Somewhere I read a study on all the NYPD shootings going back 100+ years.

Faded memory Recalls bits and pieces... most incidents involving police deaths were essentially ambushes, in the dark, in terrible lighting conditions. I imagine many were in pursuit of the BG

Survival rates logically increased with distance, movement, and finding cover.

I recall the average fight being 6 feet and 3 shots in total.

It changed my way of thinking from Glocks and high capacity to a snubbie in a pocket.

I think common sense, coupled with awareness, not allowing other within a certain "personal zone" helps to eliminate a lot of factors resulting in possible confrontations... if all else fails there is Plan B which is 158 grains exiting right front coat pocket.

It's not overconfidence, but I'm comfortable with the belief that I already have the drop on the BG. Better than drawing in a no win situation or begging for mercy.

I know one guy who walked in on a hold-up in progress, in uniform, and was taken by surprise when the hold-up man, who was standing in line, put a gun to his head and told him not to go for his gun. He went for his gun from the holster and shot the guy in the gut with a .357 Super Vel round and dropped him. Another guy, in plain clothes, walked out of a liquor store and was held-up on the sidewalk. Bad guy put a gun to his head and told him to "check it in". Good guy said: "OK, I'm just getting my wallet, don't shoot..." And drew his Glock from his waistband near his wallet and shot the hold-up man in the throat.

I know of another local guy who was robbed outside a bar. He turned over his wallet like they told him to and they shot him anyway. He pulled his gun(s) after being shot and killed one of the hold-up men and wounded the other.

Draw speed a myth? To each his own I guess. It's all just "bench racing" until it's you making the decisions for real.

Quite the heated debate! All the posts here assume the BG will have a gun. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most armed attacks involve a knife? In that case draw speed could save your life.
The reason I applied for my ccw was a vagrant approached me in broad daylight and pulled a folding knife threatening to cut me.

"The reason I applied for my ccw was a vagrant approached me in broad daylight and pulled a folding knife threatening to cut me. "


I have heard of people like that, bringing a knife to a gunfight.. Seems like they lose almost all the time..


Dave

The last disagreement I had with someone that wanted to "Borrow" my wallet pulled a knife on me. Situation was close enough that I could not get to the M37 fast enough without getting sliced. When she turned to the woman that was with me the last thing she expected was a Stanley 30' Fat Max tape measure slap to the side of the head. Too bad she fell through the glass in the window.

Class III

I've noticed that the last few dozen US enemies don't take care of their wounded
until After the Battle, if at all...some considered it very dishonorable to get wounded & not die...
some others just had no Esprit de Corps...which meant if you got shot, you were on your own...
same for gang members...unless a relative is on scene, you fall, you are on your own...

Conversely, a dead enemy can't shoot back...
whereas a wounded one can definitely ruin your day by continuing to shoot...
which to me means, incapacitate, then finalize every enemy you come across,
so that they cannot do the same to you. Treat 'em like zombies. Make Sure.

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

A gun in hand is quicker than the draw, if you are aware of your surroundings. If I had missed all the warning signs and allowed the bad guy to get the drop on me, depending on the distance between us, I would be closing the gap to deal with the weapon or look for something heavy to get behind until I could get to mine. Out drawing someone is "Hollyweird" BS and will get you hurt!

Observation: No one mentions observing the bad guy's posture, demeanor, gun and distance.

Guy standing 6' in front of me, visibly cocked weapon in hand held steadily in a "normal" position, calm enough to appear to know what he's doing? Yes sir, here is my money.

Guy 10' in front of me, uncocked DA revolver - especially a SatNiteSpec *** - held sideways gangsta style, twitching?

I'm going for my gun while dodging like hell.

Guy at any distance dumb enough to have a 1911 style uncocked? Call the meat wagon... Nobody said criminals are smart.

A guy can observe a lot by just watching... YB.

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Made my dog proud

Guy 10' in front of me, uncocked DA revolver - especially a SatNiteSpec *** - held sideways gangsta style, twitching?

I'm going for my gun while dodging like hell.

In that case, don't dodge, you might dodge right into his errant shot

Kinda like the safest place to stand on the golf course is the middle of the fairway! LOL.

Why not be quick on the draw? It then gives you more time to place a shot even if milliseconds.

Look at the reverse.

what are the disadvantages of a quick draw? NONE.

+1

When I was shooting USPSA regularly and practicing regularly, we did the "Bill Drill". At 7 yds from the holster, hands at shoulder level, draw at the buzzer & place 6 rounds into the A zone (about the size/shape of a the lid of a small shoe box) as fast as possible without missing. Speed up til you miss; slow down til you're back on 100% hits.

On a good day, 2.1 seconds, hands at shoulder height, from the holster, I could run off 6 hits.

Granted, an untrained bad guy can shoot a lot of rounds in 2 seconds, too, but will he hit anything?

Here's a random video from youtube of a guy doing a really good Bill Drill from concealment: 6 rounds on target in 1.98 seconds.

Oops! How do you do direct video?

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Made my dog proud

Wild Bill Hickok ? Davis Tutt shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wild Bill started with the gun in hand. The holster was to store the gun until it was needed. If you knew it would be needed, it was in your hand.(Wild Bill cheated-he practiced shooting his Colt)

Along with the reports of men getting killed in gun fights, there are also reports of guns being emptied at close range, reloaded, and emptied again, with no one killed except the piano player.

I think some of the modern shooters are probably better gun fighters than our illustrious cowboys were. More practice, better equipment, less booze.

OK. Here is the youtube link.

Guy drawing from concealment; 6 rounds on target (7 yrds) in 1.98 seconds.

Bill Drill

Bear in mind - in the OP's scenario, you are acting. The bad guy would be reacting. Those of you who don't shoot a LOT, but do shoot enough to know, will realize how easy it is to pull that first shot way off target, especially with a DA revolver or long DA first shot from a DA/SA semi.

I have not been in combat and realize that no one but those who have really know what they'd do. But thinking things through ahead of time AND a lot of practice on the fundamentals gives you a better chance if things hit the fan.

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Made my dog proud

I don’t know how often it happens but it does happen.

When John Wesley Hardin killed sheriff’s deputy Charlie Webb in Comanche Texas the two met and exchanged words and Hardin dared Webb to arrest him.

According to witness Webb stepped back, put his cigar in his teeth, said “No, God Damn you I’m not afraid of you.” and drew his gun.

None of the testimony said that either was especially faster than the other but Hardin shot first, hitting Webb in the face and killing him.

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Retired Career Security Guard

If you are talking about the incident I think you are the security guard wasn't in the room when the shooter started firing , he came into the room behind and to the side of the shooter and then engaged him.

He didn't draw against the guy

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Retired Career Security Guard

It depends...

The draw is as important as moving. Moving is as important as the draw...

As pointed out, the average banger or street thug isn't a crack shot... moving makes it even harder.

Gun, knife... OODA loop wins. I'm surprised no one has mentioned it already.

In all the situations pointed out in the thread, the bad guy has the gun and expects compliance. How is it they end up shot?

They don't expect the other person to draw a gun and shoot them.

I think Wyatt Earp said it first. Whoever did, they're both right.

From what I've read, the winner is the guy who gets to cover first, rarely the fastest draw or the best shot.
In a mugging situation, it's generally quicker to take his than to use yours. Under 5 feet between me and the gun, the gun is mine. That's not cockiness, that's confidence in my training.

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Just the opinion of a kid

I hear you, but observation goes right out the window when confronted with a gun for most people. I mean, I agree that all the things you mention could change how you respond. Alas, having the barrel of a gun pointed at you, usually limits your perception.

I'm not saying you can't, but I'd like to test this.

I teach a gun take away technique that is very effective. However, it doesn't work unless you get closer than 5 feet. We practice it by having the "bad guy" say "bang" as soon as the defender moves. I'm slow, but I haven't been shot yet and I've always gotten the gun. From 5 feet I think the defender would always get shot.

This is just a thought and I'm not "calling you out" or anything like that. I'd just like to work with you and learn. I'm always open to learning more.

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Freedom isn't free.

Having had tunnel vision (dual tunnels, actually) from staring down the barrels of an illegal, sawed off side-by-side 12 gauge being waved around my temple during a traffic stop by a - shall we charitably say - troubled officer whose troubles got him sued and off the force eventually... I agree 100%.

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Made my dog proud

When I was instucting we used the statistic that it takes the average person 2 1/2 seconds to recognize that the situation is changing and that the other person is drawing a gun. 2 1/2 seconds is an eternity in a world counting actions in hundredths of a second.

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"Sacramento" Bruce Conklin

Yep.

Look at the video link in post # 62.

Drawing from concealment and popping 6 rounds on target in 1.98 seconds...

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Made my dog proud

Aloha,

You can either Believe or Not believe what's coming next.

Hawaii has a LOT of people with all kinds of martial arts training.

In a nutshell, I have been told on more that one occasion,

a good martial artist with street experience and knows firearms is capable

of Disarming a person pointing a loaded gun at him inside of 25 feet.

I personally know several guys who could do this. I never let them practice on me as I don't like getting hurt.

They're now a lot Older and slower and they All own guns and know how to use them.

Also, think Tueller Knife Drill. I think the distance has been increased to 25'

Count me with the "NOT believing it" group!

I have no doubt that you've been told this. However, if a shooter has his gun out and pointed at a person, they will easily get at least one shot off before 25' can be covered. Yes, I believe the gun can be taken away, but not without being shot in the process.

You don't have to hurt someone to demonstrate this.

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Freedom isn't free.

There was a bit of surveillance video circulating recently in which a sheriff's deputy was accosted by at least three individuals while at a gas pump. His gun side is away from the perp, allowing him to draw apparently unnoticed. He fires, fatally wounding the perp nearest him.

Cops: Off-duty sergeant fatally shoots teen during robbery - Chicago Tribune

Agreed. Which contradicts all the folks who think it's a point of dogma that the handgun shouldn't leave the holster unless on its way to pulling the trigger on someone. Can't understand why that mantra remains so pervasive. There are plenty of good reasons to draw one's handgun apart from its being step one in a draw-and-fire motion.

That scene was reproduced in Enter The Dragon, where Bruce Lee was the Master who left the blowhard in a dinghy.

I agree with this, but the logic is still sound. The idea of not drawing unless ready to shoot is as much a mindset as it is a practice.

If you have time, obviously it's better to have your gun in your hand. What I want people to think about is that when you present your gun, you must be ready to use it. Too many operate from the misconception that just seeing a gun will end the confrontation. It may. In fact a huge percentage of crimes are stopped just by seeing a gun. The problem comes when just seeing it doesn't stop the threat. Hesitation can get you killed.

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Freedom isn't free.

I don't disagree with anything you said there, as it doesn't contradict what I said.

The Tueller Drill set the distance between a knife-armed assailant and a person wearing a gun in a duty holster at 21 feet as the minimum for the gun carrier to react and shoot. If one is carrying concealed, the distance increases to at least 24 feet and 30 feet is not enough for pulling a gun on a knife-armed assailant to be considered unreasonable. And all the Tueller Drill proves is that a knife-armed assailant can reach you before you can draw and fire. Whether your shot is effective or not doesn't mean that you won't get cut.

I was attacked by a knife-wielding thug in a parking lot and had to stay between him and my family. I was cut up some. He didn't reach my family. At the time, I was a young, active-duty combat arms soldier who regularly competed in IPSC matches.

ECS

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CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

There were a few, but not many. The closest would be the "gentlemen's" duel of the previous century. Supposedly, Turkey Creek Jack Johnson managed to show off just how useless being the faster draw was in a duel in Deadwood.

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Just the opinion of a kid

I trained with an (both parties verified) unloaded J-frame. So it wasn't a matter of someone saying "bang!" it was when the hammer struck. We didn't measure distance really, but I was within one step and a reach, which I would approximate to 5 feet. I understand, it is abit of a bold claim, and I will admit dependent on the attacker not using the "retention" position I was taught, but I don't know anyone who naturally holds a gun that way.

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Just the opinion of a kid