I'm not clear as to what you mean, in this case, with the word "class". But when it comes to concealed handguns, looks and what I think you mean with the word "class" play no role, only function and effectiveness.

A number of years ago I bought a Kimber Ultra Carry II, in part because I thought what a good looking, and good feeling-in-my-hand gun it was, as well as thinking that a quality 45acp would be the perfect gun for concealed carry. But despite its positive attributes, it functioned horribly. While it was very accurate for the small size barrel, it constantly was failing with FTE and FTF. Despite 2 trips back to Kimber for repairs it never approached even minimally acceptable levels of reliability, and was traded off . Ultimately the guns that I own are useful tools, and if they are not truly "useful", I have no need of them.

Vito - you are certainly correct on the functionality and reliability issues. BUT - Life is way too short to carry an ugly gun.

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On the Oak Savannah

Maybe the answer is to carry two guns! One for personal defense, and the other to just look good.

Here is Texas, starting Jan 01, 2016, we can!

But.....I won't, except at designated BBQ areas (see other thread on BBQ guns).

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On the Oak Savannah

For many years I carried a Colt Vest Pocket .25, it was the one to take when nothing else would fit. Always felt that it was better then nothing and I wasn't out to fight a war with it, just get me out of a bad situation,maybe?
But the little .25 has been retired and a Ruger LCP has taken its place!

Volunteer to be shot with one and you will then be able to answer your own question.

I would love to have a Colt or Browning vest pocket .25. For the sake of argument , lets say, you are walking down the street and a BG has discovered you are carrying.... he grabs for your main carry, as you lock your strong hand on your weapon and spin away from your assailant you draw your little ,25 from your weak side pocket.... a few rounds in his direction may be enough to make him relent giving you the chance to draw your main EDC.....
just say'n

I confess, I surely don't know the answer.

But this thread's been running for four years now...you'd think someone should've figured it out by now.

To answer the OP's question directly.

Not for trusting mine or my families lives with.
Ground Squirrels, Skunk and Opossum maybe.
Carry what you want but choose carefully grasshopper.



Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

I think I understand the Texas concept of a gun to carry to a BBQ.

But what do you carry when going out for Chinese?

A Norinco 1911?

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C & L

I don't understand why anybody would eat Chinese. Larry

It is better than nothing. There are so many better options today. If I am going to carry, and bet my life on it, I would rather have a serious two shot derringer than a 25. I think a 38 is about as low as I would go and there are some devastating rounds available. Good luck.

My uncle retired after a long career with the Long Beach Police. He and several other sgt. Worked Narcotics and would tell and tease about war stories. One was very skinny and it made him I deal playing a junkie. He carried a 25 acp beneath a watch with a thick, wide band. A 70's thing. Deal went bad and he pulled and killed both with the 25. All shots, minus a miss were neck and face shots. He always got grief for even doing a "speed" reload with the tiny mag release on the bottom. None of them liked Narcotics and were happy to move on. They all had one somewhere on them. Baby Browning or Beretta 950. I have 3 in 25 and one in 22 short which is much better for practice. I also have a licensed copy Baby Browning made by PSP with a factory hard chrome. The Baby is precision made and always reliable. The Beretta are big compared to the Baby. There are times when the Baby is a second,very handy with a spare mag. The Jet fires I will pay a 100.00 for in very good condition and they show up in pawn shops often enough. If you pick one up you might enjoy one.

Attached Images

image.jpg (60.7 KB, 82 views)

And then, there is this..

YouTube

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Loyalty Above All.. but Honor

I know this is an old thread, but to the OP and anybody else: If I am getting shot at with a .25 cal, yessir I will take it very seriously. If I am looking for a small gun to carry, not so serious.

Have a blessed day.

Vasily Blohkin was the greatest (or worst) mass murderer in history, so far as personally killing people.

As Stalins #1 hit man during the great purges, he was what you might call a hands-on leader who executed tens of thousands of people with one round each from a .25 ACP. That included around 7,000 Polish POWs.

Of course, that one round was muzzle range to the base of the skull of a helpless prisoner.

I've seen these .25 talks on a lot of forums,and I've had a few conversations at gun shops-what do I think?

A gun is a gun,even the .22 will kill you.

That said I've carried a .22 and I want to get a good name .25 but I say honestly if you do carry one think of it less as a gun and more as a knife i.e. it's something you'd use at contact distance,if you wanted to shoot farther I'd not trust it past,say,three yards at most.

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Life's a grave,dig it!

In the late 60's when I was a teenager, I hung around an auto parts store run by a fellow about 350 lbs. He was displaying a .25 auto and it went off accidentally shooting him in his stomach. Surprisingly, he squeezed the open entry like a pimple and the bullet popped out. He put a band-aid on it and a week later it was almost healed. He was only wearing a T shirt so there was no many layers of denim or leather to go through, the .25 ACP was not impressive.
Years later while in the Army, I witnessed a fight gone bad when one guy pulled out a .25 and shot his opponent in the mouth striking him in his front tooth. The bullet bounced off his tooth landing on the ground in from of him. All he suffered was a cracked front tooth.
So, in closing.....I have little confidence in protecting myself or anyone else with a .25 ACP!

Yep. Point blank, to the skull, no fighting back. Not hard to get the job done. Even if they weren't dead instantly they were dead anyway

It works on bears.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Stooped bear.

Do want to see pictures of my homicide. Hell's Angel shot 7 times with a Colt .25 ACP.

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Don Mundell

Yep.

That's why I get tickled when I see posts like "so-and-so has killed people and he carries a..."

Based on that, the .25 ACP should be the stopper of stoppers. Blohkin killed by far more people with a handgun than anyone.

Not exactly a record to be admired.

I represented a young man charged with attempted murder. He shot the complainant in the center of the forehead with a Beretta .25.
The bullet bounced of the fellow's forehead and was a found on the floorboard of my client's car. The complainant was in the process of pulling my client out through the driver's window at the time. It did change the complainant's mind but that and a bruise was about it.

Whether or not the bad guy shot ultimately dies isn't the measuring stick I would use.

Here's some information I found interesting. There's lots of data but the category I think is more telling is the percentage of those shot who were not incapacitated no matter how many times they were hit. From .380ACP through 45ACP the percentages are consistent, hovering around 15% (13-17%) failure to incapacitate. However, calibers below .380 jumped to 30-40%. .25ACP shows 35% failure to incapacitate.

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

I've read that article before.

Not defending the .25 acp, but I have severe concerns about the authors credibility. He does not state his credentials. Unless he is a professional working for a large LE agency as an instructor, firearms examiner, or coroner, how did he gain access to so many people involved in shootings?

If he was a poor college student in 1992, his " ten year study" had to have begun some time later, yet completed it in time to publish the results in 2011.

Also he doesn't track the ammunition. The majority of shootings with a .25 acp are almost surely by someone who is not well trained and with FMJ ammo. Not defending the round.

I had a .25acp pistol once. I prefer a .22lr, and have one of them now.

Of all my 30+ years of carry, there was only one time I had to pull my gun. I walking in the woods with my fence and came across three teen bucks who were clearly very high and looking for trouble. That gun was a minuscule Jennings J22. I produced it when the situation went from uncomfortable to threatening. Fortunately for all, it was enough stop everything cold and send the group stuttering and sputtering down the path.

So Yes. A 25 acp carried is better than your 45acp left at home.

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Dave

I think the data is too consistent and follows what I would expect to simply dismiss as some type of big misunderstanding or fluke. In any event, it's the best collection of real world shootings I have ever seen.

The difference in head shot / torso hit percentages is about 10% less with the 25acp which would be expected from a physically smaller mouse gun among even reasonably competent shooters, but doesn't seem to account for a doubling in failure to incapacitate. I'm sure there's a wide variety of RN and HP ammo among all the calibers listed. How does that somehow explain the huge jump in failure to incapacitate for the .25 but not the other larger calibers? The doubling+ of failure to incapacitate among calibers under .380ACP is glaring.

Where did your notion of a poor student come from?

Greg Ellifritz' credentials are found quite easily.

Greg is a 20-year veteran police officer, spending 13 years as the full time tactical training officer for his central Ohio agency. In that position, he was responsible for developing and instructing all of the in-service training for a 54-officer police department. Prior to his training position, he served as patrol officer, bike patrol officer, bike patrol coordinator, sniper and field training officer for his agency.

He has been an active instructor for the Tactical Defense Institute since 2001 and a lead instructor for TDI’s ground fighting, knife fighting, active shooter, impact weapons, and extreme close quarters shooting classes.

Greg holds instructor, master instructor, or armorer certifications in more than 75 different weapons systems, defensive tactics programs, and law enforcement specialty areas. In addition to these instructor certifications, Greg has trained with many of the leading firearms and edged weapons instructors in the country.

Greg has been an adjunct instructor for the Ohio Peace Officer’s Training Academy, teaching firearms, defensive tactics, bike patrol, knife defense and physical fitness topics. He has taught firearms and self defense classes at the national and international level through the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors, The American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers, Rangemaster Tactical Conference, and Ohio Association of Chiefs of Police.

He has a Master’s degree in Public Policy and Management and has written for several publications and websites including: ‘The Firearms Instructor”, “Ohio Police Chief”, “Combat Handguns”, Survivalblog.com, “Concealed Carry Magazine”, Primedia’s “Personal & Home Defense Annual”, and “American Handgunner”.
- See more at: Active Response Training

Because he said he was a poor college student when he purchased the Sanow-Marshall book.

I must've posted before having my coffee though. For some reason I thought 1992 to 2011 was a 9-year span

Interesting that this thread should pop back up right now as I just recently acquired this little Colt 1908 Vest Pocket from another member here.



I had it with me at the range last week and was surprised to find that I could easily dump six rounds into the head of an IPSC silhouette target as fast as I could pull the trigger from about 20 ft. In fact, I fired just over 100 rounds out of it that day and it never missed a beat.
Would I give up my usual EDC for it? Not hardly. But if circumstances called for a small, discrete carry gun, I'd trust it.

This thread has made want to carry my Vest Pocket Colt some...with something bigger to accompany it.

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C & L

One thing I never mentioned...and I hesitate to but....

I always said if I had to use a .22 or a .25 I might be "aiming low" i.e. between the legs! I figger either is pretty lousy for a head shot and will work to an extent with a com shot but....

You tag the boys and I'd guess anybody would be more preoccupied with other things then whatever bad they had planned for you

Yea I'm a crazy person.

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Life's a grave,dig it!

Years ago I carried a .25 acp laced into the top of my boot when on duty and before I could afford the S&W Model 38 I purchased later. I bought it at a Western Auto Store in town and wound up giving it to a relative who lived out in the country.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

That happens with much bigger guns.

.25 ACP="Eye Gun"

.25 ACP="Eye Gun"
Best ammo: Sellier & Bellot 50 grain FMJ (2.5" bbl, 781 fps, 68 ft/lbs)
Full length bullet reduces the chance of rim-lock. FMJ enhances penetration.

In my amateur opinion:

If S&W took advantage of modern metallurgy and made a 6-shot, moon clip-fed M frame with a 1.75" barrel chambered for .25 ACP +P, loaded with some nasty hardcasts, that would be one bad*ss BUG.

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an actual conservative

Any weapon is better than no weapon.

In my opinion they have their place. As County Corner I saw 2 deaths to 25 cal, so the do work.

Not a 25 auto I keep a High Standard 2 mag derringer in my pocket all the time.

Read in a Q & A in a gun magazine years ago, "A 25 in your pocket is better than a 44 mag under the bed at home"

I own a 25cal jetfire that I bought new a long time ago. It killed a rattler close to 50 years ago.

In my opinion, no. As a young man I drove a Checker cab in Chicago for one year. Famous story of a Black cabbie from our barn who picked up a fare that proceeded to shoot him in the back of the head while at a traffic light. The cabbie turned around and beat the **** out of the guy and then proceeded to drive them both to the ER. I had a baby Browning at the time and sold it shortly after. No .25 acp for me

What strikes me about all these tales of .25 woe are every single one I've ever read I think "that's a lousy way to use one" and then we have the cases (which I believe more frankly) of people becoming very dead by the thing.

There's a lot of things that have to come into play with the caliber,one I remember reading that I found interesting was a guy who said he had an el cheapo Raven and it would bounce rounds off of things regularly but then he got a Beretta and punched holes in an old washing machine....so maybe a junk gun makes for junk results but a good make does good things.

The most laughed at rounds are the .25 and the .22 and I'd be happy with either if it's all I had,and I'd even carry it if I felt lazy.

I really do think the tales of it are hokum.

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Life's a grave,dig it!

Ounce for ounce, I think I prefer the .32 ACP. My Kel-Tec P32 is as small and compact as I've ever seen, is reliable, inexpensive, and outperforms a .25 by a significant margin. .32 doesn't expand much, but penetrates more than most folks think it can...

My dad had a Kel-Tec in 32 ACP that he carried when on his Harley....maybe it is still around for some backyard testing....

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On the Oak Savannah

Just because you don't want to be shot with it does not make it a good choice; that is another phrase that needs to be dropped from our vocabulary. With the small 9mm or even 380 choices available now I see no use for one.

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K & N S&W revolvers

No. Not possible. It's the Rodney Dangerfield of calibers.

As it should be. The very first gun I bought was a 25acp Baby Brownie. The tiny size made it attractive, as this was years and years before legal concealed carry was possible, and before there was such a thing as metal detectors at the airports. But once I learned even the smallest amount about guns and calibers, I traded it off for a 38 Special revolver. I remember that the 25 cost me $43, NIB.

"Can the 25 acp be taken seriously?"

Yes, if it is being shot at you.

Have a blessed day,

Leon