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  #51  
Old 03-13-2011, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
Hold on a second while I don my flame suit......

OK, here goes. Having a concealed weapons permit does not mean you are a good guy or are particularly law-abiding. In a "shall issue" state it means you don't have any felony convictions, you may have taken a quickie CCW course, and you paid a fee.

I worked a Hell's Angel "fun run" in Montana a while back. Quite a few of those boys obligingly handed over concealed weapons permits when stopped. Non-felons legally carrying? Yes. Good guys? No.

I know it doesn't apply to the fine folks here, but there are dirtbags with permits out there. The cops just want to have all the information that is legally available to them when they make their approach to the vehicle.
Noted. Thank you.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:00 AM
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I know it doesn't apply to the fine folks here, but there are dirtbags with permits out there.

And badges!
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  #53  
Old 03-13-2011, 10:06 AM
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I'm inclined to disagree with this sentiment. The simple fact is that every single Police Officer has as much right to go home at the end of his shift as any other person. Think about the recent spike in police officers who've been shot and consider that every single officer in this nation is aware of that spike. Without notification I can assure that they will not react gently if they spot that you are armed and have not informed them of that fact. At least with notification and the linking of carry permits to license records the police have some advance notice. Yeah, it does introduce the potential for a Felony Stop but I haven't seen any indication of this being done in my area, generally Felony stops are triggered by overt actions on the part of the driver or a report of that particular vehicle being used in a recent crime.
  1. Requiring a NON-criminal to notify that he's carrying has exactly WHAT effect on a criminal who's carrying unlawfully?
    The guy who just robbed a liquor store is going to notify? It's nothing but harassment of NON-criminals.
  2. We all have a choice, obey the law or not. Not is a bad choice, whether you're an LEO or a citizen. If the law doesn't require me to notify, I'm not going to do it. If a cop doesn't like the law and acts out because of it, there will be consequences. "Officer safety" is NOT a pass to commit crimes and civil torts. If any LEO feels that he cannot BOTH obey the law AND do his job, I encourage him to find alternate employment.
  3. Again, this was NOT a matter of LEOs failing to know the law (inexcusable at any rate). It was a matter of LEOs ORDERING a citizen NOT to do something then ARRESTING him for OBEYING THEIR ORDERS.

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So, my immediate question pertaining to that Beechwood stop is what was the driver doing that caused him to be the subject of a Felony Stop? The simple fact is that Felony Stops require a lot of manpower to execute properly and aren't undertaken without some cause.
The victim had a shouting match with his girlfriend. He left the house alone. There was no violence, nor any threats. A friend of the girlfriend called police who executed the felony stop on the basis of erroneous information.

The nature of the stop is completely and utterly irrelevant. He was not charged with a crime relating to the friend's call. He was charged with and tried for "failure to 'promptly' notify"... AT THE DIRECT ORDER OF THE OFFICERS ON THE SCENE. It wouldn't matter if they suspected that he had a trunk full of weaponized anthrax. Any time police order a person to do or not do something, then ARREST him for OBEYING THEIR ORDERS, that is prima facia malice and shocking misconduct.

No matter how you tie yourself into knots trying to deny it, what the Beachwood Police did was despicable. They should no longer have the legal opportunity to engage in that specific misconduct. Notification of LEOs by CHL holders needs to eliminated.

Last edited by cmort666; 03-13-2011 at 10:09 AM.
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  #54  
Old 03-13-2011, 10:19 AM
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Whenever I drive through Beachwood (maybe twice a year) I ALWAYS drive the speed limit and not one mile per hour over! Too many stories like this one or of people getting pulled over for driving 3 miles over the speed limit and getting huge fines.

That and I'm usually going to my brother's house up the lake shore to shoot and have multiple guns in the trunk (all locked up with trigger locks on them and the ammo locked in a separate ammo can!).
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Old 03-13-2011, 11:38 AM
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In NY State it's connected. Of course we always try to avoid being pulled over but if I ever do my hands are both holding the top of the steering wheel when approached by the officer. We do not have to inform the officer but will be sure to be asked if they run the license. I have actually gotten off in the past on getting a ticket because I showed a gun the officer liked and wished he had. That was over 20 years ago so I'm sure things have changed.
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  #56  
Old 03-13-2011, 12:01 PM
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I'm not aware of any requirement to inform an LEO of having a CCW here in Pa, but I consider it appropriate to do so, at the very least, a courtesy.
Last year at this time I had just picked up two revolvers at a local gun shop and was driving home when I was pulled over by a local LEO. I was coming through an unfamiliar area of a small town and did not see the change in speed limit from 35 to 25 mph. I was really, REALLY, sweating it as I did not initially know the reason for the stop when I pulled over at the first convenient place. Also, it was the first time I had been in possession of a handgun in over 20 years! So there I am, more than a little anxious, with two handguns on the seat beside me and an LEO getting ready walk up and say howdy! Pulled my keys from the ignition and placed them on the dash, then kept both hands in full view on the steering wheel. When he came up to my window and greeted me I returned his greeting and said that he needed to know that there were two unloaded handguns on the seat beside me. He said "What was that!" and I repeated it. He leaned down and took a closer look then asked me for my drivers license.
I volunteered to show him my CCW but he declined. The rest was anti-climatic. He said that I was going a little too fast and to "next time, just watch your speed closer" and let me off with a have a nice day! If the guns had not been in view, as in the trunk, glove box or cased, I would have probably not said anything about them unless asked.
I realize that this occurrence was no big deal. It wasn't a life threatening situation and I'm sure the background check he did on my plate before approaching me showed little, but there is always the potential in any situation for overreaction. Being in a small, rural community also had a bearing. I would have kept the guns out of site if it was a large city or suburban area.
In situations like this it has always been my experience that being calm and courteous helps to ease things. I may not always agree with how any one particular LEO behaves, or anyone for that matter, but I realize that they have a hazardous profession, and have to deal with all sorts of low life and tense situations. They deserve the respect of the public they serve. Common courtesy may not seem like much but it's effects are usually positive for everyone involved.
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  #57  
Old 03-13-2011, 12:26 PM
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I agree about not all CCW holders are good guys. I attended a gun show in Valley Forge and decided to wait outside the entrance to the show (entrance was indoors inside a hotel) and watch as people entering had to check their guns at the door (hey put plastic zip ties through the guns and let you take them into the show). Let me tell you, be afraid, be very afraid - I wouldn't trust half these guys to walk my dog let alone carry a gun.

PA is a shall issue state. Your permit means you have never been caught, nothing more.
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Old 03-13-2011, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by yncrogers View Post
PA is a shall issue state. Your permit means you have never been caught, nothing more.
Does the above mean that you are against shall issue CCW?

California and New York City are "may issue". Your credential means that you have money and know somebody. Better criteria?
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Old 03-13-2011, 02:45 PM
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Cmort, consider this a bit of advice and not a criticism because I really don't intend to start a fight. However, I've noticed that you have a distinct animosity towards the Police in your posts and would advise you to think about something.

That is that any Police officer you come in contact with will pick up on that animosity immediately and will respond to it by taking a "hard line" approach. This means that you are going to continue to have bad experiences with the Police and it is going to be in large part due to your attitude.

I'd also like you to think about what the line officers of today face. In many areas Policing has shifted in large part from protecting the public to an income generating operation. Many communities have had to do this because it's the only way that they can keep their police departments funded, unfortunatey between dropping property values, declining employment, and a reduction in taxes collected, the only way many communities can continue to operate a police force is by using their officers as tax collectors. I can assure you that the police officers don't appreciate being used this way but with so many departments closing they go along with the program so they can keep their jobs. What this means is the today's police officers are expected to write citations that 20 years ago would have earned them a lecture from the administrator in a Mayor's Court.

Put yourself in the line officers place, in order to keep working you're expected to hand in a certain number of citations every day, even if they are for something as minor as a 2 over the limit infraction. I know a few cops and I can tell you that every single one of them just LOATHES doing this. However, they do it because they have mouths to feed and not a lot of options concerning finding work at a different department. If you haven't noticed, there are a lot of well qualified police officers looking for work nationwide because their police department closed up shop. So, before that officer even exits his car he's not in the best frame of mind. Now, consider what takes place when he is immediately greeted by someone who is obviously distinctly hostile, the result is anything but a pleasent encounter. You should also remember that there have been many police officers who were greeted with gunfire. Fact is that it's not an easy career path and today it's become just miserable.

Now, it happens that back in the 70's I worked at the Sohio station at exit 13 on the turnpike in Boston Heights. At that time the Boston Heights PD had the highest income in the entire state per capita of any community in Ohio. On the face, it was a real speed trap, however the Boston Heights PD didn't pull anyone over if they were less than 20 mph over the limit on Rt. 8. While working there I had a lot of contact with the BHPD an Staties from the turnpike. One bit of advice from a sargent with OHP stuck and has proven to be invaluable to me. That was to be as pleasent and courtious during the stop as I would be with my father. It's not the place or the time to argue about specifics of the infraction, we have courts for that. Be nice, be calm, be willing to take your lumps, and you may get nothing more than a warning to slow down. That's actually worked well for me for over 40 years and I've actually had officers testify on my behalf on 2 seperate occasions when I did get cited and appeared in court. The first time the Mayor's court administrator dismissed the charge and the second time the fine was cut in half with no record imposed provided I satisfied a 6 month probation with no violations.

Just something to think about. The police today don't have an easy job to do and just a bit of courtesy and a good joke can go a long way towards getting a break. You won't always get off with a warning but I think that you'd be very surprized and how often being pleasent can result in getting nothing more than a warning.
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Old 03-13-2011, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by scooter123 View Post
Cmort, consider this a bit of advice and not a criticism because I really don't intend to start a fight. However, I've noticed that you have a distinct animosity towards the Police in your posts and would advise you to think about something.
I have an animosity toward people who violate the law, including people who believe that they can enforce the law without actually obeying it themselves.

Nobody has to like the law, merely obey it. There's no exception for LEOs.

It doesn't matter what either the LEO or I "face". What matters is our choice to obey or disobey the law.
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Old 03-13-2011, 04:10 PM
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Cmort -

I love the fact that PA is a shall issue state. I do not like the fact that as long as you have never been caught (i.e. you don't have a police record) you can carry a gun with no training. Just go to your LGS, plunk your money on the counter and walk out with the gun of your choice. Go to your local police, fill out papers, wait a couple weeks and take finished papers to courthouse - ta-da you can now carry said gun just about anywhere. I grew up around guns, spent 21 years in the Navy and currently carry on a daily basis. I would not be against having to take a basic gun safety course to get my CCW.
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Old 03-13-2011, 04:30 PM
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Cmort -

I love the fact that PA is a shall issue state. I do not like the fact that as long as you have never been caught (i.e. you don't have a police record) you can carry a gun with no training. Just go to your LGS, plunk your money on the counter and walk out with the gun of your choice. Go to your local police, fill out papers, wait a couple weeks and take finished papers to courthouse - ta-da you can now carry said gun just about anywhere. I grew up around guns, spent 21 years in the Navy and currently carry on a daily basis. I would not be against having to take a basic gun safety course to get my CCW.
Ohio has a training requirement for CCW.

Is there any empirical data which shows that holders of PA LTCFs are any less safe with firearms than Ohioans with CHLs?

Were I to set the standard in Ohio, I would eliminate the requirement for firearms training and devote exactly the same time to Ohio firearms, self-defense and concealed carry law.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a SINGLE instance where an Ohio CHL holder got into a jam because he didn't know his firearm or how to shoot. I can think of many instances where there was trouble because CHL holders and (far WORSE) LEOs didn't know the law. I advise everyone who asks me about getting an Ohio CHL to know AND obey the law, both because they have a legal duty to do so, and because you simply cannot count on Ohio LEOs to know it.

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as you have never been caught
I find this especially disturbing. You do realize that exactly the same applies to any LEO, don't you?
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Old 03-13-2011, 04:47 PM
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In GA, they are not connected. No duty to inform. I've always been a little on the fence on this. While I think it's probably okay do inform an officer out of courtesy, I've also heard of people being treated as a criminal for legally carrying. Including having the officer's gun pointed at their head. Not something I want to experience.
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Old 03-13-2011, 05:31 PM
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In patchwork NY, some counties tie into the DL database, some do not. No duty to inform here.
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Old 03-13-2011, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by yncrogers View Post
Cmort -

I love the fact that PA is a shall issue state. I do not like the fact that as long as you have never been caught (i.e. you don't have a police record) you can carry a gun with no training. Just go to your LGS, plunk your money on the counter and walk out with the gun of your choice. Go to your local police, fill out papers, wait a couple weeks and take finished papers to courthouse - ta-da you can now carry said gun just about anywhere. I grew up around guns, spent 21 years in the Navy and currently carry on a daily basis. I would not be against having to take a basic gun safety course to get my CCW.
Well , in a way I agree. Seeing as how I was shot by a friend with a pistol , a permit , and zero training. But it still boils down to each individual taking responsibility for their own actions.
Who's gonna say just what the course should consist of? And how much the fee should be! The state or local police? Heck , many of them are just as dangerous. And I dare say most don't like civillians carrying guns.
There have been several incidents of cops and accidental discharges in the news the past years , including a few cops getting shot and killed by fellow officers.

I grew up around guns too. Got my first .22 revolver at 15. Been a casual and competitive shooter , collector and occasionally a dealer ever since.
The gun club I belonged to many years ago , before my Navy days , offered NRA basic , advanced and instructor courses as well as PA Act-231 certification. I took them when I was 18.

As you may know , the Navy offered very little in pistol training besides yearly qualification. Even getting qualified as a rangemaster was a joke. At least back in my day.
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Old 03-22-2017, 02:02 PM
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Sorry to revive this thread, but does anyone know if Louisiana connects theirs?
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Old 03-22-2017, 02:42 PM
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Sorry to revive this thread, but does anyone know if Louisiana connects theirs?
With technology today, I would be amazed if they didn't. Additionally, if CCW/CPL's ever become treated the same as driver's licenses, which is to say recognized in every state, I wouldn't be surprised to see a system that verifies you have a permit no matter what state you are in. Some have a problem with this, but I'm not one of them.
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Old 03-22-2017, 03:10 PM
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I found out something today that I have wondered about since 1996. Today a lady officer stopped me for making a left turn on red, the only problem was she was meeting me and said I didnt have a green lite, but I did and wife witnessed that the lites being green so I got off with out a summons.
Color me baffled by this part of the post.
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Old 03-22-2017, 03:34 PM
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hello forum;

just weighing in with my 2 cents. I live in Virginia....a "shall issue" state, and yes...to my knowledge we are also a "shall inform" state. I believe (like some of the above posters) that it comes down to attitude and courtesy toward any LEO that I run across no matter (to me) whether right or wrong on my part.

Of course having a daughter who is North Carolina State LEO adjusts my own attitude and outlook on her life too.

One other thing I feel that I have to do for my family, and the extended family. I've got 9 kids, several sets of their spouses and 10 grandkids so many years ago I printed up a little piece of paper and stuck it in the folder with Registration and Insurance Card, that lists their names and Drivers License numbers and giving permission to operate my VA registered Dodge pickup, along with a statement that "there are no concealed firearms or ammunition within this vehicle while being operated by any of the above individuals". The reason is simply that in VA they do have the permit right along with DL in the computer and like said before.....they know at least the registered owner may be carrying before they ever step out of the patrol car.

So far......a couple of stops for whatever reasons, and no issues when they show the paper with their license and my registration. Local LEO's have even commented that "Dad got it right", and let them go on their way.
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Old 03-22-2017, 05:22 PM
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hello forum;

just weighing in with my 2 cents. I live in Virginia....a "shall issue" state, and yes...to my knowledge we are also a "shall inform" state. I believe (like some of the above posters) that it comes down to attitude and courtesy toward any LEO that I run across no matter (to me) whether right or wrong on my part.

Of course having a daughter who is North Carolina State LEO adjusts my own attitude and outlook on her life too.

One other thing I feel that I have to do for my family, and the extended family. I've got 9 kids, several sets of their spouses and 10 grandkids so many years ago I printed up a little piece of paper and stuck it in the folder with Registration and Insurance Card, that lists their names and Drivers License numbers and giving permission to operate my VA registered Dodge pickup, along with a statement that "there are no concealed firearms or ammunition within this vehicle while being operated by any of the above individuals". The reason is simply that in VA they do have the permit right along with DL in the computer and like said before.....they know at least the registered owner may be carrying before they ever step out of the patrol car.

So far......a couple of stops for whatever reasons, and no issues when they show the paper with their license and my registration. Local LEO's have even commented that "Dad got it right", and let them go on their way.
Va is not a shall inform state. Please see state concealed carry FAQ
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Old 03-22-2017, 06:05 PM
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Florida - no. I read that it happens in so many places I asked a cop friend of mine.
I would check another resource. I'm pretty sure the two are connected in FL.
Wasn't there a case of a FL resident who got jammed up when he got pulled over in MD because it showed up on his DL?
I checked on this when I got my FL permit, I recall that it is linked to a FL DL but not to my PA DL.
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Old 03-22-2017, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
Hold on a second while I don my flame suit......

OK, here goes. Having a concealed weapons permit does not mean you are a good guy or are particularly law-abiding. In a "shall issue" state it means you don't have any felony convictions, you may have taken a quickie CCW course, and you paid a fee.

I worked a Hell's Angel "fun run" in Montana a while back. Quite a few of those boys obligingly handed over concealed weapons permits when stopped. Non-felons legally carrying? Yes. Good guys? No.

I know it doesn't apply to the fine folks here, but there are dirtbags with permits out there. The cops just want to have all the information that is legally available to them when they make their approach to the vehicle.
Point, counter point.
So what you are saying is that a person's CCW status means nothing as far as whether that person is a good or bad person, it also doesn't tell you if that person happens to be carrying at the time of not.
So what I'm getting from this is that information is useless and means nothing anyway.
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Old 03-22-2017, 07:18 PM
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In Illinois,

They are both issued by the state but by different agencies. DL ~ Secy of State. CCW ~ State Police. I believe that they are aware when they run the DL. However, I would inform at the earliest opportunity.
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Old 03-22-2017, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Ogandydancer View Post
North Carolina is also the same way. If they run your D/L your CCP pops up. We are also a "Must Inform State", so if you don't inform them when you are stopped then you are in violation.
its also tied to,the registered owner of the vehicle (license plate) in NC. When stopped. Hand over your CCW with your license and registration. Otherwise, you're suspicicious and maybe illegal.
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Old 03-22-2017, 08:56 PM
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As previously stated, in Texas you are required to show both I.D.s and you agreed to do so when filing your LTC paper work. I'm positive that the officer has a lap top in the cruiser and will show pink elephants wearing tutu's dancing across the screen indicating that you do have a LTC and had better show both I.D.s as I found out awhile back for a traffic violation.
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Old 03-22-2017, 08:57 PM
Mike, SC Hunter Mike, SC Hunter is offline
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In SC your DL pic comes on your CWP.....
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Old 03-23-2017, 08:19 AM
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Well I have got a few different answers about what is availablein the peoples republic of NY. You have to understand out pistol permit “system’’ is very complicate. It is basically a state system but for the most part operated by local authorities.

I talked with our Sheriff (he seems reasonable at least by NY standards) and he says at least from his county no CCW info is on your driver information.
A good friend of mine has a brother that is in the state police (sergeant) and I asked him about stuff like that and all I got in answer was a smile.

Our licenses do have some sort of a bar code type hieroglyphics on them so anything could be encoded there.
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Old 03-23-2017, 09:00 AM
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Well I have got a few different answers about what is availablein the peoples republic of NY. You have to understand out pistol permit “system’’ is very complicate. It is basically a state system but for the most part operated by local authorities.

I talked with our Sheriff (he seems reasonable at least by NY standards) and he says at least from his county no CCW info is on your driver information.
A good friend of mine has a brother that is in the state police (sergeant) and I asked him about stuff like that and all I got in answer was a smile.

Our licenses do have some sort of a bar code type hieroglyphics on them so anything could be encoded there.
On the re-cert form they ask for your DL#. Come Jan 2018 the SP and anyone else hooked into their database will have a definite link between DL and PP.
Maybe that's why the Sgt smiled.
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Old 03-23-2017, 09:07 AM
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Can LEOs in other states access the drivers license information in your state to determine if you have a concealed carry permit (CCP)? (NC ties the permit and Driver License (DL) together) My reason for asking is we travel to Baltimore, MD to visit the Grand Children and travel though that anti-gun state. I make sure that there is nothing gun related in the vehicle, not even an empty cartridge case! NC requires that both the DL and CCP be handed to the LEO when stopped. The last thing I want to do is to tell the MD LEO that I have a CCP so I just would rather hand them just my DL. I'm sure if they saw the CCP, I'd be spending a lot of time either on the side of the road or at the station. I never do anything to call attention to me but there is just the off chance you might get stopped.
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Old 03-23-2017, 09:11 AM
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At least in Wyoming the officer has a wealth of information when approaches your vehicle after the traffic stop and more when he runs your license . The CCW would be just one of many warrants , registration , insurance and any flags in the system like past criminal history , assaults on police officers ect .
My point do not feel that a CCW shows as some attach on your rights but what use are computer systems if not to provide as much potentially import information to the officer .
As a side note this is Wyoming and everyone has a firearm in their vehicle and a CCW does not provoke searchers { pat down } and cuffing . We are also on a computerized finger print system and Deputies do not strip in bars to gain information so not Absoraka County .
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Old 03-23-2017, 09:57 AM
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On the re-cert form they ask for your DL#. Come Jan 2018 the SP and anyone else hooked into their database will have a definite link between DL and PP.
Maybe that's why the Sgt smiled.
I saw that, though they will have to wait until about a month before the time limit is over before many people will send in that re-cert paperwork. Even our local sheriff said to do that, just send it in by "reply requested mail"
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Old 03-23-2017, 11:03 AM
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A big thanks to Chuck24 (see post # 70 above) for correcting me on Virginia "shall inform" or "must inform" State Law. He is absolutely correct as Virginia law actually states: " 18.2-308 (H)...The person issued the permit.....shall display the permit and a photo-identification.........upon demand by a law-enforcement officer."

Obviously the operative words are "upon demand".

I probably will not change my own "up front" mention of my permit if and when stopped, but Chuck24 is correct in that in Virginia, one is not required by law to do so unless asked by a LEO.
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Old 03-23-2017, 12:14 PM
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cmort,

I agree with all of your points. Well said.

-Informing an officer does nothing to curb crime. I like my privacy.
-Police do not have a right to abuse their power.
-I'm glad the guy was acquitted and I hope he sued.
-Training requirements are an infringement on our rights. If I can legally own a firearm, then I should be allowed to carry it.
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Old 03-23-2017, 01:09 PM
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I realize this thread is a little old, but since it hasn't been locked down, I wanted to mention something that reading all the above brings to mind.
First off, I don't care one way or the other about informing during a stop. If it helps the officer, fine. Happy to let them know.
What I don't understand is, aren't these officers approaching ALL stops considering a worse case scenario? How would somebody licensed and not informing them of it, make things more dangerous for the officer?
I can understand that by informing them of a license and gun would tend to be a reassuring thing, but can't agree with the notion of not informing as being so much more dangerous, to the point of being illegal and possibly worse.
I would approach all stops with the mindset that things could go south.
If they were up front and told me of the gun and permit? Thanks for your intent, but my mindset would remain the same.
I will disregard the abuse cases of doing either because I think they are the exception.
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Old 03-23-2017, 01:22 PM
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When I renewed my CCL in Texas they used my recently renewed drivers license picture for the picture on my CCL. The two are tied together in TX.
I read someplace that if you are carrying when you get stopped by a LEO then you are to show your CCL to the officer. IMO why ask for a possible problem by not showing both licenses? IMO that shows the officer I am not trying to hide anything from him.
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Old 03-23-2017, 01:26 PM
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I think a redefining of "free state" may be in order.
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Old 03-23-2017, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by NYlakesider View Post
I saw that, though they will have to wait until about a month before the time limit is over before many people will send in that re-cert paperwork. Even our local sheriff said to do that, just send it in by "reply requested mail"
From what I hear many people are waiting until the last day before sending in their paperwork. Better make sure to send it registered.
Some, a few on NY specific boards, "claim" they're not sending anything in but I don't see a good result from that approach. Sounds like internet bravado.
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Old 03-23-2017, 02:17 PM
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What I don't understand is, aren't these officers approaching ALL stops considering a worse case scenario? How would somebody licensed and not informing them of it, make things more dangerous for the officer?
You're exactly right.

A good cop doesn't care if you tell him you're carrying a gun or not. Why? Because he's going to assume you may be armed whether you tell him or not.

What some people don't understand, or don't want to believe, is that the "shall inform" aspect of some states' CPL statutes was not included for the COPS' protection, but rather for the CPL person's protection. It's mean so that the guy who forgets that his gun is in his waistband 2" away from where he's reaching for his driver license doesn't get his brains blown out onto the dashboard while he's reaching for his license.

The cops still don't have to let the bad guy get the first round off. That may change the way things are going, but up to now, if it's reasonable to think a person is about to shoot him, the officer can shoot first. Just speaking for myself, I'd consider a guy reaching toward a gun as a prelude to a gunfight. So, inform or not, no skin off my nose but the life you save may be your own, as they say.

Last edited by RSanch111; 03-23-2017 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 03-23-2017, 02:19 PM
dougb1946 dougb1946 is offline
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I expect any and every cop to assume that I am armed. I see no reason that they should assume a CCW is a sign of good intentions. Husbands kill wives and children, why would they not kill a cop?

Carrying a gun at home where you can only hurt yourself and your own don't require any training in most states. When you go out in public, it does. The 2A left that decision to the states. It effected only the Federal govt when enacted.

Never argue with a cop at the side of the road, unless you have a camera running, and even then, be polite. You are going to lose, and that is why we have courts, where you might win.

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Old 04-04-2017, 04:10 PM
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I learned the hard way that even in a state with no duty to inform, it's wise to just inform politely. I was told off by an officer in Everett, WA not very long ago. He takes my license, registration, proof of insurance, and comes back saying he sees I have a CPL, and asks if I'm currently armed. I of course admit that I am, and he goes off a bit and tells me how legally I'm supposed to inform him. For those that don't know WA state law, the wording states that you must inform an officer upon demand, not that you must inform them whenever you make contact. However, I didn't care to argue this point as this would've only angered him more. He said I should know better. I told him I would go home and review the law, which I did: RCW 9.41.050: Carrying firearms.
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(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so.
I have the whole incident on a dashcam video. He pulled me over because according to his visual speed estimation, I was going too fast. I am not upset over the underlying reason for the stop, just didn't appreciate being preached to regarding what he mistakenly believed was the law. I ended up getting only a verbal warning despite it all. As he accused me of reckless driving and not following the law regarding duty to inform, I'm not sure if that's because he actually wanted to cut me a break or just didn't have anything to back up his claims. Either way I'm sure he could've turned my already-bad day into a worse one if he was willing to put in the effort.

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Old 04-04-2017, 04:57 PM
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In Illinois when the police run your tag who ever it is registered to license shows .. and it does show if that person has a CCL .. I told my wife to make sure her hands are where they can be seen if ever stopped because they would think there is a weapon in the Jeep .. she doesn't have a CCL ..

The Sheriff who gave my CCL class said all of his people the first thing asked in a stop is if there are any weapons in the vehicle whether it shows on the plate or not .. and that should be the first thing said by the officer ..

I haven't been stopped in over 40 years so can not verify that !! I did have interaction with an officer when I was a witness to a car crash .. and told the officer I was carrying .. He said thanks for notifying and that was it .. later while waiting for a tow truck we started talking and he asked what I was carrying and some small talk about pistols .. said it was well concealed because he didn't pick up on it .. said he always looks at anyone approaching him .. I was carrying my Beretta PX-4 Sub Compact 9mm OWB @ 4:30 with a shirt/jacket as an outer cover garment ..
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Old 04-04-2017, 07:35 PM
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I learned the hard way that even in a state with no duty to inform, it's wise to just inform politely.
In Ohio, you ONLY have to inform if you have an Ohio CHL or equivalent AND are ARMED. Needless to say, Ohio cops have repeatedly demanded that UNARMED CHL holders notify.

I'm sure that this is due in some part to people notifying when NOT required to do.

Inevitably, the "courtesy" becomes a "duty" in some cops' minds.

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I was told off by an officer in Everett, WA not very long ago.
I had a similarly belligerent cop claim that open carry was a crime in Ohio. Strangely, neither he nor his partner could explain how when open carry was REQUIRED in a vehicle, it WASN'T "inducing panic". I wrote his chief reminding him of the legal perils inherent in false arrests.

Did you inform his superiors so that he didn't similarly abuse others?
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Old 04-05-2017, 06:39 PM
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Did you inform his superiors so that he didn't similarly abuse others?
I didn't end up taking any action afterward. Partly because I didn't know the officer's name as he never volunteered it, and I didn't have any paperwork to reference. I could've still sent an email to someone, so they could just make all their officers aware. But I really didn't want to cause problems for myself when I suppose it can be considered that I got lucky, as the officer was threatening to take me to jail and impound my car if there ever was a next time. And after that kind of speech, I can't say I'm eager to stir the pot, even if I may be in the right on the permit issue.
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Old 04-05-2017, 07:29 PM
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Maine does not tie your CCW to your drivers license.
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Old 04-05-2017, 08:28 PM
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What if you don't happen to be carrying at the time?
Do you have to inform them you aren't?
No. I was stopped last year on my motorcycle (they were on the lookout for stolen bikes in my area).
When the officer came back after running my plate an license she said that she saw that I had a concealed carry permit. I said yes ma'am I do, but I'm not carrying right now. She said OK, please drive safely.
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Old 04-12-2017, 03:39 PM
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Maine does not tie your CCW to your drivers license.





Interesting because the new ME quasi-Constitutional carry law states that if you are carrying and do NOT have a ME license, you MUST declare. If you are carrying and do have a ME license, you do NOT have to declare!


MA, NH and VT do not require you to declare.


In MA if the cruiser MDT is running CJISweb software, running the tags will show LTC/FID if registered owner has one and running the DL will show LTC/FID as well. Some officers in Eastern MA will likely treat it as a "felony stop" if you declare, so it is risky business.
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Old 04-12-2017, 06:30 PM
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Post #16 asked why DMV would alert an officer that the driver had a ccw permit. Any working cop wants to know as much as possible about the driver he/she is approaching. It's for officer safety and it's something I'd want to know in advance, if I was still a working cop. My state does the same and I have no problem with it.
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Old 04-12-2017, 06:59 PM
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Man I am so fricken glad I live in the free state of Missouri.
No permit for open or concealed carry and no law stating I Must Inform LEO's I'm armed.
No blood running in the streets here.

But Chicago, New Jersy and all those anti 2A states and cities are war zones.
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Old 04-12-2017, 07:41 PM
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Virginia Section 18.2-308-H:

"The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer.

*during which he is carrying a concealed handgun*
*Upon demand by a law enforcement officer*


Pretty straight forward, any "compromise" is your choice. LEO often rant or make comments that we should always inform them, why...so they can further escalate? So we can give up rights to them so they can then further proceed to unwarranted searches and unnecessary delay? I follow the law and it clearly states what I must do. No more, no less.

You build the case against you with every word you say, so don't say anything.

If I ran a red light, or was speeding, give me the ticket, I will quickly be on my way and then cops can deal with the sad satisfaction that they are one ticket closer to their monthly quota.

Last edited by buckyjames1; 04-12-2017 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 04-12-2017, 08:14 PM
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I am in PA if I get pulled over I keep hands on the wheel and seat belt on . If they dont ask I dont tell .
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