Let's see if I understand this. Not only don't you not forcibly resist an unlawful command (which is often a crime), you don't even DISPUTE it? So then, any time an LEO tells you something, no matter how ludicrous, you just meekly go along without protest? Of course it won't go "farther". You've let him MAKE the law instead of enforcing it, and without even telling hm he's wrong. It's like a consent search of your car for no reason or on a pretext. If you CONSENT, you consent. You've got no basis on which to complain after the fact. You've reinforced that LEO in his mistaken belief or malicious assertion that the law is NOT what it says it is. If he doesn't know he's wrong, he'll keep thinking he was right. If he KNOWS he's wrong, you've shown him that he can get away with something.

Don't EVER unlawfully resist an LEO. On the other hand, don't EVER consent to an unlawful request or command.

LEOs are supposed to be there to enforce the LAW, not whim, prejudice or what they WISH the law was. When you reinforce those negative behaviors, you do NOBODY a favor, including the cop.

thoughts on open carry....

- While its legal in some states (including mine), lack of understanding may cause people to be concerned and/or afraid, make that 911 call and then you are, inconvenienced at best, charged with disturbing the peace and who knows what else at worst.

- business can and will refuse service if they know you are armed. its their right.

- from a tactical standpoint, its better if the bad guys don't know you are armed. Its the beauty of concealed carry. If a crime is being committed while you are present, you may be identified as the highest thread by the would-be criminals since they see you carrying a gun. Its best to play sheep and then let the wolf out when you need to protect your life.

- We must remember that our freedom ends when others' begin. While open carry may be a right, if we are disturbing and upsetting people by doing it, and therefore hindering their own personal freedoms, you can and will be held accountable for your actions, both legally and morally.


I will only speak for myself, but Im sure at least one of the members will agree with me. For those of us who sometimes have to openly carry for work and in uniform, it is sometimes an inconvenience and makes us sometimes wish we could just conceal the damn thing and not have everybody give you crazy looks. Open carry its a romantic concept that sounds appealing to civilian gun users, and its not as cool as it sounds.

Cmort, I dont expect to win this one with you either. Even so, let me trouble you with a old mans life experiances. I havent been liveing under a rock my entire life. I did 36 years enforceing "rules". Really, off the top of my head I cant remember once loseing when push came to shove. I dealt daily with thousands of people. All my life I have known many people to try buck the system. Some were close friends. In all cases they led a troubled life! Whether it was lockheed where I was a guard, the movie studios where I was a "studio cop" or the conservation dept or several years in the national park service, we always had obscure BS rules or laws we could enforce that we never did unless pushed in a corner. I am sure LEO also have the same.
A almost long forgotton incident comes to mind. Let me use it to try and illistrate my point. Bare with me.
I was guarding the empty plant at lockheed one christmas morning. About sun up my chief, (That also was a personnal friend) come flying through my gate. He had his wife with him and was techaicly wrong as she wasnt a employee. He didnt stop at the gate. I was in fact sitting relaxed as I had 0 traffic or business. He thumped his bald head as he zoomed through meaning "put yer hat on!"
That ate at me. We recently had a new order posted on the board that finaly now us guards could take our hats off if we were inside a guard post and things were dead or slow. I knew how he was and that we were soon going to lock horns!
Evidently he and his wife probley were to a party and hadnt even been to bed yet and for some reason had came into the plant to pick up a personnal car.
Soon she came out and flew through the gate without stopping. Techinitly, another no-no.
Comes now, my chief who pulled over got out of his car and started to light into me. Feralmerril, ya got yer hat off! I politely showed him the order he had just put out a week ago! Now let me give you a little background on my chief. He was a decorated world war two vet that drove those landing craft like eddie albert did. He had been a boxing champion in his fleet. When he got out he was a professional fighter plus retired as a chicago cop. Also he had been a football player.
When I reminded him about that order, he stopped and thought. Then he pulled that old cop trick where when proved wrong they are going to get you on something else!
He said, well------"ya looked relaxed"! That was about 40 years ago. In those days I thought myself tough too. Also had my principals. I challanged my chief to a fight! We actualy started to square off! Lucky for me, we didnt fight. We both came to our senses when I blurted out, "Fer christs sake george it`s christmas!" Chief George paused, come to his senses and stuck out his hand and appologised! That was okay, but it got old and embarrassing when he appologised every time
he seen me for the next six months! Hope I got my point across here cmort. Thanks for lisening.

I can no more "hinder" another persons personal freedoms by open carrying than I can by wearing an elephant or donkey lapel pin, a yarmulka or an NRA ballcap or sweatshirt.

Where it's lawful to carry openly, you have the right to not own or carry firearms. You have NO right to use the force of law to compel someone to conform to your personal preferences or prejudices. I don't want to see two men kiss in public. I have NO right to COMPEL them not to, regardless of my personal esthetic preferences. If I don't like it, I can (and have) look at something else.

I have in fact been publicly harassed for wearing an NRA ballcap. Is there the SLIGHTEST doubt that I have the right to wear that cap? Should I NOT wear it in order to cater to the prejudices of anti-gun bigots if it spoils their illusion that EVERYBODY hates guns? Aren't I equally "disturbing and upsetting" them and "hindering their personal freedom" to live in a world of make believe?

sgtvilla I agree with most of what you say and what I disagree with is not worth arguing over ;D. I much prefer CCW for most of the reasons you mentioned. When I did open carry I felt it was a necessary nuisance. 1911A1s get heavy after a while and for me holstered firearms tend to bump into things. I'm increasingly glad though I live in a State when open carry is mot much of an issue any more because occasionally I do open carry.

cmort666 has stated to us he has been harassed by the police over alleged gun law violations, procedures or maybe even common sense acts. He's also been harassed for wearing his NRA cap in public. Maybe it's just me, but he appears to have a big chip on his shoulder over anyone, police and/or a private citizen questioning his right to carry a sidearm or wear a particular cap. No one on this forum is going to give him "his" correct answer. You state you know the gun laws of Ohio. Well what's your beef? Follow the letter of the law and if you come across an officer who doesn't know the law as well as you, I'd suggest you carry a copy of it to show him. You'll be happy because you had the opportunity to proof the officer wrong, and you can go on the gun forums and tell everyone how stupid cops are regarding gun laws. I hope you don't consider wearing a Steeler cap in Browns country. You might be harassed. Unbelievable!

JamesArthur60, A few years ago in Ohio firearms owners were getting harassed when we were not breaking the law. It took a group effort to get the laws changed and then get police departments on board with the new laws. Which is why the language was put in the law that police departments have to reimburse fees when someone is wrongly charged with breaking the law. THAT was something that they could understand.

That and the Open Carry walks in areas that were not very good at keeping their Officers up to date on changes in Ohio law.

I still agree with JA60 that there is a strong chance that the person who openly carries a weapon will be harassed.

As I said earlier, carry a copy of the law, be prepared to show it to the soccer mom that asks if you're an off-duty cop, or to an officer that you may have to teach. Be prepared to answer lots of questions and get lots of stares. Be prepared to give up your weapon to an officer and go down to the station to explain what your intentions are. Be prepared to argue your right to carry, and to possibly spend some time in the process.

We do thank you for going through the hassle because it really will help the next guy who openly carries. If the soccer moms out there see 100 people a day carrying weapons, it will become a non-issue!

You apparently believe:

1. It is the job of police to enforce whim rather than the law.
2. It's proper behavior to publicly berate law abiding citizens for lawful activities with which you disagree.

And I'll just throw out that the nitwit who hassled me about my NRA ballcap also wanted to "ban" the NRA. When I pointed out that the last time organizations started getting banned, we somehow misplaced 6,000,000 Jews. His response was that "he wasn't sure that was such a bad thing". That kind of attitude seems to be rather common in anti-gunners and their supporters and hangers on.

I suspect that you don't hassle total strangers in public places about things that are none of your concern... probably because somewhere in the back of your mind you realize that some of them react negatively in a physical way.

Yes, you are correct about carrying the references to the laws. Our State AG prints a booklet that summarizes the Ohio firearms law. Many of us keep a copy handy.

you can't guarantee this or anything else

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KK4EMO

LOL...no james...it's NOT just you.... cmort has an endless and impressive array of woe as me cop stories...stay tuned...there will be more to come i'm sure

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KK4EMO

cmort...can you produce all this on the tape for us to hear?you know the tape recorder that you always carry and encourage others to carry?

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KK4EMO

LOLOL james...dont you just feel all better now that cmort has told you how you believe?

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KK4EMO

I grew up in Ohio and am now a Michigan resident. Both states have very similar laws in concern to firearms, however there are some notable differences.

Michigan requires that every single handgun made post 1898 be registered, Ohio doesn't. Both states considering a loaded firearm as Concealed transport, which means you need a permit to carry a loaded gun in your car. In addition, both states require that any firearm be in a locked container that isn't accessable to the driver, meaning the glove compartment or center consol doesn't qualify. If you don't have a trunk, the firearm must be in a locked case away from the drivers immediate reach. If you carry a loaded magazine or speed loader in Ohio without a CCW, you can be charged with a violation of the Concealed Weapons Law, in Michigan you can transport these devices loaded as long as the firearm isn't loaded.

Take note of that, it means that you'll have to load any magazine outside of your vehicle in public, do this while sitting in your car and you can face charges for concealed carry without a permit. Now, if you don't think that loading a magazine in public won't attract attention, think again.

To be honest, I find the thought of Open Carry without a Concealed Weapons Permit to be more work than it's worth. Bottomline, GET A PERMIT. Ohio is Shall Issue and it's a fairly quick process in most counties. As far as the cost is concerned, I've spent more on ammo in one month that it cost me to get a Michigan CPL, cut back on some range time and stop eating takeout for lunch and it becomes very affordable.

Yeah, 10,000+ years of human history is OBVIOUSLY wrong...

I started carrying a digital voice recorder BECAUSE of that incident. I never leave home without it.

In all fairness I need to point out that it was a very small group of LEOs who were acting illegally against Ohioans were chose to open carry. It is also very likely that the actions of those LEOs reflected the attitude of their respective city officials, though likely not those if the city populace. Which is why we had to go through a long process of legal battles and legislative revisions.

The sad thing is that the lasting result of those battles is a general mistrust of ANY police organization by firearms owners. Not necessarily the officer themselves but donations and other support from firearms owners of things like the FOP, Mounted Sheriffs, etc. has dropped off significantly. These organizations came out opposing the adoption of a CCW permit process in Ohio and as a result reflected very negatively on LEOs in general. Fortunately for everyone that seems to be changing for the better.

They've also recently come out against CCW reform in Ohio, babbling nonsense about people "twirling guns on their fingers". The leopard doesn't change his spots.

of course you dont.....

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KK4EMO

LOLOL...somehow i thought you would have a problem coming up with it..

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KK4EMO

I agree completely, and couldn't have said it better.

There's a forum here in the Northwest that I don't even waste my time with anymore because of all the moronic bickering about "open vs. concealed". I suggested once that since everyone already has their mind made up about it, maybe people should just agree to disagree, and let it be. That didn't happen. I hope it does here.

So far, this forum and the Colt forum are the two most intelligent and polite forums I've encountered. I hope this one stays that way.

Of course I don't. It's been very useful to me, especially when a 300+ pound anti-abortion protester tried to pick a fight with me while I was taking pictures of him illegally blocking the view from the sunken driveway of an attorney friend's office building.

I agree that open carry is completely legal in Ohio, but there are two basic problems. One is that you have to walk everywhere you go. The minute you get into a motor vehicle you are illegal. The other is the public. There's a certain percentage of crackpots out there. They're going to call and say you had the gun in your hand or even were pointing it at people. Believe me, people make these kind of false complaints all the time to get fast action. When the police are dispatched, because they have to be and have to investigate, you will have your guard up and a situation ripe for a misunderstand and perhaps an altercation exists. If the police get a complaint about you, they will want to know if you have a criminal record, etc. You can see where this is going. I strongly support both open and concealed carry with a permit, but some actions, although legal, can put you into a situation that may not be worth the risk. Just get a permit. Be safe.

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Loyalty Above All.. but Honor

Isn't there some law about filing a false police complaint?

Clarification:

Open carry WITHOUT A CHL is illegal in a vehicle in Ohio. With a CHL it's perfectly legal. In fact, before the law was revised, carry in a vehicle HAD to be open.

I live in Kentucky...about 10 minutes from Ohio. I open carry almost daily in both states, and in mostly medium to large cities. I've been open carrying for a few years and have yet to be stopped or questioned, harassed, or had 911 called on me. I open carry in grocery stores, gas stations, restaurants, banks, department stores, parks, fairs, malls, etc.
To say that to open carry is asking for trouble isn't necessarily true. I've watched several LEOs look down at my Glock and just go about their business like they're supposed to. Open carry in both states is becoming more and more 'normal' and understood.
I'm not saying that you'll never have an issue, but some folks on here are giving the impression that you'll constantly be bombarded with legal issues, jail time, and worse if you decide to open carry. It's just not the case.

I open carry in Ohio almost as much as I conceal carry. I haven't had any issues. I have a CHL so I can open carry in my vehicles also. As long as you aren't in Cincinnati, Columbus, Akron, Canton, Cleveland people don't even give you a second look. I do not OC in the above cities. People are sheeple honestly they pay no attention. I walk right past police officers and all I get is that "hey/hi" head nod guys do.

I have had one Guy stare me down and watch my every move while shopping at Walmart. No 911 call he just watched me while near him in electronics.

I've had children notice and say "mommy mommy that man has a gun on his side" mommy's response is usually "so what." Or "yes its legal for him to"

The general public seeing law abiding citizens carrying can only help our cause by making it more the normal.

One thing I can tell you if you OC is not to fuss with your firearm. As a matter of fact ignore don't keep looking at it. I have been OCing regularly for a year or two. I walk around confident and I don't freak out or concern myself with people looking at me. I act normal. Just my two cents.

In Ohio without a CHL you can open carry on a bicycle but not a car, motorcycle, truck, boat, ATV (if operated on public land/road), etc. With a CHL you can OC in a vehicle.