bad what is the best and most reliable
Semi-auto Pistols
Revolvers
and what caliber

Depends on which things go bad. Good post by ACP230. While most people lead lives that would show revolvers to be generally more reliable than most autos, it's YOUR auto or YOUR revolver that counts. I was in a situation once (dropped a Ruger NM Super Blackhawk in fine sandy dirt) that reminded me very quickly of all the fine qualities of a GI .45 auto. Not only is it more likely to function under extreme conditions than most other guns, it is also easier to detail disassemble and clean than almost any other gun. A number of guns beat it in field-stripping, but when a gun REALLY needs cleaning, the 1911 shines.
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Old 11-20-2010, 09:04 PM
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Well, I suppose Glock does compare with American 1911.
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Old 11-20-2010, 10:05 PM
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As a retired LEO (1968 - 1997) I carried and still carry revolvers. My agency switched to the Glock model 23 before I retired and I have it in the safe as I write this. While it (Glock 23) has never failed me, my comfort level is with the revolver. It saved my bacon more than once on the street and I still carry either a model 38 (circa early 60's) or a Colt Cobra (circa '68) daily. My bedside gun is a 2.5" model 19-4 and while this may not make sense given the new semi-autos I'm just more at home w/a wheel gun. Bottom line is what you train or practice with the most is your best bet when things go bump in the night. Best to all, Old Cop
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Old 11-24-2010, 12:16 AM
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Model520Fan
Has it about right. I use and carry my revolvers, but sort of baby them. I would have a seizure if I got my model 29 as messed up as I have seen 1911's get and be made right without tools. All my friends have 1911s in their collections, mags, parts and the know-how to keep them going is common.
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Old 11-24-2010, 02:41 AM
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A Glock can shoot circles around most other guns in the right hands, costs about half of what most good 1911's go for these days, and is probably one of the most reliable and easy to repair guns on the planet...yet you hear more folks on here bashing it than praising it. The M-16 is still hanging around after 45 years. What did they say when it came out? "It's ugly. It's made out of plastic." Glocks are just like the M-16 gentlemen, they're not going anywhere for a while. Just go into your local gun dealer and look in the semi-automatic handgun section....I'll bet there's a lot more Glocks in there than anything else. As an aside, the guy I shoot with at the range just sent an M&P9 back to Smith because the barrel/slide fit was so loose he could hardly get on paper. I just sent an M&P 340 back because the barrel shroud was visibly clocked off center to the frame, making accurate shooting impossible. Both of these guns are recently manufactured and both came from the same dealer. If you want my advice, stay the heck away from a NEW Smith and Wesson.
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Old 11-24-2010, 05:42 AM
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A Glock can shoot circles around most other guns in the right hands, costs about half of what most good 1911's go for these days, and is probably one of the most reliable and easy to repair guns on the planet...yet you hear more folks on here bashing it than praising it. The M-16 is still hanging around after 45 years. What did they say when it came out? "It's ugly. It's made out of plastic." Glocks are just like the M-16 gentlemen, they're not going anywhere for a while. Just go into your local gun dealer and look in the semi-automatic handgun section....I'll bet there's a lot more Glocks in there than anything else. As an aside, the guy I shoot with at the range just sent an M&P9 back to Smith because the barrel/slide fit was so loose he could hardly get on paper. I just sent an M&P 340 back because the barrel shroud was visibly clocked off center to the frame, making accurate shooting impossible. Both of these guns are recently manufactured and both came from the same dealer. If you want my advice, stay the heck away from a NEW Smith and Wesson.
As someone who frequents a lot of firearm dealers and can get them to talk about things they often won't with customers, I have to disagree about avoiding new SW guns. Their QC is at its best right now. I would hesitate on buying the early M&P models.

I have to agree with you on the Glock though. Hate it or love it, it set the standard for reliability. Once people take their personal preferences aside, it really is the ideal combat sidearm. I say this not owning a Glock currently.

I do believe that the M&P,if it keeps heading in the direction it is, will end up being the superior platform. Either that or Glock will need to go back and time and fix some of the Gen4 issues. They went from having without a doubt the most reliable 9mm to having sub-par reliability in the Gen4.

Caliber is a good point too. 9mm is Glock territory. Whereas .40SW Glocks have been known to have some hiccups - especially when a tac light is attached. It was designed as a 9mm and modified into a .40 though. The M&P was the opposite - it was designed independantly as a .40SW platform. Same with the .45ACP model - which is why the .45 line is being considered the flagship model and possibly the best combat .45 on the market currently.

I am not knocking Glock, SW, 1911s, or Revolvers. I see them all to be very practical guns. I personally carry an M&P. I chose it over a Glock for a variety of reasons. With that said though, if Mr. Obama called me tonight and asked me to go on a super secret ninja mission to the dusty sandbox of Afghanistan to engage some good ol' Taliban.... I'm taking a Glock 19 with me.

Steve
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Old 11-24-2010, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
Glocks are dependable guns. While not expensive, they look cheaper than they are.

Glock is not finding new markets in the US and losing some of their old markets at alarming rates. S&W and Sig are digging into the base of Glock's business. It has also been learned over time that Glocks are not as safe as originally thought.

Yet the bottom line is Glock virtually gave agencies across the US their guns so cheap that bidding against Glock on contracts was useless. It was shown in one mid size city that Glock gave the person with the final decision as to what to buy a $100 gift for each gun the town bought. The guy went with Glock, then retired and then got his money from Glock.

The same happened with foreign autos. Some makers sent cars over here offering zero down, zero interest and six yr financing. Naturally the roads are filled with them and they are being found to not be the dependable cars originally thought. US makers have a difficult time competing with that.

There is a lot of truth to this post. Glock did a good job of "buying" the Law Enforcement market. I'm not saying it wasn't deserved, but they did offer by far the best price.

Word on the street is that a Glock costs about $120 to make - beginning of production to in a dealer's display case. That leaves a lot of slack when selling the platform. The kickbacks have been reported, but it is more widespread than one would think. Springfield ALLEGEDLY did something very similar - only with gunshops though - they offered something like a $50 comission for each XD sold when they launched it. Wasn't long before it was "Handgun of the Year" - but interestingly couldn't pass almost any Law Enforcement testings.

I would have to disagree on Sig gaining market share though. Their QC has been a little iffy since the leadership change. It would be worthwhile to look at the recent ATF tests between SIG, Glock, and SW. Let's just say the SIGs didn't do too well. I'm a big fan of SIG and am worried that they may turn into a pistol that people are scouring the earth to find a "Pre 20XX" model. It's happened to other major firearm manufacturers.

Glocks use a Hex barrel that doesn't like lead nose bullets. Since lead nose bullets are rare, its really not a big deal. They also make it well known to their owners. The perk to the barrel is that it lasts forever without hardly losing any accuracy at all. Also many of the "kabooms" you hear about are people neglecting to notice a Squib. The picture attached is almost definately a Squib. You hear about it more from Glocks and other Poly guns because steel frame guns don't explode as much as the combat tupperware ones do.

Again, I keep emotional attachment out of firearms, cars, etc. I view all these things as machines. There are pro's and con's to every system. Politics, manufacturing process, price, etc. all come into play when talking about firearm companies. Just try and look at things objectively and remember that samples of one are never a good way to get information. Bad news travels much faster - especially online. And given the volume sold by the major players - the fact we only see a complaint here or there by the more reputable models is a testiment to their reliability.

Just my $0.02. Not directed at anybody inparticular either.

Steve
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Old 11-24-2010, 09:07 PM
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For soldiers, gangsters, and ninjas: probably a high-cap semi-auto.

For the typical civilian for concealed carry, trail or nightstand: revolver.

I love auto vs revolver threads. Lots of re-hashed info but still fun.
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Old 11-25-2010, 02:34 AM
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With that said though, if Mr. Obama called me tonight and asked me to go on a super secret ninja mission to the dusty sandbox of Afghanistan to engage some good ol' Taliban.... I'm taking a Glock 19 with me.

Steve
Wow Steve, you're ready to go fight them nasty Taliban, bad shoulder and all eh? U da' man!

If Barry ever asks me to go on any secret mission, I'd tell him I'll go if he goes..."Don't worry Mr. P, I've got your back, dude".

I just don't want him carrying any hand grenades though...he can barely throw a baseball all the way to home plate.
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Old 11-25-2010, 03:43 AM
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I've put my Glocks aside for the M&P .45 I just got. It's the first Smith I've ever owned and it's a great weapon.

I'm looking to find a revolver that suits me, it seems I've had a lot less FTF with them ,and that's what counts at the end of the day.

This tupperware .45 sure is *******' nice though, I feel confidant behind it.
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:18 AM
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, if Mr. Obama called me tonight and asked me to go on a super secret ninja mission to the dusty sandbox of Afghanistan to engage some good ol' Taliban.... I'm taking a Glock 19 with me.
Steve
Steve, your choice of weapons and calibers might change if you read all the internal reports on officer involved shootings with Glock 19. Fewer and fewer departments are using them. I do not know of any department that is going to the 9mm these days and am fairly sure many of those currently using them will be changing to other calibers.

One local area dept has been using the same guns since 1984 and all the officers wanted a change of caliber. Next year they get their new guns and they will be in .40cal. No more deflected bullets when hitting windshields. No more failure to penetrate car door panels. No more multiple hits being required to stop aggression. Yet the fact that there was little problem with the Glock 19 by the dept in 26 years speaks well for the gun.
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Old 11-26-2010, 12:41 PM
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"Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is." Josey Wales

Fairbairn-Sykes fighting knife and my XD-45...... OK I don't carry a Fairbairn-Sykes fighting knife. It's not legal. I carry a SOG spring assist with a tanto blade.

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Old 11-26-2010, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brucear77 View Post
When things go bad what is the best and most reliable
Semi-auto Pistols
Revolvers
and what caliber
For most encounters as a civilian I now usually carry a revolver (a Smith model 60 in .38 Spl.). The way I see it I'm no longer kicking in doors or hunting Taliban in Afganistan. So the need for a hi-cap pistol lost it's appeal to me, that and there are times it's a pain in the kiester to carry. Not that I don't sometimes pack a 5946 in winter time.
Also I've found that when your at "bad breath" range that an auto can be pushed out of battery if you jam it into the BG! Revolvers don't have that problem, which is why I prefer them, so on some days I'll carry either a Smith m-10 or a Ruger Security Six instead of the 9mm.
I'd suggest you do some reading of the authors like Massad Ayoob, Jeff Cooper, Rex Applegate, and Charles Karwin, and get some training. It's not about the gun so much as it's the individual! Find something you like, shoot the heck out of it to make sure it's reliable, then get some training on when,& how.
Best Dale
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Old 11-26-2010, 01:31 PM
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BadKarma, you make an excellent point. I have a model 36 with a 3" barrel that I carry becuase it is so light. It also happens to be the fastest handgun I own to draw and fire. I think it's the old school slim grip that makes it easy to grab and pull. I have permission at the range I shoot at to practice drawing and firing (If no one else is there).
Thanks for your service to our country. I see you are Navy. If you were kicking in doors and it wasn't on a ship..... you were either a SEAL or a corpsman? My nephew was a SEAL and a doctor for the navy in Iraq.
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Old 11-26-2010, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MotorCityGun View Post
Wow Steve, you're ready to go fight them nasty Taliban, bad shoulder and all eh? U da' man!

If Barry ever asks me to go on any secret mission, I'd tell him I'll go if he goes..."Don't worry Mr. P, I've got your back, dude".

I just don't want him carrying any hand grenades though...he can barely throw a baseball all the way to home plate.
Haha. I got a good laugh out of that. The handgrenade part is classic.

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Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
Steve, your choice of weapons and calibers might change if you read all the internal reports on officer involved shootings with Glock 19. Fewer and fewer departments are using them. I do not know of any department that is going to the 9mm these days and am fairly sure many of those currently using them will be changing to other calibers.

One local area dept has been using the same guns since 1984 and all the officers wanted a change of caliber. Next year they get their new guns and they will be in .40cal. No more deflected bullets when hitting windshields. No more failure to penetrate car door panels. No more multiple hits being required to stop aggression. Yet the fact that there was little problem with the Glock 19 by the dept in 26 years speaks well for the gun.
I feel comfortable with the 9mm. I know it's limitations though. I've done almost all of my training on .40 - but I don't know that I'll buy another .40. It's not a bad cartridge by any means, I've just came to the conclusion that for me personaly - go 9mm or go .45acp.

Given the very fictional situation I listed - I would probably have more discretion at ammo choice.... and it wouldn't be ball. I would probably have something of rifle caliber in my hands too... which overwhelms any handgun caliber.

I recently heard that Delta is using 9mm Glocks, but good luck proving that. I know the Sig M11 is pretty popular with many Spec Ops teams and the M11 or G19 seems to be the unanimous choices for "Contractors". The 1911 is still going strong also.

.45 makes a hell of a sidekick, but we are starting to see our biggest enemy isn't the Taliban or IEDs... its sand. That's where the Glock would shine.

As a CCW, I probably will never have the legal right to shoot through glass or car doors - but I very well may end up in law enforcement soon. I've given it a lot of thought of what caliber I would wish to be issued. From a ballistic standpoint, there's a good case for all of them.


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I'd suggest you do some reading of the authors like Massad Ayoob, Jeff Cooper, Rex Applegate, and Charles Karwin, and get some training. It's not about the gun so much as it's the individual! Find something you like, shoot the heck out of it to make sure it's reliable, then get some training on when,& how.
Best Dale
Probably the most important point - training. Shot placement with effecient speed is key. I would rather take on any street thug with a .45acp than Larry Vickers with a .22lr.

For those with an interest in the development and popularity in the cartridges of .45acp, .40sw and 10mm - I would also second the notion to read up on Jeff Cooper.

Thank you for your service Dale. If you are ever interested in providing some feedback on your gear - what works and what didn't - for my company, I'd be all ears. Nothing crazy to break any sort of opsec.

Great posts on here. I really like this forum.

Steve
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Old 11-26-2010, 03:39 PM
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A Springfield Armory 1911 followed by one of my Sig P229's.
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Old 11-28-2010, 08:44 AM
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1911 45acp
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Old 11-28-2010, 10:31 PM
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When things go bad what is the best and most reliable
Semi-auto Pistols
Revolvers
and what caliber
The one you have trained the most with!
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  #32  
Old 11-29-2010, 09:34 AM
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Hi, Bong-Bong:
How do you carry your Ruger SP-101 Bug "On Duty"?




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I carry a 5906TSW in the summer, a 4046TSW in the spring and fall and a 4583TSW in the winter. I like to keep things simple AND familiar. To date, I have put 15,364 rounds through my 4046 and have had ony 6 malfunctions, 5,500 through the 5906 with 0 malfunctions and 10,232 through my 4583 with only 3 malfunctions. I sold every other handgun I owned, SIG's, Kimbers and my Wilson Combat and just kept my Smith's. Sometimes I'll carry my one non-Smith off duty and that's a Ruger SP101 in .357, which is also my BUG when I'm on duty.
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