I was watching one of Hickock45's videos (which are all awesome, IMO, and that guy can shoot!) and he raised a point in discussing a J-frame revolver that intrigued me. It's not the first time that I have read or heard that particular point, either...and that is, in a self defense situation, you should not cock a revolver, for legal ramifications. In other words, if you have to shoot in self defense, do so in DA mode (unless, of course, you are using a SA revolver.)

Here is the link, if you wish to review it:

YouTube - 642 S&W .38 Special (Airweight J frame)

I suppose it does eliminate the possibility of you firing accidentally...since the trigger is so much lighter in DA mode. Beyond that, though, I'm not sure I understand the ramifications of cocked versus DA mode in an intentional shooting. Now, I in no way question the knowledge of Hickock45, and certainly accept his expertise...I am seeking to understand, and not challenge.

It seems to me that if I have an intruder in my home, one that is coming toward me aggressively and representing a threat to me, and I have determined to fire, it should make little to no difference if I fire from SA mode or DA mode, in terms of legality and justifiability. (I am not debating the issue of accuracy, or mechanics, either.)

What am I missing here?

How is anyone , except you, going to know if you fired in DA or SA mode.

I personally don't see what difference it would make.

Well, I was wondering that myself...I guess if you were asked on the stand if you cocked the revolver before you fired, or if a witness said you did, then it could become known. Otherwise, I don't know how it could be determined from any physical evidence.

And, like you, I don't know what difference it could make anyway. Again we are talking about a case where you intended to shoot the bad guy, and there was no accident involved.

I'm not a lawyer, but I have researched this as well as having some training that included the legal aspects of self-defense, so take my post for whatever it's worth to you.

I think it has more to do with civil liability than criminal liability. The plaintiff's lawyer can make the argument that you cocked the hammer, creating a hair trigger, which sets the groundwork for an accidental discharge, which means they can sue you for negligence, which, if they win, means your insurance company will have to pay up money (assuming you have home owner's insurance). The plaintiff can get more money out of you through a negligence suit then an intentional tort suit. Apologies for the run-on sentence.

The way a prosecutor can manipulate a single-action shooting is to say that by cocking the hammer you intended to do the other person harm rather than stop him/her, which negates your claim of self-defense. Or it could be argued that cocking the hammer was a sign of wanton disregard for the safety of others, leading to some form of manslaughter or reckless endangerment charge, or something similar. Not to mention that it could be argued that cocking the hammer could be seen as intimidation, which, again, negates your claim of self-defense.

FYI, just because you shoot someone doesn't mean they die as a result. They could still be a "witness" to your actions. If your attacker dies it doesn't stop plaintiffs/prosecutors from making assumptions that support their arguments even if they don't have facts to support it, unless you can provide evidence to disprove those assumptions. By using a revolver that can't be cocked, you essentially take away those arguments from the plaintiff/prosecutor's tool box.

A lot of people will say "justified is justified" but you're not the one making that call...the jury or judge does (depending on whether it's a jury or bench trial). If you have a good lawyer, then he/she can probably counter any such claims. But again, it's up to the jury/judge to decide who's side they believe.

Of course, this is also beyond the practical aspect of using a DAO revolver for self-defense as trying to cock a hammer while someone is trying to kill me is more troublesome than simply pulling the trigger. There may be exceptions, such as physical disabilities that make it difficult to shoot DA, but those should be articulated and documented before anything bad happens.

FWIW, all my self-defense revolvers are DAO.

ContinentalOp,

Thanks for the reply.

Now, let me pose this question...if you use a traditional 1911 pistol or a SA revolver, both of which have to be manually cocked to fire the first round (and subsequent rounds from the SA revolver) would that negate any claim of recklessness, since it is a matter of function?

Frankly, it all borders on the absurd to me...and yes, I know, when you get involved with courts and lawyers, absurdity is the norm not the exception.

I would not take the time to cock a DA revolver in an emergency either, unless I had already cocked it and told the bad guy to stop or I would shoot. It seems to me that would be seen as a more reasoned and prudent action in the eyes of the law...a warning before firing...but then again, as the saying goes, the law may upset reason but reason may not upset the law.

It all goes back to the case of the State of NY vs. Frank Maglioto.

It's a case where someone who was being charged by a man armed with a club shot his assailent with a Colt revolver that had been cocked. He then told the Police and the Court that he didn't intend to shoot the assailant, he'd cocked the gun to try and scare off his attacker and it had discharged "accidentally". Since NY law doesn't have any provision for an "accidental" shooting being Justified, the result was a conviction for 2nd degree Murder that was later reduced to Manslaughter in a higher Court.

BTW, Massad Ayoob has written extensively on this case, unfortunately I was unsucsessful in finding his original article on this particular case. However I did find another posting which bears on this case. Do a google search of "sState of NY v. Frank Magliato" and you'll find his posting on the Gun Zone site.

Now one point is that a cocked revolver, or any single action pistol is MORE prone to an inadvertant discharge. IMO, while this case illustrates the legal risk of shooting with a light, or lightened trigger, I believe that it doesn't make one thing as clear as should be made. That is that if you ever have to draw your gun in preperation to defend yourself you must take every action you can to insure that the gun ONLY fires because you intended to fire it. That means you keep your bugger hook off the trigger unless you see a very real and present need to shoot your assailant. To be blunt, "I shot him to save my life" is a good Legal Defense and "I didn't mean to shoot him" is an invitation to Prison.

Personally, I prefer carrying with a Double Action trigger, in my case the Sig Sauer DA/SA trigger. Since I've never carried, or even owned a 1911 type pistol I don't trust that I'd remember to flip off a safety. With my Sig at a measured 10.5 lbs DA trigger pull it's not likly I'll discharge it without intention and I don't have to remember a safety it doesn't feature.

I think a lot of this came about from police officers holding suspects at gunpoint after having cocked their service revolver. The probability of an unintended discharge while holding a suspect with a cocked revolver is, I would think, quite high.

I can think of a few scenarios where it would be beneficial to have single action capability. Then again, the probability of those situations happening is astronomically low. For the most part, double action is the way to go.

__________________
Centennial Every Day

There are two sides to the question. First, reducing the chances of an un-intentional discharge are greatly reduced by using the gun only in double action. This is precisely the reason many law enforcement agencies required all their revolvers to be DAO, and why they only use DAO semi-automatic pistols.

The second side is what happens if you are actually involved in a shooting. Under stress of the situation you will never notice the trigger pull. You will likely never even recall that you heard the gun fire, let alone feel the recoil!! You need to do everything possible to be sure that if you fire a round that it was intentional! After the incident never, never, never say that the discharge was unintentional!

Think about this, how would it sound to you if you were on the jury and the officer testified that the first thing the shooter had said was "I didn't mean to shoot him, the gun just went off!" As a LEO I can tell you my reaction to this. To me it is the same as the shooter saying:

"I didn't mean to."

"I am irresponsible and incompetent to carry/handle a gun."

"I don't think I was justified in shooting."

Remember the admonition to never point a gun at something you don't intend to destroy?

You can probably think of several other infered statements contained within the claim of an un-intentional discharge by the shooter. Do you want to be him?????????????

__________________
Gunsmithing since 1961

Depends on distances and circumstances involved imo.

30 yards and in, DA is the way to go. 30 yards and out, I may choose to use the SA features of my weapon. That's one reason I don't have any revolvers with DAO bobbed hammers.

Just saying that trying to come up with some "rule" that encompasses EVERY aspect of mano v mano armed combat is a somewhat futile exercise. DA only is the fastest way to work the revolver within the above envelopes and can easily be mastered with the proper amount of training. At extended ranges, and you can hit at remarkably extended ranges with SA fire, SA may be more appropriate. Or if the presented target is a small one.

The phrase, "I don't remember" and "May I consult with an attorney" are also well worth remembering in ANY self defense situation you survive. When the legal system comes in, common sense goes out is the old saying...and it's true.

Just my .02.

First thing that comes to mind is WHY would you bother cocking it?

The whole point of a revolver with two actions is that you don't HAVE to cock the piece to get it into action.

Now, in the very rare event that you need to make a long range (more than 25 yds?) shot, cocking it would make sense as long as the lethal force need is still there.

I'm reminded of the Air Force SP who dropped the guy from long range who was shooting up the area with an AK type rifle... The SP rode up on his patrol bike and zapped the bad guy from IIRC around 75 yards with his M-9. Had that been back in the day when we were carrying Model 15s, I think it would have been a perfectly justifiable time to cock and fire.

Other than a situation like that, why would you?

Again, this is just my opinion and not legal advice of any kind, but I would say it shouldn't be an issue since that's how those guns are supposed to operate. I would be worried about a really light trigger pull. I know with 1911s it's suggested to stay above 4lbs. for the trigger pull. I have no experience or knowledge regarding SA revolvers, so I couldn't even guess at what an appropriate trigger pull weight would be.

That is a tough spot. I recently attended a lecture given by a self-defense instructor who had said something that might be of interest, though it may not parallel your hypothetical situation exactly. The subject of "shooting to wound" came up and he said that doing so implied that you were not in immediate fear of being seriously injured or killed, thus you were not justified in using deadly force. Instead, it would imply that you intended to harm the other person rather than stop him/her from harming you.

As you said, it's not difficult to get a situation twisted around when the law/legal system gets involved.

Anyone who either carries a gun for self defense or has one at home for home defense should give some serious thought to these issues. Do some research, take some classes, or, ideally, consult with a lawyer experienced with these issues in your area, and figure out the best way to proceed from there. Whatever you choose to do, it'd be a good idea to have a reasonable explanation for why you did what you did and be able to back that up with documentation of some kind.

In Texas, while we don't have a duty to retreat, I do think there is a common sense as well as moral consideration.

Suppose I hear a noise in the living room at 3am and go investigate...I see a man down on his knees, disconnecting my DVD player (obviously with intent to steal it; I didn't call a repairman in the middle of the night, nor did I let him in, so I think that is a logical assumption to make.) I don't think I would be justified, morally or legally, to shoot him in the back, nor has he threatened me yet...so, what I would do is advise him that I am armed, and that he should lay face down on the floor until the police arrive. Instead of doing that, he stands up and faces me...and has a knife in his hands. He is menacing me, and I am afraid, but he has not yet taken a step toward me. In that case, if my weapon is a DA revolver, I might cock the revolver and advise him again that I am armed and will shoot him if he doesn't drop the knife and lay face down on the floor. I would do so for these reasons:

1) Even though I have no duty to retreat, he has not yet taken a step toward me...and while he is apparently threatening me with the knife (a reasonable assumption) I can't say that I feel that shooting him is the only and last resort I have at the moment.

2) I hope that by cocking the revolver, the sound will register with him as a threat and compel him to comply.

3) At the distance involved (perhaps 15 to 20 feet) I am more likely to hit him, if I do have to fire, from a SA shot than a DA shot, given the situation (adrenaline, etc.)

That is the only scenario that I can readily envision in which I would take the time to cock a DA revolver before firing it. Other situations may not permit the time to cock first, even if you could.

If I do shoot, I am not going to shoot to wound, or shoot in the leg (at least not intentionally)...if I feel that the threat is sufficient for me to fire a gun at a human being, then I will be in fear for my life or the lives of my family, and I will do my best to eliminate that threat by using deadly force. I won't place myself or my family at even greater risk for the sake of the person(s) trying to kill me/them, by trying to minimize his injuries.

Edited to add: I do not put my finger on the trigger until I am ready to fire...no matter the type of action or state of readiness. I keep my finger outside the trigger guard until I am ready to pull the trigger.

So does this mean if you are using a pump shotgun as a home defense weapon, you can't rack a round in untill you are ready to shoot the BG?

Quote: if you use a traditional 1911 pistol or a SA revolver, both of which have to be manually cocked to fire the first round (and subsequent rounds from the SA revolver) would that negate any claim of recklessness, since it is a matter of function?

I think with a 1911 the question would be whether you moved the thumb safety to the off-safe position, since the gun wouldn't operate unless it was cocked. In other words, the gun is carried cocked and locked, but it still can't be accidentally/negligently discharged unless you flip the safety off, so the question changes from whether you cocked the gun to whether you took it off-safe (and "accidentally/negligently" shot someone with it).
Of course trying to explain all that to a jury who is selected because they know nothing about guns...

I'm not sure with the SA revolver, but since you have to cock it to fire it, doing so would definitely show an intent to shoot. Of course, if you were trying to lower the hammer after deciding not to shoot and the gun went off...

__________________
Ban lunatics and criminals

A lot of people evidently think so...since I have read many comments about the sound of racking the pump mechanism may scare away the bad guy, or words to that effect. Personally, if I was going to have a pump shotgun for home defense, I would have a round in the chamber and the safety on. I don't have one now, though in the past I did...and that's the way I kept it. (My brother-in-law wanted to buy it, and offered me more than I paid for it...so, not being one to let an opportunity go by to take advantage of him, I sold it to him. He's a jerk, so it's well deserved.)

Now I am trying to decide between a Coach gun, with internal hammers or a Serbu Super Shorty. Now, that's a gun no one needs...but need doesn't always enter into it, does it?

The beauty of a DA revolver is you don`t have to cock it.

I can imagine if I were in that type of life threatening situation I would be trembling, probably uncontrollably ,and cocking it smoothly and or correctly might not happen.

It would be easy to have you thumb slip off the hammer and if your finger was on the trigger - unintentional discharge. If you missed your target, you have lost your advantage and now you have a moving target.

I am a long time 1911 user , but not anymore . Now it`s a DA revolver in .41 mag caliber with an attached bright white light , to give positive ID and target aquission . I`d be yelling so loud at the Perp he`d never have heard the darn thing cocking anyway-not even a 12 ga pump!!

When the only part of your adversary that is momentarily exposed is small (foot exposed, half of head peeking around a corner, head of a hostage taker is partially exposed behind a hostage family member).I just gave you three (and the list could potentially be endless) where the target will be of opportunity, shot opportunity of short duration, and small in scale. In other words when only a quick precise shot will work.

Not arguing at all that for the VAST majority of self defense situations, particularly in the civilian arena, DA fire is superior. SA should NOT, imo, be used as a threat. If the threat is there, shoot, don't threaten back. ???????????

But in certain narrow circumstances the capabilities of a precise shot (is anyone going to argue that SA fire is not more precise, really?) may be the ONLY option you have. Why disregard it entirely?

Uh...no offense intended, but in the above scenario you described, do you think you're really going to do all this when confronted inside your home at 3am by a knife wielding intruder?

Really? Cock it and threaten inside of 15 feet? And in point of fact, you'll be more likely to make concentrated hits in DA mode, rather than SA. This assailant can be on you, gutting you out, in under a second and a half. You're going to want to talk to him?

Imo you should check the laws in Texas a tad more closely. I think you're rationalizing out actions and scenarios that you don't have to.

Just my .02.

You may very well be right...it's one thing to calmly discuss it here, and quite another to be in the situation. Still, I do not think I could shoot a man in the back, as I had described in my hypothetical scenario. I grant you that it is very likely that once I had told him to lay down, if he stood up and turned around with a knife in his hand, my reaction at that time of stress and fear might very well be to fire with no additional warning.

The reason that many departments, be they municipal or county, go for DAO side-arms is for the very reasons being discussed here. LIABILITY.

The departments that go with DAO do so to avoid the attorney in the courtroom asking their officers if they "have a hair-trigger in SA". With their DAO there is no doubt.

In all honesty, DAO also helps the rookie shooter with using the same trigger-pull on each shot.

Just my two-cents.....

__________________
GA Carry member
Vietnam Vet

For civilian CC holders a DAO revolver is IMO the best choice. By the time you have to reload the 6 rounds you just fired, I hope you are running by then.

Your job is to fire your weapon ONLY in the most dire of circumstances and then get to safety. Shoot and scoot. I can't find any data online of a single time when a civilian CCW holder got into a running gun battle with armed assailants and fired 3 mags through their Glock before it was resolved.

If you have to shoot an attacker it will probably be at very close range. When, as a civilian, do you envision having to take a 50 yard + shot with your handgun? When do you envision ever having to cock a hammer?

I won't get too long winded here but I work at my county courthouse and talk to lawyers, Deputy Sheriffs and judges almost every day and from what they have told me, after the shooting, your CC weapon will be taken into evidence and examined by the "crime lab", i.e. a police armorer. It depends on the circumstances and if God forbid any bystanders got hit by stray bullets. If it's found your gun has a "hair trigger", so they say,you could be in serious trouble, even if you never used single action to shoot. If there is no single action, there is no "hair trigger". Jury members and judges hear "cocked hammer" and they start thinking of some Wyatt Earp wannabe playing quick draw in the Quick-E-Mart parking lot with 2 crackheads.

A couple of comments. First, it's simply not possible from forensic examination of the weapon to positively determine if the revolver fired single or double action. This allows the opposing attorney to allege that the weapon was in fact cocked and fired accidentally. [Recall that they're free to present their "theory of the incident".] Please note that it also prevents you from introducing physical evidence that your shot was intentional.

If opposing counsel is the prosecutor, they've now got a shot (pardon the pun) at a possible manslaughter conviction. If plaintiffs attorney, triple damages as a result of negligent injury/death.

While keeping the single action capability of your revolver might seem attractive for specialized circumstances, I'm not sure it's realistic. Let's be honest here. If you think you might need the edge (especially with a snubby), could you really justify taking the shot in the real world? If you're on the fence, get another trigger or hammer fitted and have a gunsmith remove the single action sear from it for defensive use. You'll still have the original available. Save the receipts so you can prove the removal was an intentional act on your part.

Given a 1911 it's a non-issue so long as your trigger pull weight is within factory (or commonly accepted) guidelines for a service weapon. I'd strongly suggest this would be a minimum 4 lbs.

Such advice as to not cock a revolver or carry a semi in Condition 1 (cocked and locked) is, quite simply, hogwash. It cannot be ascertained and, even if admitted, is simply indicative of how serious you perceived the threat. In one case, I remember, specifically, cocking the gun was perceived as an equivalent to a warning - which the jury felt was important (even if not required in law).

Too many self-appointed-instructors want to impress their audience with their vast knowledge, which often times spills over in legal ramifications. Too many times, they blow smoke out of their butts.

By the way, I was with the Office of the Public Defender of Maryland for 5 years and was Legal Coordinator and Supervisor with the PA Dept. of Corrections, at SCI Greene. While not an attorney (legal assistant), I have been in the business for +35 years. Believe me, if cocked or cocked and locked does not adversely effect a Jury in a State as liberal as Maryland and a city like Baltimore, it's pretty much a non-issue.

Cocking a hammer as a "warning" is Hollywood bull"squeeze". If a bad guy isn't scared by the sight of a gun pointed at him, the sound of a cocked hammer won't do much good.

Realistically, think of the odds..........the odds of a civilian having to actually shoot an intruder or attacker are extremely low. It can happen, not that you shouldn't be prepared for it, but the odds are low.

There are pros and cons of all sides. If you shoot an attacker with a Glock, the prosecutor will say you had a "hi cap assault pistol". You have a 1911 and it's a "hand cannon" No matter what you use there's a way to poke holes in it. I feel for my own use that a DAO .38 Special revolver loaded with +P FMJ will be enough for absolute last-ditch self defense, which is what a CC gun is for.

From what I have been told by the people I work with, the only time you will really be raked over the coals is if there is some question as to the justification of the shooting or if an innocent bystander gets hit. It is easier to "lose" a case in civil court than criminal court. Civil court is probably where the whole "cocked hammer" thing will come into play, when the guy you shot has a family that comes out of the woodwork and wants to sue you for "shooting their troubled and misguided son" who tried to rob you for crack money.

Make no mistake, this issue HAS come up in court, criminal and civil, many times. As some have mentioned, Massad Ayoob has written about it extensively over the years and maybe he'll add his thoughts here.
One issue nobody has brought up I think needs consideration. If you are involved in an armed encounter, bad things are going to happen to your nervous system. Your heart will beat much faster, blood flow will be directed away from your extremities, your fine motor skills will be less fine. Plus you will be totally focused (hopefully) on the threat. If you cock your revolver and you have your finger on the trigger (yes, I know Rule #3, but some folks don't follow that rule) you will not have the same sensitivity you have at the range. An unintended discharge is much more likely with a cocked revolver. That is never a good thing.
But lets say you got lucky and the bad guy backed down. You still have the same physical condition described above, oh and lets not forget, most people are scared to boot. You are now holding a cocked revolver. What do you think are the chances you may forget to decock? I think they're pretty good, and in the condition described it may not be as easy as on the range.
I feel cocking a revolver is a very bad idea. True, a 1911 type pistol has to be cocked to be used, but the thumb safety is much easier to apply, and is usually much more ingrained in your training.
Most trainers would tell you, use the DA feature.
Jim

Hollywood is the biggest enemy to many people.......in a lot of cases it's the only "training" they get, or they try to emulate what they see on TV in any kind of training they do.

Like the all too common home-defense "advice" to rack your shotgun to "send the bad guys running", which in reality will only announce your presence and invite the PCP addled intruders to play............the mistaken notion that the thunderous click of cocking your .357 will establish your authority and take control of the situation..........is pure nonsense.

I've shot tons of double action revolver matches, and shot hundreds of times more, per event, at the range practicing. I assure you that if I'm ever forced to use deadly force that I'll be shooting double action.

That's my story . . . and I'm stickin' to it. Prove it differently in court!

BTW,

1. I've read that many victims of middle of the night robberies die when they surprise the BG by ordering the BG to "freeze" (or whatever). To a "methed" out doper, desperately trying to steal something without getting caught, they may crank a round towards the sound of your command and hit you or someone in their family. NOT GOOD!!!

It is said that you should stay in your "safe room," arm yourself and call "Dial-A-Prayer." That's hard to do when you've got young loved ones in other rooms. If you must leave your safe room to move through your house towards a potential threat, you are the aggressor against one who is more alert and prepared as you. Ordering them to "Halt" might be the last word you ever utter.

2. Inside of 19 feet, an aggressor with a knife can suddenly move on a man with a handgun and kill the one with a gun . . . even if the BG bleeds out later. NOT GOOD.

Folks, if you are confronted by a threat inside your home, you'd better be smart . . . and make sure you live to see another day . . . even if that day is in civil court. Someone invading your locked home is NOT up to any good.

No one wins in a shooting, even if it is ruled justified later, and we are responsible for every bullet we launch. Practice, prepare and, if you aren't willing to keep your skills up, are still not sure what to do . . . sell your guns and leave yourself and your family to the mercy of the typical scared and strung-out BG.

I'm not selling my guns, and I'm not prepared to allow a BG to invade my home and menace or harm anyone in my family.

This is most excellent advice. No warning. An intruder gives up his right to any kind of consideration by entering. For the reasons stated above, I also shun lights and lasers. I keep little "night lights" burning in the front of the house and keep the bedroom end in the dark. I keep the bedroom door "pushed to" but do not close it - just to keep from signalling my position. Finally, as noted above, I do not stop to ascertain anything more than the target. Hesitation can get me cut really bad - or shot - and I will not give an intruder that option.

I have heard many good arguments and discussions on deadly force, and a lot of speculation as to what many of you would do if certain situations presented themselves. While reading some of these I often wonder if the person posting has ever had to use deadly force to protect himself or another. The reason I ask is because once you are involved in a deadly force situation it tends to change your perspective on many things in life, and not just tactics. Years ago I use to always think that I would react to a deadly force encounter like they do in the movies and then aftewards I would be calm and collected.....not true at all and I was very mistaken about myself. I pray that I will never have to use deadly force again but I am blessed that I was able to walk away and to be able to learn that much about myself that otherwise I would of never known.

I agree with the idea that, if you cocked the hammer in a tense situation, you may forget to un cock it or it may go off accidentally when you try and do so. You're under a lot of pressure and perhaps not thinking clearly. All my training now, with revolvers, is DA. Remember the slogan, you fight as you're trained. In a sudden, tense situation, I don't want to find myself automatically cocking the hammer. I'm going to shoot or not, but either way it isn't necessary for my finger to be pressing on a hair trigger.

Good points made about the risk of holding a cocked revolver after the situation is resolved.

A question for those who advocate no warning...in the scenario I posed, the intruder is kneeling with his back to me. Would you shoot him in the back? Or, would you command him to stop, lay down, etc? Unless the bad guy was engaged in harming a member of my family, or moving toward a family member, I feel certain that I couldn't shoot anyone in the back without warning. (Not criticizing, asking for opinions.) If he was, however, I wouldn't hesitate...and no warning.

If someone has managed to break into my home at night while me or my loved ones are home I automaticly percieve that as a threat on my life.....hense the "castle doctrine".

These situations are all hypothetical and extremely unlikely to happen . None of will react the same , however my greatest fear is :
"friendly fire"
There fore I have my bright white light to give me a positive ID of the intruder. I really believe it`s better to ere on the side of caution, If I cannot see his face or get an immediate ID, I will hold my fire and give warning first. I may have sacrificed some tactile advantage but better that, than a dreadful mistake I don`t believe I could ever live with.
I am only referring to a home invasion here. Away from home will totally depend on the circumstances.

Two ways:
1. The BG survives.
2. You fail to eliminate all the witnesses.

It only matters if there is an allegation of firing unintentionally or if the BG ceases hostilities before one has to shoot, and is held at gunpoint. Then, uncocking under massive adrenalin dump is a fumbly operation, and an unintentional discharge is more likely.

This is more and more becoming my main CCW piece. I clipped two coils off of a standard weight S&W rebound spring, and replaced the Ruger stock weight trigger latch/return spring with this much heavier S&W spring. The trigger pull is heavy but reasonably smooth, and I can still hit what I aim at. There is NO way this DAO trigger is getting pulled accidently, and NO way I could ever be accused of having a hair trigger. It's also a .38 Special only, that I keep loaded with Golden Saber +P's, and I don't feel like I'm giving up any realistic defensive capability by not carrying a DA/SA .357. I don't often carry autoloaders anyway, never really did except for "niche" uses, so I wanted to make a perfect all around carry revolver.

The NYPD used DAO .38 Special revolvers to reduce liability, and now it's doing the same job for me.

Absolutely not. Back out, batten down the hatches, call the police. Do it quickly and quietly. Only if he becomes an immediate and imminent threat do you shoot him. Don't give him an opportunity to become a threat, if possible.

__________________
NRA Patron
MSSA Life Member

We don't have castle doctrine in PA, I hope that changes at some point. I have to wait to be attacked in my own home before I can shoot, I guess.....I won't get into CC laws because I would have to write a book to cover all of those.....it's a LOT more cut and dried as far as Home Defense. If someone's in your home, you don't know them and you didn't invite them there, it's pretty clear they're a threat.

In a castle doctrine state, you can give that clown a back full of 00 Buck and be legally fine......it wouldn't even matter if he was running for the door or climbing out the window, if he's in your home, fire away! Without castle doctrine there's a LOT more involved.....if a guy is carrying your TV set out the door and you pop him with a couple .357's, you could be in trouble if it's found he wasn't a "threat".....there have been numerous cases where intruders have been shot by homeowners, survived and then won in civil court. Or the homeowners were charged with manslaughter, like the case where a woman shot her stalker ex-boyfriend who broke into her house, the creep survived and was charged with attempted homicide because he "was just there to talk"

I think TX has even more generous laws applying to trespassers on your property. I'll bet there's a lot less trespassing going on in TX......

And a question in return, dear sir . . .

Where's his partner? In yet another room? While the guy you have the drop on is loudly pleading with you in the dark, what do you think his partner is doing as he creeps quietly towards you from the other room? Will HE give you the same chance? Maybe there are THREE GUYS!!!

The BGs already have the element of surprise anyway. They were probably already in your house, and in a high state of awareness and alert, long before you awoke and quit snoring.

They've been listening to the life sounds of your slumbering house and now that symphony has stopped and they hear the squeek of your bed and the soft footsteps as you get your act together. You'll probably be dead shortly after trying to leave your bedroom if they choose to stay and not flee first.

IF you get the jump on one of them, in the dark of course, who is to say that you thought he had his back to you. You just saw a kneeling form . . . probably a form who was kneeling and possibly taking aim at you. In immediate and mortal fear of your life you took a shot to protect your loved ones . . .

At the blast you are startled to hear another person crashing towards a door or window in another room . . . getting the heck out of Dodge probably . . . but be ready to fire in case he bursts into the room you are in to help his partner.

When the lights come on later, it is discovered that the BG was kneeling with his back to you, but you couldn't have known that for sure without giving up your element of surprise and your position.

Hire a good lawyer and let him do all the talking for you. The cops will probably thank you on the side for putting an habitual offender away for good. In any event, you and your family gets to live to see another day.

THEN AGAIN . . . this is a crazy thread. None of us know what we'll do until we face a bad situation. Sheep . . . or momma Grizzly? Only the situation will show you what you are.

We will know when you slip and fall and your cocked revolver discharges, hurting or damaging something, or someone you did not intend to shoot, and you tell us, "oops."

It's a safety thing, and safety makes a difference whether or not anyone else knows.

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Retired Police, Life NRA

There are admittedly lots of "what ifs" and variables...and as I sit here safe and secure, with no bad guys in my home (other than the biscuit stealing mutt at my feet) it is easy to say what I might do or not do. At this moment, I really don't think I could shoot someone in the back, without any other provocation, and with no warning...but that is now. In the moment, and with other variables then that I don't know now, I can't say for sure what I would do.

It's pointless to do these "what if" scenarios for self defense. A good point was made above, both in HD and concealed carry, is that you will be forced to play defense, because the bad guys already know what they're about to do and they're alert and aware, no doubt with the help of some kind of narcotic.

You won't know until the adrenaline is surging and your mind is racing, the thought that you will possibly have to kill a human being before he kills you......

Anyone who's been in a gunfight knows these feelings, when things seem to move in slow motion, fine motor skills break down, the emotions of raw fear mixed with intense anger, the strong urge to kill.....it's animal instinct. The "fight or flight" response.

I'm not saying I think everyone should run out and get a DAO revolver, I'm just saying it's a great choice for HD and CC if you happen to have one or are buying another revolver anyway........ or even looking to de-spur and file the SA notch off the hammer of a reliable shooter grade revolver to use as a CC gun. Onceyou start training with it, you won't miss the Single Action function at all. Save the SA for casual plinking.

The odds of you having to take a shot in single action at 50-100 yards in a self-defense scenario are beyond remote......even if you are dead-set in being prepared for this possibility, you can train yourself to learn the point where the hammer "stages" on your DAO revolver. It's not recommended to "stage" a S&W or Colt, but I do it all the time with my Ruger DAO, there's a convenient spot in the trigger pull where the hammer spring stages,right before the break, and I can feel it. I can make shots almost like a single action shot just by learning the feel of my trigger in DA.....for the miniscule possibility I might ever have to shoot in self defense beyond my "comfort zone" of 25 yards or so.

This certainly has been an interesting discussion. There have also been a few scenerio's proposed that basically are Movie Fantasies.

I think that it's pretty safe to say that engaging an agressor at long range is pretty damned unlikely for a civilian unless you're Bill Gates or Donald Trump. The longest sight line in my house is about 25 feet, I expect that any encounter with a Home Invader will be at 15 feet or less. It's one reason why I've put up my shotgun and now rely on a handgun, there just isn't enough room to swing a long gun and they are not a good option in close quarters.

There have also been a couple of comments about Castle Doctrine permitting you to shoot a burglar in the back. Maybe you can do that in Texas but I suspect that in any other state you'll be facing charges. Fact is that Castle Doctrine only removes your Duty to Retreat, you will still have to be able to demonstrate that the shooting was actually Justified. Meaning, there has to be some level of Emminant Threat. Shooting someone in flight pretty much removes any possibility of Emminant Threat unless you can demonstrate they were shooting while fleeing.

So, lets suppose you've caught a burglar in the act, what should you do.

IMO the first thing you should do is put something between yourself and that burglar so he cannot charge you directly. Quite simply, you know the layout of your home and the furniture, use that to gain a Tactical Advantage.

Second, you'll need to adapt your actions by taking into account your choice of weapon and it's trigger. If it's a 1911 type, the safety should be off and your trigger finger should be off the trigger alongside the frame. If your using a striker fired pistol, the same holds true as it would with any long gun. IMO this is one area where a DA trigger has a slight advantage, with a long and heavy trigger I do not see any problem with having your finger on the trigger. Quite simply, a double action trigger allows you to only have to use one single motion to fire in response to a sudden threat.

Third, I've found that compact florescent light bulbs last much much longer if you don't ever turn them off. In addition they don't consume a lot of electricity. I have a couple of lamps in my living room that have only been turned off to change the bulbs, last time was 3 years ago. Those lamps not only light the living room but also the kitchen and the hall leading to the bedrooms. Point is, leave a couple of lights on, it doesn't cost much and may discourage a middle of the night break in. In addition they either give you needed light or alert you to someone turning them off, in which case you'll really have the tactical advantage because you won't trip over that ottoman.

As for the shoot/no shoot decision, that is situational and you'll have to make that decision on the spot. Just remember that Castle Doctrine or not, there will be costs involved in firing your gun. At the least your gun will be taken as evidence and if you get it back it will take years. In addition it's almost a sure bet that you'll be paying for a Lawyer to represent your interests and at 500 bucks an hour that adds up fast. Quite simply, if I ever confronted a burglar I'd be quite pleased if he went screaming into the night. Afterwards I'd spend a bit of money on reinforcing my entry points because it would be far less expensive than shooting him.

Our firearms trainer would get irrate if he caught us cocking our DA revolvers. I would not cock one for any reason except shooting paper. Thats why the DA is so safe for home protection. Just me talking.

I wouldn't say it's "pointless," per se, but you can easily get to a point of diminishing returns by focusing on minute details that may not have any significant impact on the overall situation. It's good to come up with likely scenarios and work out a basic response plan, but I think you end up doing yourself more harm than good when you start adding more and more details to your scenario, then formulating specific responses for each detail. In a high-stress situation this method of preparation could easily lead to vapor-lock-of-the-brain if you encounter something that didn't match your training scenarios exactly, possibly resulting in a less-than-acceptable resolution.

IMO, keeping things as simple as possible, while retaining some flexibility for unforeseen situations, is always a good idea when working out a self-defense plan.

I think it was Louis Awerbuck who said that in terms of distance most gunfights will happen at the width of a car, the length of a car, and the length of a room. I think it helps put things in perspective regarding self-defense training. This is why nearly all of my self-defense practice is done inside 15 feet.

Think "self defense for civilians" not police or military.......your brain and your gut are your first most powerful weapons. We have an uncanny ability to sense when we are in real danger, or when something is just not right.

When interviewed later, the vast majority of civilians who shot intruders or attackers recall the events typical of an "adrenaline haze" and tunnel vision, so it's not like you're gonna have time to formulate a game plan. It will be a series of split second reactions to what's going on.

I have to get myself out of the "military tactical" mindset and back to civilian self defense......as in, the key being "defense" not "offense". Shooting at people who are 50 yards away with a revolver in single action is not normal for self defense.

A couple of comments.

If you live alone or with your wife only and you sleep in the same room, you should never leave your bedroom. Get out your weapon and station yourself so you can aim it at the bedroom door, with something between you and the door if possible.

Have the wife call 911 on your cell and wait it out.

If you have a house full of family, you have a very different situation. You are duty bound to protect them which means that you may have to leave your room to see that they are safe.


But leaving your room is a very high risk move. More than high risk, it borders on suicide.

For instance, coming out of our bedroom there is a guest bath immediately to the left of our door. So close that I would be within easy arm's reach of anyone hiding in that bathroom.

Straight across the hall from the bedroom door is my den. It would be easy for a BG to hide in the den and wait for me to turn the corner to go down the hall to the living room and then jump me from behind.

Actually it would be very likely if there were two BG's.

Going down the hall I would have to pass the utility room.

Entering the living room area, I would pass through a door that is not in a square wall. In other words, as I passed the door, on my right would be an area that would be BEHIND my right side...so another place where a BG could hit me from behind.

I go through all of this to make the point that if each of you would make this mental trip out of your room in the dark of the night with an unknown or maybe two or more unknowns, you would get a picture of how dangerous this really is.

Wait in your room for him/them to make their move unless you hear someone screaming or have reason to believe that another person is in danger.

Thankfully ours are all grown and gone and I don't have to be a hero.

If the BG decides to come to your bedroom, everything is cut and dried. There is no question that you are in danger for your life and no way any DA can accuse you of being a trigger happy nut case.

A BG coming through your bedroom door is another story. First, he is coming toward you so there is no question about him attempting to escape. Second, he has made it plain that you are going to come to harm. Don't say a word or make a sound. Pull the trigger.

One more comment.

Our burglar alarm's master panel is next to the back door, a common mistake. If the alarm goes off, I have to go down the hall to the utility room to see which door or window is sending the signal and to turn it off.

Within the next few months, I plan to install an updated system and the master panel will be in the master bedroom so that I can tell which door or window is sending the signal.

We will use a remote to set the alarm as we exit.

I know, I can wait for the phone to ring and the monitor to tell me which door or window and I will in the future.

But I admit that in the past, I have got up and without thinking walked down the hall and turned it off. Of course, I was armed, but doing so was stupid.

But as the guy says, we learn by our stupid mistakes.....if we live through them.

I fully concur with the comments on training within reasonable distances. I see far too many folks firing at targets 25-yd down-range and shake my head and wonder where these folks are gonna be in a self-defense situation at that distance....they must live in a larger home than I ever have.

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GA Carry member
Vietnam Vet

This thread started on the subject of legal jeopardy relative to a cocked weapon.

Shooting at anyone 25 ft. or more away, other than inside your house or place of business will expose you to a great deal more legal jeopardy.

The prosecutor and/or plaintiff's attorney likely will contend that the BG posed little if any threat at that distance and that you could have evaded him by retreat or some other means.

The question might well be raised "How did you know he was a bad guy?" "He was just another ordinary guy like you who was nervous about your intentions."

Difficult questions.

Not sure where you live but in MI (and other states) we are now covered by the Castle Doctrine. Theorectically speaking, isn't this supposed to address and apply to "the obligation to retreat", et. al?

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MotorCityGun