This is a tongue in cheek video, but take a look and if you are someone who doesn't think 9mm is a good self defense cartridge, perhaps this video of what a little training can do may change your mind.....


YouTube - WILL A 9MM REALLY PROTECT YOU??

Accurate and fast. Pretty good combination in any caliber!

Out
West

The 9MM 115 gr. JHP launched at 1300 fps has proven to do a very credible job of stopping BGs. If any of us could put that many rounds into the perp that quickly I think he'd develope a terminal case of ventilation!

Alas, yes... we have become a society of shooters which measures success in the number of bullets we can place into a bad guy - rather than emphasizing the ease of ending it all with an accurate shot from the neanderthal .45acp. Guns sell, today, based upon magazine capacity and the number of contraptions one can hang off it.

Thank you, but, I am old; carried a Commander for +35 years; and have to pee a lot. My intent is to simply kill the bad guy with shot one or a double tap... and then go pee. I have no time for gunfights or go-zillion round magazines.

This is not to say 9mm won't get the job done, as it seems to be working quite well in every city neighborhood and all over the world. Gang bangers and drug runners love it just as much as LEO's and others.

LOL!!!

But remember when the zombies attack, or if you are faced with maybe three BG's coming at you, multiple shots may be required.

This guy I don't think will have a problem taking on multiple BG's. He even swapped in a new mag just to show he is ready for the next 17 shots....

Actually gang bangers like the "forty"

That is some fine shooting.

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Don't look, reload and shoot!

Too many flaws there in my opinion.

He best not be standing there in the open focused on one target. Bad guys have friends too.

He is shooting at a target that is not shooting back or having posed any threat that would bring the stress level up.

While proficient with the 9mm, he also trades a lot of accuracy for capacity. Anyone can make rapid shots when relaxed and practiced with the gun being used.

The popularity of the 9mm was due to capacity. One round of a 12 ga shotgun with 00 Buck will do the same thing more effectively.

If he could afford a .45 and got that proficient, then he would not have to shoot that many times to neutralize his target. Should he have cut loose on a person firing that many shots, he would be in jail facing charges. A person does what they train for. Him emptying the mag would not sit well with a District Attorney. I had a case in 1971 where a young lady was being abused and she shot her husband three times. The first two was justified but the DA and the Judge felt the third was overkill since there was no longer a threat. She got five years in a ladies prison.

Beginners discuss the perfect calliber

Amateurs discuss the perfect gun

Pros discuss tactics and awareness

I watched a USPSA Grand Master draw and engage 5 targets in under 4 seconds, which is a great shooting demonstration. But he is also a working LE, and he'll be the first to tell you it is impossible to identify and verify real people that quickly without great risk of shooting the wrong person. And he won't stand flatfooted in the open and draw against five men.

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Science plus Art

It's pah'nounced Fo-Tay, Homes.

Actually, did those look like light load roll your owns?

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Is it safe?

I'm not going to bother commenting on the inaccurate statements in this post however gun laws changed over the course of 40 years. You can shoot someone 10 times and they can still pose a threat if they are still coming for you. In fact, there was a story of a LEO with a Glock .45 (forgot which model) that shot a man about 10-12 times with is .45 until the last shot was fired into the mans head, killing him. Both .45s and 9mm penetrate skin and bone, both are more than enough for SD. Only thing is that a 9mm offer more ammo than a .45. Its better to have it and not need it.

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Don't look, reload and shoot!

Another reason why I carry a .38 Special revolver.....

No court can accuse me of carrying a "hi cap" pistol shooting a "hand cannon" round. I carry a gun with a 6 round capacity in a caliber used by police officers for over 100 years.

I have been shooting revolvers for over 15 years now, and got pretty good with them. Give me my GP100 cut for full moonclips and I feel I can defend myself pretty well.

Lots of people carry 9mm's with 20 round mags, but would have trouble hitting the ground with it in a real life scenario. Launching a bunch of rounds in a self defense scenario is a bad idea, especially when there are innocent bystanders.

IMO the 9mm is a great round. My wheelguns far outnumber my autoloaders, but the majority of the pistols I own are 9mm's.

I think a lot of the guys who carry a 9mm with a 16 round mag plus multiple spare mags watch to many movies. I have no reason to engage in a prolonged gun battle. My way of thinking is that I can do something that LEOs can't, RUN! Besides, a high capacity 9mm is so bulky. I'll stick with my single stack. I feel confidant that 8 rounds will get me out of most situations. If that's not enough, I probably need more than a handgun.

Marcus, I am sure you feel yourself correct. My question to you is are you courts testifying in criminal cases almost every week? How often do you work for weeks with both defense and prosecution attorneys? How many hours daily do you spend going over the law books? How many jury selections have you sat through?

My life is just filled with the aforementioned things. and not just in one state but four. There are plenty of jailhouse lawyers saying people cannot be sent to jail for something as they sit next to that person. Others say the law allows for certain things and it does not.

I have had homicide cases that could not be lost but they were. I have had defense cases that was all but a done deal, even with the accused paying an attorney tens of thousands of dollars and then they still go to prison.

Go on and put ten rounds in someone. You will have a difficult time convencing a jury that you had to fire that many rounds. You will have a hard time following a medical doctor testifying that a person hit multiple times is still a major threat. This all assumes you got past the wrong place, wrong time, "who slapped John" and other situations that puts people in jails.

We have a petite lady locally that was being beat by a large 17 yr old "youth." She pulled a paring knife and stabbed him once. That lady sits in jail right now waiting someone to go her bond for stabbing someone that was on top of her, in public, during a beatdown. She cannot afford to make bail, much less hire a defense attorney.

Unless a person has been there, they will never understand what I am speaking of. I can only hope they never find themselves using the force they are prepared to use while thinking it is legal. There is no blanket laws that allows for everything to be legal.

Geeze, tough crowd. This is just a demo of a good shot holding target while rapid firing, and doing a very nice job. Kinda' like watching Jerry Miculek...enjoy it and move on. All the "real life" yadayada doesn't apply.

Bob

Bob, I admit the video was done for entertainment but it also implies self defense, which can be done with any type weapon or caliber of gun. There is a lot of difference in making a video and faced with real life. As today's national news showed, people emulate what they see in movies, videos or tv shows. That emulation gets people in trouble.

Excellent point though I think a lot of people are too philosophical and judgemental to enjoy any display for what it is. Also I'd just like to add IMO in any defense situation reguardless of legalities the first objective is stopping the threat. No matter how many hits a perp has taken if he is armed and has movement he still poses a major threat. I'd much rather have to explain why my actions were neccessary to preserve my life than to have someone deliver my ulogy.

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sticks-n-stones&hollowpoints

I enjoyed the video, the guy can shoot. As far as speculating about how is skills would hold up in a real world confrontation, well, clearly opinions vary but I like his chances. My first gun was a 639 with 8 an round mag and I never felt more rounds were needed. The next 9mm was the MP9c and I deliberately ordered it with the ten round mags. Two reasons, one I still feel ten is plenty and two I spend a fair amount of time back in California where ten is all they allow and I like to be legal (call me old fashioned). YMMV

I had a pretty fun time with a pack of half a dozen pit bulls a few years back. Lucky for me I had taken only about two or three steps from my car. If I had just been walking through that parking lot it would have been a much different lucky to still be alive story. I didn’t carry back then but I have had my 637 since before then. If it had been the difference of five fast well placed shots or 17, you better believe I would have preferred 17. More like the 10 from a Baby Glock or similar realistically. So if you are happy with five or six then that’s great. But I will never see why people excoriate each other over the choice of a single or double stack nine or forty. I don’t get why we would rip anyone for any gun ownership. That’s just gun owner on gun owner violence…

That's called a hook, which is a rhetorical device used to lure you into the clip. Pretty common really.

Bob

The 9mm would be better if the firearms was lubricated with the right lubricant....okay everybody discuss the right firearm lubricant.

Butter Flavor Crisco

As dad would have said: Him hero!

A good friend of mine is a LEO in Peru. A few years ago he had to shoot a BG. My friend used his off duty weapon, model 10 snubnose with LRN bullets. Two shots center mass was all it took and no more bad guy. My friend told me the trigger finger and the person attached to it is most important.

Methinks I will still try to emulate this shooter.

What you train to do you will do. Being able to quickly put shots on target, and swap out a mag is perfect. That is what I want to be able to do. My muscles will be trained to do just that.

Once the reflex is automatic, I can spend more time thinking with my head on where the threat is, is the threat over, is there another threat.

Actually I just posted this because I think the shooting is pretty darn good.

He's quick and accurate, but did you note that not one of those rounds penetrated the target? So much for the 9mm!

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Term limits!

Well, my two cents worth, I would rather be missed a 40 than hit by a 9mm.

Shot Placement is the King, Caliber is the Queen, Capacity is the Prince, the Number of rounds you
put into the Target is the Princess and the quality of the Gun is the Joker.

Rule 303

Was it supposed to penetrate a steel plate? Just asking.

Well trained in the weapon he was demo-ing. Realistically, if he can put, what?, 15 rounds on target with that much ease, then he can put 2in the center mass and one to the head just as easy. In my estimation, he made his point with a little theatric flair. Good shootin'

It doesn't matter if he was using a .22, a 9mm, or a .45. If he can place the shot in the right spot, he can take someone down. It's all about placement. No matter the caliber.

When I hear people say that 7-8 rounds of 45 is better than 16 rounds of 9mm I wonder how many fire fights they have been in.
If you look at police shooting stats, there is a hugh difference between the number of shots fired and hits.
If I'm bouncing and weav'n shooting at someone else that is jumping around I think I would stick with the motto= "A hit with a 22cal. is better than a loud miss with a 44mag."
The few friends I know that have really been in eyeball to eyeball gun fights ( military duty and on the streets back home)all say they didn't have time to line up the sights like you would at the range.
So a shot with just a 20% hit probability might be the shot that saves your life, so you take it.
And hope that IF you miss you still have more ammo to keep firing.
So with that said ,,, what do I carry?
- 5 shot model 642!-

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Jeb

It's "FAW-TEY"

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Forum consigliere

It does rekindle the nagging doubts in my subconscious... I only got 5 shots.

I'd hate to be on the recieving end of that volume of fire from a BG with a high capacity 9mm.

i learned this past weekend at a IDPA match that im not as good of a shot as i thought i was. I have a 9mm M&P, and moving wile shooting is very hard. so i am glad mine has 17+1. I was only allowed to use 10+1 in the chamber with the first mag and 10 in the others. if i did not stop to take aim it was hard to hit were i wanted. I did how ever not have to change mags like my brotherin law. he has a 1911 8 rounds. it seamed like he was constantly changing mags. and he did run out on one match so guess what 2 bad guys that could have goten him. thats out of 3 mags .. so my 2cents is placement of the bullet, gun controle, and the ability to move and shoot duck and cover.. if you can do this very well it dont matter what kind of bullet you have. he actually said he liked the stoping power of his big gun. and i needed to get rid of my squirt gun. i asked him to stand over there and let me shoot him with my squirt gun. HMMM he would not do it for some reason.. )) and how stressed out has a BIG BIG part in it. I can take aim and hit nails at 10 yards with my gun. but during the match I shot everything but the bad guys. Go figure.. just my 2 cents

A hole is a hole is a hole. Put enough holes in a man and he will calm down. Put them in the right place and he will calm down more quickly. Put a lot of holes in him and he will calm down quicker than if you just put a single hole in him. When in doubt, put more holes in him till he is suitably calmed down enough to lie down and stop causing problems. A 9mm is a fine hole maker. So is a .40 S&W. If one has a .45ACP handy, they work well. There are many instances in which the lowly .38 Special has proven to be an effective hole maker. And even a .22 LR will work... if you can shoot.

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I have to laugh at people that poopoo the 9mm as small and weak and then talk up the 45ACP like it spits out some kind of magic voodoo bullets. Face it, in the big picture they are both too weak. They are handguns cartriges.

If the bad guys called ahead what would you really pull out of the safe? A 12ga or an AR.

Everything about guns is a compromise. With handguns we give up power for size.

I don't know why so many put the 9mm down. Personally, I have nothing chambered for it, thus I don't use it, but I certainly would not want to take one (or 15) to the chest with it.

My carry platform is 12 rounds of 357- 7 in a 686, 5 in an M&P 340. I sometimes wonder about getting something that carries more rounds, but revolvers are what I "know" and shoot best, so I stick with them.

It's fun to watch is all. Who cares what calibre it is. I don't think he was trying to make a scientific or tactical statement. Just having some fun.

If you want to get really technical, the chances of hitting a BG with one or two well-placed shots that will stop 'em dead in their tracks is very small. Moving target, adrenaline dump, evasion on your part (if needed) and shooting proficiency to begin with are all factors that cannot be replicated unless you are in that situation. Recent stats have shown that police (those supposedly trained in the use of firearms) only shoot and kill the BG 22% of the time they actually fire. If the LEOs are receiving any kind of fire in return, the number drops to 9%.

Realistically speaking, in a SD situation, you want multiple holes around the center mass area. Assuming you don't get an instant heart or head shot (which we now know to be unlikely) you want as many holes as possible so the BG will bleed out and go into shock. Two holes are better than 1. 3 holes are better than 2, etc. Bigger holes are better than smaller ones. Keep on shooting until the threat is gone.

Then go puke. It's going to be messy.

He's got one thing going for him, confidence.

Entertaining video.
Entertaining thread.
Arguments that will never be settled.
What more could a Redneck Curmudgeon ask for on a Saturday that's too wet & cold to go to the range and the NASCAR race not starting until suppertime?

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Age + Treachery = JohnnieB

9mm will kill no doubt about it. Shoot placement is most important. If your off on your shot though and hit someone off to the side instead of the center a bigger bullet had a better chance of taking him out of the game.

seems the German Army did fairly well with 9mm sub-guns to the tune of around a million or so Russkis at Stalingrad.

Wow, how many times in print has the 9mm vs. Big Bore Whatever been discussed?

I think he was just showing what can be done with a high capacity 9mm, I don't think it was meant to convey he would just stand there and empty the gun at a bad guy.

My daily carry is a Ruger SP-101, a five shot .357. I don't feel in the slightest that I'm undergunned. However, in the past, I've carried a Browning Hi-Power, and I didn't feel undergunned with that, either.

I think it all boils down to having confidence in yourself first, and confidence in your weapon of choice second.

Well, we have another video of a guy who can shoot into a steel target with rapid speed and accuracy. What he proved was that he is a good shot. Wahoo. All that he proved to me is that his gun can fire into a target and make a pinging noise. I see alot of guys I work with who are about his age that go to the range and do the exact same thing. They get their hands on something with a high capacity magazine and they think it is the greatest thing in the world to empty it faster than a junkie can find a vein. I have long since believed that shot placement is the key to good marksmanship. Someone mentioned Jerry Miculek. Jerry shoots for competiton, this guy is trying to get a point across about the 9mm and personal defense. Is the 9mm ok for personal defense? That's his choice, I look at its track record and say no. Granted I carry a .38 Special on occasion, but I know that I can hit what I aim at with it, and I also have my own loads that I worked up for it. I also carry a .357 and a .41 Magnum, also with the loads that I have worked up for it. I have also carried .44 Specials, .44 Magnums, .45 Colts and .45 ACP's. I practice with them like any other gun. I practice the way I have been taught. Double taps work great, hip shots work great, and I don't think I need to empty the entire gun into a target to prove my point, that's just wasting ammo.
If this guy wants to prove how good the 9mm is instead of his shooting abilities, maybe he should go out and do some real ballistics testing with it, because even my .22 pistol can make pinging noises on a target too.

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Vaya con Dios

Oh yes, they did. Bundesarchiv Picture 183-E0406-0022-011
Sorry, as a trained historian whose family was involved in the Stalingrad on both sides could not pass your comment. It was Luftwafe that performed admirably there: Germans cleaned out 90% of the city, but lost it all in the bloodiest house-to-house battle. Here is an example

German is on the left, Russky is on the right:



And does not the lowly 38 special equal to 9mm Browning?

and well indeed Hitler lost a million of the best troops he had there also, casualties and captured. few returned home, IIRC about 6K out of about 100K captured.
both sides made use of 9mm subguns/carbines.
a nephew and myself own 9mm carbines, I load some +P loads (his kel-tec even prefers them to regular factory loads) that do well in them.
awhile back we stacked up mud-crusted and frozen chunks of 2X6 spruce 5 deep and he shot a round into the stack the 124gr hp slug stopped in the 5th piece and some of the 2x's split down the length of.

Can you clarify your position? The video shows a guy that can hit what he aims at, and can deliver an amazing amount of firepower accurately. You seem unimpressed, yet you say you carry a .38 and can hit what you aim at.

I'm not trying to insult you or belittle you in any way. I'd like to know what your thoughts are. Is he an idiot showing his skills with a 9mm but you carrying a .38 that you can hit a target with is better? I don't understand.

Now I'll carry a .380 (if it ever gets here ) and I believe shot placement is king. I believe more shots are good (big mags) and if those shots are on target I believe you demonstrate the ability to align the sights and control the weapon. I believe someone that can do this quickly and accurately has an advantage over someone that can only hit a target after 5 seconds of grip adjustment and breathing exercises. I believe if this guy had to duck and run, then jump up and take a couple quick shots he is demonstrating that he can acquire a target quickly and follow up with multiple shots.

I do not understand anyone bashing what I think is a fine display of accuracy and control. I cannot shoot any of my large caliber pistols like this yet, but I'll work on it.

I think the demonstration was how effectively a 9mm can be employed, and then the close up of the previously clean target shows what happens on the other end, I don't think tactics were high on his list to display. What I find myself asking in discussions like this is, do I want to find out first hand how effective a 9 is, personally? No thanks, nor any of my rim fires either. But there is something to be said for volume of fire. Some of you may remember having to stand at attention and scream "when fired upon, return fire, gain fire superiority, and maintain fire superiority." Flapjack