We all know the scene, two men facing off amano amano and the winner is the fastest one to the draw. Now, how often in real life does this happen? In almost every case I have read about the BG has their gun out first or you have several seconds of warning of a BG in your house, store, whatever. I don't ever recall a story of a person defending them themselves from a bad guy where draw speed was really a major factor in the outcome.

Now, if non-LEOs have some actual verifiable cases where draw speed was a critical part of their defense in a real BG verse GG situation I would love to read them!

Just because your opponent has his gun out first dosen't mean he wins. A rapid draw and good shot placement will win against an untrained and excited aggressor. I practice to smoothly deploy my gun, and accurately engage my targets. I hope I haven't wasted the last 40 years

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

I know alot of people that are or were fast on the draw.

Never try to draw a gun on a person that has their gun already out. They can pull a trigger faster than a person can draw. Even appearing to be drawing a gun can get you shot before you have the gun half way out of a holster.

Having been through more long term training in firearms and working the streets for 38 years, I cannot recall once where a person won the battle drawing against a person with a gun pulled on them.

I have seen perps with guns drawn shot by someone not noticed by the perp and I have seen people shot while trying to get a gun but I have yet to see someone win by pulling their own gun.

I got $50 that says I can accurately fire two rounds before someone can get their gun unholstered. Even if a person missed their target initially, the intended target will be taken by suprize just hearing the gunshot and either stumble or get distracted.

Read Bill Jordan's book, "No Second Place Winner."

Get a timer and see how long it takes to draw and accurately fire. Then time how many shots you can get off in the same amount of time. Another consideration is the holsters of today are not the fast draw type used in exhibit shooting. They are made for retention and comfort, not instant availability. Then we have the concealed guns. Clothing has to be moved to get to the gun, even a pocket holstered gun.

In my opinion, after 35 years of use and practice, the object in draw-practice is simply to develop and instinctive and smooth draw. Speed is secondary, as pointed out by oldman45. You would have to be faster than light to beat a perp who has his gun out and ready... and you cannot count on him missing you. Contrary to the gunslinger mentality, there comes a point where you must decide whether your wallet is worth the risk or whether the perp intends to pull the trigger anyway. Circumstances dictate the draw, not speed.

I have a close friend who drew against the drop a few years ago.
He was being held at gunpoint in a motel parking lot and drew his Hi-Standard .22Mag derringer and shot the robber in the torso. Robber died on the scene. Happened in Columbia, SC. (My friends partner also ran out of the motel room when he heard the shot and put two .45 rounds in the perp, but the .22Mag killed him.)
It can be done.

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John

I would vote speed a close second in priority to consistency. Don't take shortcuts to make the draw a .10 faster (like barely sweeping the concealing garment). It will get hung up on the gun eventually if you don't really throw it out of the way.

I don't think most people practice their draw in anticipation of a duel.... they do so to be able to draw their weapon as quickly and effectively as possible regardless of the situation.

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- The Federalist #46 -

Too many variables for a one size fits all answer.

Usually the one who shoots first accurately wins. Movement and cover must be considered also.

But I agree with Oldman45. I would be hard pressed to draw on a drawn gun.

This is a vastly broad subject. I don't believe one answer is entirely valid because the tactical scenario would dictate the appropriate response. If your covered by a street thug in an armed robbery, statistically, if they get what they want from you, their not interested in risking homicide conviction. Personally, I would not draw on him....until his back was turned, providing he did not discover my primary piece or back up and relieve me of them.

In cases involving emotionally disturbed people, it's a wild card. Look at the incident with the school board shooting. The perps weapon was drawn and he was firing but the school security officer dusted him anyway.

Firing from good cover is another scenario where I wouldn't hesitate to draw. As a policeman I was involved in a few running street gun fights related to drugs and a few armed robbery's. In each case the suspects were fleeing firing weapons. It took me about 1 millisecond to react and I did not hesitate to return fire.

I agree absolutely that attemting to draw when someone has you covered up close and personal, would always be a fatal mistake. The real myth of draw speed comes from the theatrical interpretations where there is a "showdown'. Which we all know to be largely dime novel nonsense.

Cheers;
Lefty

I would ask the resident historians around here just what gunslingers were killed in face to face fast draws.

There is none I know of. Most of the wild west people were shot in the back ambushed or else hit while in a prolnged gunfight where there was adequate concealment.

The days of Gunsmoke duels is something for television.

The school board shooting mentioned above is not comparing apples to apples. The deputy was concealed and had time to plan his shots. My money says he would not have considered drawing his weapon had he been across from the gunman.

This is exactly why I don't mind wearing an ankle holster 99 percent of the time.

BTW....

Mano-a-mano is a Spanish construction meaning "hand to hand". It was used originally for bullfights where two matadors alternate competing for the admiration of the audience.[1]
Current Spanish usage describes any kind of competition between two people where they both compete trying to outdo each other.
Within the Doce Pares Eskrima fighting system, it is one of the three ranges of engagement, specifically the closest one. This does not indicate solely unarmed combat.
This term has been adopted in English with similar meaning, possibly by Ernest Hemingway. The English adoption can be likened to the phrases "one on one", "head to head", or "single combat" and conveys the idea of intense competition.
It is commonly misunderstood as a cognate by English speakers who think that the term means "man to man", such as in the 2009 MTV Movie Awards, where presenters for Best Kiss, Sandra Bullock and Ryan Reynolds, referred to two gay kisses nominated as "mano a mano".

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

If you are interested in old western gunfights, try this site. It is a good read for those interested.

Old West Gunfights

The gun doesn't put itself in your hand. Regardless of how you carry you should be well practiced at accessing your weapon. There's no excuse for being slow on the draw.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

Bill Jordan's exhibition performances including drawing and firing before a spectator could clap his hands.

One of his old buddies, then Sheriff at Rock Springs, WY was put on trial for shooting a man before the man got his gun out of the holster. When the Sheriff proved he was fast enough to do it anytime, he was acquitted.

Some people are just exceptionally fast.

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Science plus Art

You can have the best holster known to man.
When it is time for it.
The best place for your gun in in your hand.

An Old Training Officer at the Detroit Police Academy, 1974

Speed kills! But, sometimes the one who dies is not the one who is fast. Early in our marriage, my wife and I lived in a high-crime area of New Orleans where I was enrolled in seminary. In the first two years, we dealt with three attempted break-in's. In each case, I got a gun and run them off. Not once was there any sort of fiddling waiting to see if any one of them was going to present a weapon. I didn't intend to give them any chances. A few years later I had to deal with a man who enter our church, which was located across the road from the parsonage. I came on him with a flashlight in one hand and a revolver in the other hand. He didn't reach for anything. I was glad. The last 24 years have been "quiet." Quiet is nice.

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<><

It's important to be able to deploy your weapon quickly and efficiently if the need should arrise, however if you think you can outdraw a gun already pointed at you with a finger already on the trigger you're either kidding yourself or you're the Waco Kid. The only times it happens is when the perp freezes and doesn't fire or his weapon fails. There's always a slight chance of that happening, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. If all he wants is your money you can replace that. If you're sure he's gonna shoot anyways either stall and distract to create opportunity or dive for cover and come out firing but don't try to win a hundred yard dash against someone who has a ninety yard head start.

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sticks-n-stones&hollowpoints

Anyone who would stand in one place and attempt to "out draw" a person who already has the drop on them, has a death wish. You would be well advised to MOVE! Deliberate, tactically sound lateral movement, combined with a smooth, fast draw and accurate fire, is going to provide you with a much better chance of surviving such a situation than simply relying on a "fast draw".

TMI.......

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Centennial Every Day

The fact you omitted is both those in the examples you mentioned carried open and practiced hours each day.

Concealed carry is vastly different. Also Bill Jordan was a great man personally and wonderful to be around but he modified his equipment to suit his needs. The avg shooter will not modify a $200 holster with an exacto knife or leave it sitting in a bucket of dishwater so it will conform to the bun better.

In my long life, I have been on the scene of many, many shootings and present at the time of a few. Only once that I can remember that a man pulled on the badguy and won.

That's what I was thinking...!

Another Bill Jordan truism, "Speed is fine, but accuracy is final"...

You left out "with the proper caliber."

Mr Jordan was not a fan of smaller calibers.

I like a Cooper-ism:

And a Haley-ism:

oldman45... they read, but they don't heed. Like you and I, it'll take a lot of experience and a lot of righteous practice. Fact is, though, some won't make it - regardless.

The trouble with "speed practice" is that often times, speed becomes the paramount goal. That's a fatal mistake.

Remember a wounded enemy requires 2 to take care of him. A dead one takes none.

One ~very~ important variable is moving. Your probability of being hit goes way down if you move and draw. Gabe Suarez has done much research on this. Very interesting. If the "good guy" stands and delivers, so to speak, he has a very high chance of getting hit. If (explosively) moves while drawing and returning fire, he has a very high chance of ~not~ being hit.

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Centennial Every Day

Interesting. Most of those that suffer from "caliber envy" would consider the .357 a small caliber.

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Centennial Every Day

I guess Davis/David Tutt qualified as a gambler, not a gunfighter, but his fatal encounter with J.B. Hickhock was at least close to a fast draw and certainly provided the model for the future novelists.

The situation that you find yourself in at "that moment" will dictate what you do or don't do, try or don't try so that you survive. If it comes down to it, and I think I'm fixing to catch a pill, you better believe I'm going to try to outdraw a drawn gun. You can bet I won't be static when I do it.

There are some common sense facts involved that have not been mentioned yet.

1. Not every time a gun is pulled on someone, be it in anger, robbery or whatever will end in someone being shot. If it did, we would have hundreds of thousands of shootings each year.

2. The majority of time, the tone of those invovled will dictate if a shot will be fired. That is why those being robbed is advised to be polite and give the robber the items asked for.

3. Pulling a defensive weapon will almost assure someone, good guy or bad guy, will be shot.

4. Depending on where this takes place can factor in if the good guy, assuming he lives through it, is charged with shooting the bad guy or possibly endangerment.

5. Because a good guy has a gun does not mean he has to use it. This was a lesson I learned in 1981 that almost ended very ugly and I would have gone to jail despite a half dozen witnesses to a crime in progress.

In Iai, the Japanese art of drawing the sword, the goal is to get so good at drawing the sword that the enemy immediately capitulates. But the favorite story is about a true master involved a boat ride where a blowhard recognized a master and called him out, despite repeated refusals the blowhard pressed the master into a dual. The Master said "Ok, but let us do it on that island there so we do not endanger innocent people on the boat." The boatman put in to the island, the blowhard leaped off first and the Master then pushed the boat off from shore and waved goodbye to the blow hard.

Being able to use your weapon is only one half of what you need to know, knowing when to use it is the other half.

I think you are getting your facts vs. rumors information confused here. There were numerous people killed in fact to face shootings that were not backshootings or prolonged gunfights. And even if not all of them were "man on man" the math works out the same.

When you hear people, either informed or not, say the "Gunsmoke duels" didn't happen, they aren't referencing the face to face gunfight. It is the "duel" part they are talking about where the two gentlemen agree to meet on the street at noon and wait for the bad guy to shoot first. Which, there was supposed to have actually been one instance where it did happen somewhat like that, if I recall correctly.

Unfortunately most of these men didn't write books, unlike the plethora of experts that were never in a gunfight in their lives like we have now. And when they did, it usually wasn't about gunfighting, such as John Wesley Hardins autobiography or Wyatt Earps somewhat questionable biography written by Stuart Lake. But they both did happen to give some insight to the subject at hand. But what did they know?

We are not talking about duels. We are talking about people with guns drawn and someone else going for a gun. Few gunslingers were fast enough. Duels were among gentlemen. The person out to rob you will not be a gentleman and will pull a trigger before you can get to your gun.

The ability to draw quickly and to shoot accurately is a useful skill, if we look at P.4 on the Belly Gun Thread that was started today there is a newspaper article on a succesful use of a fast draw.
Drawing against a gun that is already pointing at you is not a desireable thing, however, if the belief is that the person is going to shoot then it is better than just standing there.
Jelly Bryce drew successfully against a man who was pointing a gun at him. Bill Jordan demonstrated that it could be done successfully, Mr Ayoob tells a good story about such a demonstration. Other people of ability have done it.

We are not talking of recklessness but once the decision has been made the ability to get the gun into action quickly is a necessary skill.

The Tutt Hickock fight is a classic ,if long distance , version of the face off type of gunfight but didn't Luke Short and Jim Courtright also fight a face to face gunfight on the streets of Fort Worth.
NB

Assuming that the bad guy doesn't have the same gun skills as you will likely prove fatal. Picture yourself having a gun drawn on someone, already aimed at a kill zone. If he starts pulling his weapon are you gonna miss?

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sticks-n-stones&hollowpoints

I wasn't talking about duels either, duels were very rare on the western frontier. The gunslinger info you requested had nothing to do with being "robbed", it was serious business. Many of the conflicts that happened in the old west that are now famous, or should be, were of a personal nature and it was usually understood that when the two individuals or factions met there was going to be a gunfight. You seem to think that the old west gunfights and modern robberies are two completely different affairs. Well, you are right, but there is a lot to be learned from history.

Having a person reach for a gun while the other guy had him covered did happen in the old west, it was either that or die without a chance. There were also many gunfights were both participants went for their guns at about the same time, but the first to fire didn't always win like they do on TV. And there were times when the gunfight was half over before the second shooter even drew his weapon, there again he wasn't always the loser.

And if he decides to shoot you anyway, for whatever reason, your advice is to stand there and take it like a man? There's a very good chance he'll miss, but for how long will depend on him. Wether or not you even get a chance to win depends on you.

Here are a couple other incidents that are not old west lore. My memory is fading fast but these can be researched, just like many of the western gunfights.

There was an incident as I recall where Delf Bryce entered a hotel room to arrest a suspect. The suspect was pointing two 1911s at the doorway but when Mr. Bryce entered and saw him, he pulled his revolver from under his coat and shot him five times in the head before the suspect could fire once.

I remember watching a training film, based on a real incident, of a US Marshall I believe, that was escorting a suspect along with a female agent. The suspect had a female friend/wife/etc. covertly get the drop on the two Marshalls in a well planned scheme to set him free. The bad guy got a gun, either from the lady friend or from the lady agent, I don't recall which, but had it pointed at the male agent. At the same time the bad girl was trying to find his weapon under his coat, but she was looking on the right side not realizing he was wearing it on the left side. ( It was either in a shoulder rig or crossdraw holster, not sure which.) He had his eyes welded on the bad guys eyes and when he noticed the bad guy glance away to look at the other Marshall, he pushed the bad girl away, drew his weapon and killed the bad guy before he could get a shot off. The Marshall said he had learned this from Masaad Ayoobs writings and had practiced it on a regular basis.

They certainly did. There was some bad blood between them and people felt it was going to end in gunplay, which meant the death of Luke Short since he wasn't a gunfighter and "Longhaired Jim" Courtright was a good one. Unfortunately stories vary as to exactly what happened, as is usual with these old tales, but two versions I've heard are: 1) They drew about the same time with Short getting the first shot off, which went wild, but it managed to hit Courtrights right thumb removing it from his hand. Courtright tried the border shift technique to shift hands so he could cock his single action revolver to shoot Short, but Short had time to make sure his second shot hit Courtright with a fatal wound. 2) They were standing very close together when Courtright pulled a gun and tried to shoot Short, but the hammer got caught up in Shorts watch chain. Short then drew his own revolver and fired a shot which hit the cylinder in Courtrights revolver making it unusable. Short then emptied his revolver hitting Courtright several times, one of which was in his heart.

If someone points a gun at me I will draw and fight. I can reasonably assume the other guy means to do me harm. I have been around long enough to know that I should not to rely on the mercy of others. No one on this forum can predict how it will turn out. One thing is certain, if you don't draw the fight will be very one sided.

There are hundreds of thousands of armed robberies each year but the clerks are not killed.

I believe the majority of the homicides will be between known accquanitances.

As to history, people need to read the link I posted above. History has a way of making people heroes and that includes LEO shootouts. I have been on the scene of shootings and know that they did not happen as the media or community publically stated. There are stories told about some recent exhibition shooters that said they could toss a quarter in the air and shoot it twice before it hit the ground. That is not possible. Once the quarter is hit, it is gone very fast in another direction. The hype is just to glorify the shooter. I had a friend (LEO) that was fatally shot. It was stated that after being hit, he still returned fire. If he did, he had a gun nobody could find because his sidearm was never fired. Yes, people can get lucky and some even are trained to look for opportunities but not all are trained to be hostage negotiator or remain calm under duress. I have seen veteran officers have bowel problems after a stressful confrontation.

I will not try to outdraw a person pointing a gun at me. It becomes time for soft spoken talk. The odds are against me if I go for a gun. The odds say the armed person will not shoot me if I do not anger him. Believe it or not, the criminal fully understands he will face either the death penalty or life in prison for killing someone during the commission of a crime. That stops many from shooting and those I interviewed invovled in armed robberies have told me they did not kill witnesses unless they had to do so because they did not want to spend life in jail or be executed.


Now if you are worried about a jealous husband or a scorned wife, then all bets are off and you best try to get your gun.

I can't remember who said it but the saying was..."Speed is good but accuracy is final."

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Dyin ain't much of a livin

You wanna see fast, get on the internet and watch Bob Munden do fast draw and shoot. He fires two shots so fast it appears as one

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Dyin ain't much of a livin

I went back and read some of the stories listed in your link. They have been edited and butchered from whatever source they copied them from to the point they aren't worth reading, at least not if you want to know what really might have happened. This is a problem with the internet, people read things that have been hacked from some other source and never really know the whole story.

As for the rest of your opinions, they say a lot about your qualifications for forming them. It's your soapbox, say whatever you want, but I'm not listening anymore.

[QUOTE=oldman45; thousands of armed robberies each year but the clerks are not killed......I will not try to outdraw a person pointing a gun at me. It becomes time for soft spoken talk. The odds are against me if I go for a gun. The odds say the armed person will not shoot me if I do not anger him.
QUOTE]

The above points are valid but what if the odds are not with you ?

What if you have to do something ? What if fast positive action is required ? Do you have the ability to take that action.

John Farnams DTI Quips have the story of the Gurkha on the train that was robbed - too long to repeat but worth a read - he did nothing until action was forced on him, then he reacted with speed and skill to a very positive conclusion.

No it is not your first choice of action but it might be the only choice you are left with.

This is a Leo example of speed. In 1978 I drove up on a vehicle whose driver had just robbed, kidnapped and sexually assaulted a convienience store clerk. He did all this on impulse and then realized that because he was a frequent customer, she would be able to identify him. He stated in his confession that he was about to shoot her in the head when he saw my headlights coming down the road. He made her get into his car and then took off. I began pursuing. When he realized he could not outrun me, he slammed on the brakes, jumped out of his door with his revolver already cocked with the intention of killing me and taking my car. I had to jam on the brakes to keep from hitting his vehicle. The next thing I know is that he is standin in front of my vehicle holding a revolver in an isocelese stance pointing it right at me. He said my bright lights kind of made him hesitate for a second cause it was hard to see me. His plan was to shoot me as I exited my vehicle. I had reached down to turn the siren off and when I looked up, there he was. Years of practice and trainging kicked in and without really thinking about it, my 44 boomed through my windshield and the bad guy dropped like he was poleaxed. He had fainted. The only thing that touched him was the glass out of the windshield.

He survived and went to prison. I was named Deputy of the year. I was carrying a Smith 29 in a Jordan Border Patrol holster worn the way Bill Jordan intended with the safety strap snapped out of the way. A leathersmith had helped me put a tension screw between the barrel and the welt of the hoster so tightening or loosening a Chicago Screw would adjust the tension on the revolver making it tight enough to stay in the holster but available for instant draw. The holster had quite a bit of forward rake. With it form fitted to the revolver and the correct amount of tention, it was almost impossible to snatch from behind. Snatching it from the front wasn't going to work cause you would get 5 rounds of 44 Special from the Bulldog I carried in my off hand pants pocket.

If a guy has the drop on you, you better be able to draw and fire faster than he can react and pull the trigger. Not impossible since most peoples reaction time is 3/4 second or longer. As far as off duty or concealed carry, if you look up and see some demented sociopath coming toward you with a knife or a club, you'd better be able to bring your sidearm into action before he reaches you. Otherwise the anti-gunners will be saying how you should not have been carrying a gun after he knocks you unconscious and then kills you with your own weapon. Remember Jeff Cooper. Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas means Accuracy, Power, and SPEED.

During this colder weather, I can carry a revolver in my hand in my jacket pocket and no one will be able to tell. Already having the gun in my hand and just firing through the jacket pocket is extremely fast and you have made no movement to telegraph your intentions to your opponent. If you were walking to your car in a parking lot at night and an armed carjacker approached, the first hint that you were not going to submit would be the boom of a 357 or 38 and the funny feeling he'd get when a 125 grain slug enters his solar plexus and exits his spine.

Gabe Suarez and his training philosophy are controversial in many quarters, but it's worth pointing out that in some of his courses this scenario -- reacting to a drawn and pointed weapon by moving off the "X", while drawing and firing one's own weapon at the threat -- shows surprising success. This is done with paintball and simunitions guns, of course.

One should not discount being able to react successfully given any opportunity to do so.

Well Boys,
Right there ya go...



*As a side note to all this here sheep dip,
I had a meth tweaker throw down on me in a short hallway once...
Well, let's jest say he quit the tweakin' business.

No, I ain't fast...Just willin'

Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Well... An interesting discussion and it does remind one of all the assumptions of gunfighting. We all have to study the subject and come to our own conclusions... and live or die by them.

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Centennial Every Day

Having seen quite a few inner-city shootings over the years, it has become clear to me that most assailants can't shoot worth a damn, even at close range. Moreover, they don't read Ayoob and they don't know or care who he is. Many of the assailants (and victims) I have encountered can be characterized as "uncivilized" and they give animals a bad name. Many of these shootings are so bizarre that if you heard them you'd think they must be fiction. Of course many of these "victims" are in fact the moral equivalent of their assailants. In light of this, I have seen incidents where victims have disarmed their assailants and shot them (or shot at them) with their own guns. I believe that this type of activity happens more often than we are lead to believe. The moral of the story is that savage, mind numbing violence really can be a good and effective response to a lethal threat, even when things are looking very bad. As nice, law-abiding human beings, we have been conditioned to use less than ideal force and it is often to our own detriment. Of course there are obvious dangers in attempting to out-draw somebody who had a gun pointed at you, but in this situation ANY action you take can still result in your getting shot. We all possess different degrees of gun handling skill and humanity and compassion, so what might for one clearly will not work for all.

Dave Sinko

IIRC this robber got the drop on seven men and made them lie down as he took their valuables. One of the seven men had a concealed weapon which he was able to draw. When the robber saw the holster the shooting started. Don't recall who fired first, think it was the robber. I think I read the good guy thought the robber was going to shoot them all. Both survived hits that were serious but not life threatening. Close range shooting.

Early report (scroll down): Man arrested in Jefferson City shooting : News : ConnectMidMissouri.com .

Convicted.
http://www.colecopa.com/news/110111%20release.pdf

Man convicted in 2009 downtown robbery-shooting | News Tribune

Just an interesting scenario, robber had the drop on the victims, but there was so much going on the good guy had a moment to get his weapon out and ready.

I'm frequently the range officer at the club where I shoot. Several times, men and women with little or no experience have come out (usually with a gun-owning friend or relative) to try pistol shooting. If there's not much going on, I take this as an opportunity to try an experiment.

I set up an IPDA target at about 5 yards and have the new shooter start from low ready and fire when they hear the timer, trying to hit the chest area. The only practice is allowing the shooter to raise and dry-firing a couple of times. Almost every time, the shooter is able to get an acceptable hit within one (1) second of the buzzer.

It's hard for most to draw from normal concealment and fire in under 2 seconds. If .5 of that is reaction to the buzzer, you're going to be shooting a half second after the opponent has fired, all things being equal.

This is a simple demonstration. It leaves out many of the factors involved in a self-defense shooting, like mind-set, focus, distractions, type of gear involved, etc. For example, someone using a vest for concealment and an open top holster, may be able to draw and fire in well under 1.5 seconds. Change the outfit to what a many wear and draw time will double or triple.

Good info, that is why I always practice with what I wear.