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  #51  
Old 03-31-2011, 05:12 PM
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This guy thinks 9mm IS big enough for self defense! This guy thinks 9mm IS big enough for self defense! This guy thinks 9mm IS big enough for self defense! This guy thinks 9mm IS big enough for self defense! This guy thinks 9mm IS big enough for self defense!  
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Originally Posted by Lost Lake View Post
Can you clarify your position? The video shows a guy that can hit what he aims at, and can deliver an amazing amount of firepower accurately. You seem unimpressed, yet you say you carry a .38 and can hit what you aim at.

I'm not trying to insult you or belittle you in any way. I'd like to know what your thoughts are. Is he an idiot showing his skills with a 9mm but you carrying a .38 that you can hit a target with is better? I don't understand.

Now I'll carry a .380 (if it ever gets here ) and I believe shot placement is king. I believe more shots are good (big mags) and if those shots are on target I believe you demonstrate the ability to align the sights and control the weapon. I believe someone that can do this quickly and accurately has an advantage over someone that can only hit a target after 5 seconds of grip adjustment and breathing exercises. I believe if this guy had to duck and run, then jump up and take a couple quick shots he is demonstrating that he can acquire a target quickly and follow up with multiple shots.

I do not understand anyone bashing what I think is a fine display of accuracy and control. I cannot shoot any of my large caliber pistols like this yet, but I'll work on it.

Our local instructor say there are three key factors to defense with a handgun.
1. bullet placement
2. bullet placement
3. bullet placement

Remember 9 mm was enough to take out Tupac and Biggie.
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  #52  
Old 03-31-2011, 10:47 PM
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Not sure why everyone is looking so hard to criticize this kid for everthing under the sun. This kid has a talent and skill he has refined through practice. A lot of people on this forum are reading waaaaayyyyyy too much into this, the whole video was suppose to be sarcastic and to show what a 9mm gun and a proficient shooter can do.....he was not trying to demonstrate tactics or start a debate on legal issues of deadly force. By him dumping a mag into a steel plate is not the same as him saying "if I ever have to use this gun to save my life I am going to keep shooting the person untill my mag runs out". I don't see anyone on here ever busting Jerry Miculik's chops when he does speed demonstrations.....or question his tactics. It is dissapointing to me to see so many people so eager to jump all over someone and offer non constructive criticism. This is the first time I have ever visited this particular forum and if this is the kind of silly things people sit around and argue about then I'll probably make a point to avoid this one.

too those of you who were decent enough to give the man his due, this post wasn't aimed at you.
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  #53  
Old 04-01-2011, 04:13 PM
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Not sure why everyone is looking so hard to criticize this kid for everthing under the sun. This kid has a talent and skill he has refined through practice. A lot of people on this forum are reading waaaaayyyyyy too much into this, the whole video was suppose to be sarcastic and to show what a 9mm gun and a proficient shooter can do.....he was not trying to demonstrate tactics or start a debate on legal issues of deadly force. By him dumping a mag into a steel plate is not the same as him saying "if I ever have to use this gun to save my life I am going to keep shooting the person untill my mag runs out". I don't see anyone on here ever busting Jerry Miculik's chops when he does speed demonstrations.....or question his tactics. It is dissapointing to me to see so many people so eager to jump all over someone and offer non constructive criticism. This is the first time I have ever visited this particular forum and if this is the kind of silly things people sit around and argue about then I'll probably make a point to avoid this one.

too those of you who were decent enough to give the man his due, this post wasn't aimed at you.
Excellent post, said much more eloquently than I could say it. Admire the skill the man shows and leave it at that.
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  #54  
Old 04-05-2011, 01:53 PM
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With modern ammo, a 9mm may be a viable self defense caliber. I still prefer something that begins with a "4."
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  #55  
Old 04-07-2011, 02:22 PM
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Excellent point though I think a lot of people are too philosophical and judgemental to enjoy any display for what it is. Also I'd just like to add IMO in any defense situation reguardless of legalities the first objective is stopping the threat. No matter how many hits a perp has taken if he is armed and has movement he still poses a major threat. I'd much rather have to explain why my actions were neccessary to preserve my life than to have someone deliver my ulogy.
Very well said.
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  #56  
Old 04-18-2011, 09:48 PM
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I love the 45 for stopping power but with proper load selection and lot's of practice a 9mm is more than adequate for self defense, it's the people who can't put the first round on target that think it isn't. Although with that being said my MP days training with the CT state police really instilled the modicum that more kinetic energy is better at stopping bad guys faster. I think the 9mm got a bad rep due to fmj's used as a self defense load.
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  #57  
Old 04-18-2011, 11:58 PM
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Although some have illuded to it, there hasn't been a whole lot about being shot at, while addressing a threat. And the idea posed that enough training will dictate your reaction in a deadly force situation is Dumbo's Feather, as far as My experience goes. Training and practice is great, but when that big shot of juice hits your central nervous system, no one can guarentee much of anything, and that truth should be an element in any good traing program, in my view. Mental preparedness is at least as important as the mechanics of gun handling in my view, and it should be practiced together to be the most effective that it can. A very simple example of this is the much talked about pop up targets that showed up on military gun ranges durring the Viet Nam War. It seems that when green rifle companys in WWII first came under fire, only apx 10% of the troups reportedly, initially, returned fire. Studies done in actual combat by people who specialize in human behavior resulted in, ammong many other things, the pop up target, and the three critical human responses that it illicits: Stimulous, Response, and Reinforcement. The target pops up= stimulous, the soldier shoots at the target= response, the target falls=reinforcement. This all happens with targets that look generally like human beings, and after being instilled with some "talk" by trained instructors, where the rules of the "game" are instilled in the "players". This is combined with sessions, usually after exhausting excersise of somne kind (they got lots) where, before being dismissed to colapse somewhere, the troups are made to stand at attention and scream "when fired upon, return fire-gain fire superiority, and maintain fire superiority" for an extended period of time, preferably in a down poor, or blazing heat. Once a human being is "indoctrinated" with Stimulous-Response, and Reinforcement, it stays with them. So, as a result, the findings in Viet Nam were reversed from those typical of WWII. When a green infantry company was first fired upon, 90% returned fire, initially. Unfortunately, those in Viet Nam had to use the "M-16" as redesigned by a former Ford Motor Company bean counter. If that was the only weapon I had access to when I was initially fired upon, I would use it to try to reach my Model 629 no dash 8 3/8's. Flapjack
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  #58  
Old 04-19-2011, 12:38 AM
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.45 ACP.....


.....because shooting twice is just silly!






Needed to throw a little more gas on this fire!




As for the young guys talent, he did draw cleanly and get the first shot on target. The mag change was done in a fairly smooth manner. Dump targets can be fun. That's about all I will say about the video.


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  #59  
Old 04-26-2011, 09:58 PM
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I'm gonna tell the DA that when I discovered the BG coming at me I was so scared that I emptied my gun at (notice- at) him.

If there three of them I pray I'll have enough to around.

9mm comes with big magazines.
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  #60  
Old 04-27-2011, 01:11 PM
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Talking 9mm huh

I once killed a man with a shoe-Steel toe of course. They are always loaded
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  #61  
Old 04-28-2011, 12:32 AM
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If the military is getting pretty good results with 62 grain bullets, why can't a 115 or 124 grain bullet give good results if driven fast enough. Most folks who tout the .38 Special wouldn't carry a load less than +P, and I wouldn't carry one less than +P in 9mm either. It's the cheapest center fire pistol cartridge to train with, and the most common among armed services around the world. Do you remember how hard it was to find .380 last year? That will never happen with 9mm.
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  #62  
Old 04-29-2011, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by OKFC05 View Post

Beginners discuss the perfect calliber

Amateurs discuss the perfect gun

Pros discuss tactics and awareness

Well said!!!!
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  #63  
Old 04-29-2011, 11:24 AM
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also, the talk about fighting 5 dudes by yourself is pretty ridiculous anyway. Im sure somebody out there can do it but must of us, if faced with this situation, should consider running our asses off, hopefully getting some standoff behind some sort of hard cover, shot a few rounds and then run our asses off again.

I've fought "5 dudes" before. They had AK47s and I had about 15 of my closest friends with me it still takes some maneuvering to win that fight.
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  #64  
Old 04-29-2011, 12:42 PM
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Hey, a .22 is a fine self defense round, as long as you aim between the eyes...



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  #65  
Old 05-05-2011, 07:39 PM
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You are all right! Carry what makes YOU comfortable... practice a lot....pray the BG misses with his first shot (none of us shoot first...right?) The rest doesn't matter... I don't want the guy in the video next to me shooting what I think he should have.. I want him shooting THAT gun.
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Old 05-05-2011, 11:34 PM
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also, the talk about fighting 5 dudes by yourself is pretty ridiculous anyway.
It's not that ridiculous if you end up on the wrong side of town

1 Killed, 1 Hurt In Detroit Carjacking - Local News - Detroit, MI - msnbc.com
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Old 05-05-2011, 11:42 PM
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It's not that ridiculous if you end up on the wrong side of town
That's easy, stay away from the wrong side of town.
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  #68  
Old 05-06-2011, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKFC05 View Post
Beginners discuss the perfect calliber

Amateurs discuss the perfect gun

Pros discuss tactics and awareness

I watched a USPSA Grand Master draw and engage 5 targets in under 4 seconds, which is a great shooting demonstration. But he is also a working LE, and he'll be the first to tell you it is impossible to identify and verify real people that quickly without great risk of shooting the wrong person. And he won't stand flatfooted in the open and draw against five men.

Words to live by, hope you don't mind if I add it to my book of quote's.
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  #69  
Old 05-06-2011, 06:35 PM
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i carry 9mm daily, its a real hot , fast round, and in HPJ it expands to the size of a .45 ball.......i think .45 ball is good enough for self defense therefore , 9mm is too.....i can hit a quarter at 10 yards. most self defense scenarios happen 5-8 feet lol........yep 9mm to the head, throat or center mass will do her just fine :-D
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Old 05-08-2011, 08:47 PM
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Gentleman, if you do your part the 9M/M will do its' job.
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Old 05-08-2011, 10:01 PM
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Here's a twist guys. Our local SWAT teams swear by the .357 Sig. Depending on where I am, and when, determines what I carry. Compact 9 (Spear Gold Dots)=Town Night Out Against Crime, there's alot of LEO's in attendance. Homie ville, 16+1 .40
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Old 05-08-2011, 10:10 PM
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YouTube - Jug Test - Fiocchi 92 Gr. Expansion Mono-Block 9mm Luger
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  #73  
Old 05-11-2011, 10:43 PM
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great shooting... I feel good with 380 upto a 45.
1. shot placement (center mass, T zone)
2. speed (slow is smooth, smooth is fast)
3. then, and only then, do we talk about caliber.
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Old 12-30-2015, 10:58 AM
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Of great concern to me of late has been the introduction of FA weapons and body armor to the fight by terrorist types. I find myself practicing more head shots than I used to and arthritis is forcing me to the 9 rather than my beloved 45. For the young man in video; good for you. You have great skills and will fair better than the average citizen. My guess is anyone who has developed that competence has pretty good tactical skills as well; just showing off a little for the camera.
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Old 12-30-2015, 01:14 PM
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Gentlemen, I have read through this thread and found it quite informative and entertaining, and thought provoking.

What is disturbing me, is the premise that while we all carry for self defense, many of the respondents are advocating multiple hits and head shots. Only the respondent immediately before me made a case for head shots, due to the rise of terrorists with full auto and body armor.

Yes, shot placement is critical in stopping an armed threat. But (hopefully) we all acknowledge the likelihood that we face the prospect of prosecution for exercising our right to self defense where we must justify our use of lethal force. Would not a high round count weaken a contention of self defense! I would think that a (grand) jury could accept a few well placed rounds as self defense, and an excessive number of rounds eroding the plea of self defense and pushing the envelope towards murder.

I also understand the logic behind firing until the threat is neutralized. I would also believe that if an assailant "absorbed" 2-3 well placed center of mass shots that a head shot would be justified on the presumption that the assailant is wearing body armor. Is there not a concern amongst the forum members that emptying a high capacity magazine in order to stop AN assailant would weaken any contention of self defense?

I acknowledge that those of us that carry, carry what we are most comfortable with and the most proficient with. While one particular round and arm may possess the best threat neutralizing characteristics, that is not necessarily the best self defense choice for many of us. Sadly, I think that with the climate change, that we have to anticipate a higher degree of accountability when we fire defensively, and we need to anticipate an increase in the number of assailants that we may be engaging in an ever changing self defense scenario!
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Old 12-30-2015, 01:17 PM
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I don't view the issue as, 'is the 9mm enough?' because the truth is; of course it's enough. History proves it's enough.

However, the 9mm is considered to be the minimum caliber for self-defense. The question for me isn't, is the 9mm enough, it's rather, am I comfortable carrying the minimum? For me it's no, I would prefer to have .357sig if I'm going to be shooting a 9mm sized slug, or .45acp, or 10mm.

Now, if anyone disagrees and wants to carry 9mm; I'm completely OK with that; I like the good guys and girls carrying and I'm thankful to live in a place where we have so many choices!

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Old 12-30-2015, 01:25 PM
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I've watched this kids YouTube channel quite a bit (cute little girlfriend too). He shoots a lot and is good with about anything he picks up. He's no Jerry Miculek but he can handle himself.
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Old 12-30-2015, 01:27 PM
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Funny that this video would prompt such a discussion. I suspect he just made the Youtube video for the heck of it and the view counter. Odd that he does not capitalize on the real reason people tune into his channel...


Kirsti = 100K plus views versus just him. Hey, at least it is a video of them shooting the Shield.
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Old 12-30-2015, 01:41 PM
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I'm gonna run out an get me one of those 9mm too!


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Old 12-30-2015, 01:48 PM
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I think the question is being asked wrong .. its not whether the 9mm is a big enough round for self defense but rather am I carrying the right 9mm round for my weapon to stop the threat !!
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Old 12-30-2015, 02:07 PM
hangnoose hangnoose is offline
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This guy thinks 9mm IS big enough for self defense! This guy thinks 9mm IS big enough for self defense! This guy thinks 9mm IS big enough for self defense! This guy thinks 9mm IS big enough for self defense! This guy thinks 9mm IS big enough for self defense!  
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Default 9MM?

The caliber is plenty. The real question, is the person using it?
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Old 12-30-2015, 02:10 PM
dwever dwever is offline
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This guy thinks 9mm IS big enough for self defense! This guy thinks 9mm IS big enough for self defense! This guy thinks 9mm IS big enough for self defense!  
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Going back to my days with the Florida ANG after the active AF, I have loved the .45 particularly on a 1911 platform. Thing is, since ca. 2007, there is no longer any appreciable difference between the stopping power of a .45 and 9mm with certain 9mm loads such as Federal HST, - but I continue to enjoy the .45 chest beating and the cute posts about why would you shoot somebody twice when one .45 will do.

Anyway, an FBI comparison is below - the full study has been duplicated, is very revealing, and readily available on line. And, there are numerous articles in the LEO publications about the migration back to 9mm among LE agencies.

To digress to platforms for a second, I stopped carrying the 1911 in 2014 as even with a a Wilson Combat .45 CQB Elite and WC 9mm X-Tac, they would eventually but not often malfunction, and WC would blame inconsistencies with the factory ammo or lack of lube, and make statements about the tight tolerances it takes to produce a weapon that shoots 1" groups at 25 yards. So I went back to a 627 carry (or 586+ IWB) with about the same capacity as a 1911. My introduction to Glocks occurred years ago via the agency I serve, and while ugly and soul-less, I was shocked these sub $500 weapons were more reliable than my high-maiteneance $3,000 WC 1911's. An inconvenient truth you can't post on a 1911 forum or they freak out. Looking forward to an S&W PC 929 for carry that looks maybe like a 2.625" barreled 627 UDR (top of 3rd picture). Peace
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  #83  
Old 12-30-2015, 02:15 PM
05CarbonDRZ 05CarbonDRZ is offline
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Those where bunny fart reloads.
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  #84  
Old 12-30-2015, 02:24 PM
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If I was a BG and watched a gang member riddled like that and see the shooter add a new clip.....................

I think I would be headed out of Dodge City...........

but then there are those that we also say to them.................

"Here's your sign".
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Old 12-30-2015, 02:54 PM
dwever dwever is offline
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Quote:
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If I was a BG and watched a gang member riddled like that and see the shooter add a new clip.....................
.
There were no 'clips' in that video.
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:01 PM
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwever View Post
Anyway, an FBI comparison is below - the full study has been duplicated, is very revealing, and readily available on line.
I look at that chart and wonder if the test was rigged. They have the .357sig at over 1000fps slower than its standard loading. The .357sig is supposed to load a 125gr HP at 1450fps, not that anemic 1319fps. I can't find any loading from any of the 'police' ammos with that low of a velocity

Both the .40 and .45 velocities are approximately in line with LE and self-defense loadings.

Something is amiss in that chart; either the data is very old or they selected rounds to ensure its outcome.
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:39 PM
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Wow, this is an old post of mine.... I can't believe how many guns I've bought since then! ��

I've been carrying a Shield or a 3913 pretty regularly. Sometimes a 642 in the summer. I don't feel underpowered but I haven't been in a gunfight either!

Lately I've been seeing groups of attackers jumping people. Like the 'knockout game'. I'm afraid I may be facing three or four thugs. And yeah, one shot may scare them all off, but on the other hand 3 shots may just wound one guy and the rest want to pounce.

I'm thinking of carrying a spare mag.
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Old 12-31-2015, 07:56 PM
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So what makes y'all think the 45 is so great?
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Old 01-02-2016, 04:30 PM
Shorty 45 MK2 Shorty 45 MK2 is offline
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I see your video and raise you one.
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Old 01-02-2016, 05:20 PM
V0OBWxZS16 V0OBWxZS16 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
I look at that chart and wonder if the test was rigged. They have the .357sig at over 1000fps slower than its standard loading. The .357sig is supposed to load a 125gr HP at 1450fps, not that anemic 1319fps. I can't find any loading from any of the 'police' ammos with that low of a velocity

Both the .40 and .45 velocities are approximately in line with LE and self-defense loadings.

Something is amiss in that chart; either the data is very old or they selected rounds to ensure its outcome.
Speer Gold Dots and Winchester Ranger .357 Sig are rated at 1350 fps by their manufacturers. Hornady's are rated at ~1225 fps.

It's not like adding 100 fps is going to make a dramatic improvement.
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Old 01-02-2016, 05:26 PM
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Someone posted this chart in another forum.

9mm loses energy pretty fast. Makes me feel better about my .357sig.

This guy thinks 9mm IS big enough for self defense!-357sig-data-jpg
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  #93  
Old 01-03-2016, 01:59 PM
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Old 01-03-2016, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
I look at that chart and wonder if the test was rigged. They have the .357sig at over 1000fps slower than its standard loading. The .357sig is supposed to load a 125gr HP at 1450fps, not that anemic 1319fps. I can't find any loading from any of the 'police' ammos with that low of a velocity

Both the .40 and .45 velocities are approximately in line with LE and self-defense loadings.

Something is amiss in that chart; either the data is very old or they selected rounds to ensure its outcome.
357 Sig Hornady Critical Duty 135gr. FlexLock HP Ammo ..
Muzzle Energy 450
Muzzle Velocity 1225
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Old 01-03-2016, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
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357 Sig Hornady Critical Duty 135gr. FlexLock HP Ammo ..
Muzzle Energy 450
Muzzle Velocity 1225
450? I won't be buying that ammo!

I have several boxes of Sig's V-crown 125gr at 1356fps for 511 ft/pounds at the muzzle.

Right now I'm loaded with Georgia Arms 125gr at 1400fps.
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Old 01-04-2016, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
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LOL!!!

But remember when the zombies attack, or if you are faced with maybe three BG's coming at you, multiple shots may be required


That just means that you have four rounds left for your next gunfight...
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Old 01-04-2016, 08:54 PM
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Use what you are capable of shoot well even a 22 Mag on a soft target is better then a large bullet passing by it. Don
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Old 01-07-2016, 11:02 PM
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Fantastic topic! Wonder why this subject has not been posted before?
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