i just recently got the m&p 40 c ,which i really like.its been a long time since shooting with a handgun of any kind.so for me its like starting from scratch and im sure im doing a bunch of stuff wrong but at least i am on paper and can get a half decent group albeit a bit low on the target from the bulls eye.but for now at least its on the target . my question is whats a good distance to start from?right now im at 10- 12 yards.dont laugh im trying.

I think that's fine. To be honest I spend a lot of time at 5-7 yards and try to be proficient from there, then I'll back up to 10 yards. I figure if something happens and I'm beyond that I need to be looking for cover or trying to get away.

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"I'm your huckleberry."

One should be accurate in shooting drills from 15 yards to 25 yards.
Starting with drills from 3 yards to 15 yards.

Once you've mastered these ranges, then move out to 50 yards.

Past 50 yards, you should have a better chance to turn and run for a rifle or shotgun or simply run away.

I learned combat shooting on the old NRA 1500 in the begining of the 1970s

Rule 303

I do almost all of my shooting inside 15 feet, and most of that is inside 6-8 feet, but my focus is on self-defense shooting so I keep the distances close. I do occasionally stretch the distance a bit, say out to 10 yards. Every once in a while I'll shoot as far as 25 yards, but it's been a while since I've done that.

Self-Defense training- I keep it from 0-10 yards.

For fun, I shoot out to 200 yards, depending on the gun I'm using. I can pepper a silhouette at 100 yard with a 4" Model 10.

If it's CC and gunfighting you're practicing for, then anywhere from zero to 15 yards, with and without sights, will be a good start and use silhouette type targets, not bullseyes.

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Centennial Every Day

Here is a thread about defensive practice group size, but it also gets into practice distances:
Acceptable grouping size for Self Defense

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Marty 4513TSW 13-1 642 60-10

I start at 4 yards, then 7, 15, and finally 25. Sometimes I mix it up.

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"... shall not be infringed."

Normally, I like to practice my speed skills at 30 feet, it's the longest distance that I'd expect to be needed in a Defense situation but far enough away to see if I'm throwing too many flyers. The goal for me isn't extreme accuracy, it's maintaining the ability to put followups on target rapidly. Preferred target is a 4 x 7 inch shoot-n-c sticker and if I can keep every shot on the sticker at a 1/2 second split I'm satisfied. When using a large paper target I'll put up two stickers and work on transitions between the two.

IMO, when working at distances any closer, ALL of the shooting should be transition drills. There really isn't much challenge to getting a center hit at 10 or 15 feet, however the greater angular difference increases the challenge for transition shooting. However, you do have to pay attention to where your rounds will impact when doing these kinds of drills, indoor ranges get kind of upset when you start shooting the walls, floors, and ceilings.

My serious practice is done 7-10 yards. I will at times shoot at 15 and 25 but this is just for fun. All of this is using silhouette type targets.

I have a 686 with an 8 3/8 inch barrel that I shoot a lot at 50 yards but this is a hunting gun not intended for self defense unless nothing else is available at the time.

Shooting a 40c at a bullseye target and trying for group size?

Sorry, I didn't catch your purpose in buying this gun. If you want it for defense use, I disagree with almost everything you're doing (at least you ARE shooting it).

I start people out with a plain target and put a paper plate on it no further than 5 yds. The whole paper plate is the "bullseye" for defensive shooting. By picking a small target and probably slowly squeezing off a shot, trying to put them all in the same hole, you are practicing rotten technique for defensive shooting.

At first, the most important thing is to learn how to hold the gun correctly (most don't) and to bring the gun up with the sights aligned, then smoothly pull the trigger straight back.
Drop the arms, then repeat. The important thing is to hit that paper plate first time, every time, not stand there and try to shoot a little group.
YouTube - How to shoot a pistol.

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Science plus Art

Most gunfights take place in feet not yards and some are more in inches! That said you should practice at mostly 0-15yards with occasionally practiceing at 15-35 yards. You might have to make or take a long shot one day so it's best that you know that.
I normally use a blank target (Q target) and if I can hold a 8 inch pattern in flat out rapid fire I'm happy! If I'm going for precession I want a 2-3 inch group.
Also once you get sighted fire down, start practiceing unsighted or point shooting. Go slow at first, point you pistol at the target and squeeze, then adjust your POI with your body. Remember your not going to always have the luxury of useing your sights in a fight, so possibly the addition of a Crimson Trace grip might be on your wish list. And if you can find a police officer have him teach you the "Police protected position" an old flatfoot taught me this trick and I am eternally thankful to him for teaching me it! Dale

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

I practice with my self-defense revolvers from 3 yards to 25, but the vast majority of my shooting is done at around 10 yards.

For self defense handgun practice: between pretty darn close and 30 ft. For fun target practice I'll go 25 or so yards with handguns and up to 275 yards long gun.

thanks for the advise,never thought about using the paper plate for a target which makes perfectly good sense.im thinking i may need to invest in a instructor ,im not much on patience so this is getting frustrating real fast.

First, I was once told that in Defensive shooting it's not very important to shoot a tiny group, what is important is to get good hits on target as rapidly as possible. As the instructor put it, it's likely that spreading hour hits to both lungs and the torso will probably crash your opponents blood pressure faster than 5 hits to the heart. Quite simply, there may be a distinct medical advantage to shooting a 6 inch group instead of a 2 inch group. Just something to consider, what you regard as poor shooting may not be as poor as you think.

That said, there is a distinct advantage in being able to accurately place your shots and we all want to take home targets that are "bragworthy".

The smartest thing that I've done to improve my handgun skills was to purchase a revolver. It took 2 solid months of weekly live fire practice to master using a DA trigger properly but the result was that I had gained a lot in trigger skills. That cut my group sizes with a semi auto in half and I also made big gains in firing rate while maintaining acceptable accuracy. Today I own more revolvers than I do semi's and normally spend about 2/3 of my range time shooting revolvers and I've become rather good with them.

More recently I've started spending time shooting at longer ranges from a benchrest. It started as a matter of curiousity about seeing just how accurate some of my revolvers can be. What I have found is that benchrest shooting is not nearly as easy as it looks. Once you get out to 25 yards and beyond and are shooting for precision, any flaw in your technique is revealed and magnified by flyers. If you've developed a habit of jerking your trigger, you'll see the results as a glaring example of what not to do. If you've started flinching, you'll find that out quickly because the rest will provide a physical barrier to that flinch. Quite simply, it's a great way to isolate on certain specific skills and practice your technique in those skills. It will also train you to become immune to the blasts from other shooters using the range, if you have a "startle reaction" with a loaded and cocked revolver in single action you will soon learn to ignore those blasts from your neighbors. Finally, I find it a very relaxing exercise that requires total focus, it's you, the gun, the sight, and that bullseye so far downrange that you may not even be able to see it. BTW, when I do this I rest my hands on a sandbag, on most revolvers resting the barrel will just trash groupings and by resting your hands you can still practice the same recoil management skills as used when shooting offhand.

I shoot my Ruger LCR at 5-10 yards. As a backup I don't see a need for anything more than that for proficiency, and that is stretching it. 1911's up to 50 yards and Ruger Mark III for long distance fun. You've got to practice practice practice. Take an NRA Class and become a member at your local gun club.

For defensive handgun practice you should be practicing anywhere from 0 to 15 yards. Once you are proficient at the 0 to 15 yard line start backing it up until you get to the 25 yard plus range. Most of my shooting is at the 15 yard line with at least a few slugs thrown down range at the 25 yard line (Max distance at the indoor range). At the 0 to 5 yard line I ALWAYS practice point shooting as I figure I'm not going to have much time to take aim at that close of a distance. I always shoot my range session with my carry ammo or near duplicate handloads. No sense in learning to ride a bucking horse by training on a pack mule. For hunting with a handgun (Scoped SBH) I practice at my farm out to 100 yards. I won't go much past the 100 yard line even with a scoped handgun while hunting. For rifle hunting I'll back the target out to 600 yards depending on the rifle, scope and load i'm shooting. One of the guys that works for me regularly shoots open sight handguns 150 to 200 yards, and gets more hits than misses, but he is the exception to the rule. Then again he is one of those oddball people that can pick up a rock and knock a duck out of the air. I've seen him do it, twice.

Class III

For 40 years, my idea of self-defense has been strictly defense of myself and those with me at normal mugger ranges or at the distance equal to the longest shot I will have against an intruder in the house. I do not carry in defense of the free world - I carry in self-defense.

For that reason, my targets are 80% within the range of reach-out-and-touch-someone to 7 yards. The remaining 20% are shot and ranges out to 30 yards. I figure anything beyond that range to warrant an AR or belt-fed.

I go from 3 to 7 yards and sometimes out to 10 yards. I look at the inside of our house and see what distance most firing would be at. Outdoors, it will not be over 10 yards for me. If it's gonna be at 25 yards or more, I want a rifle.....

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GA Carry member
Vietnam Vet

There's some good advice above, some not that great. Here are some very basic tips: There is no magic distance or group size at which you should practice or seek to achieve. Two or three good hits in 2 seconds is better than two or three perfect hits in 4 seconds.

Recently, my younger son took his Texas CHL renewal class from me. Since the time limits are generous, the ranges are short and he is a skilled shooter, he basically shot a ragged one-hole group, with maybe 2 or 3 shots outside the 47 others. He was beaming when he finished, and I said, "Son, that sucks." "Why, Dad?" he asked. "Because, son, you obviously shot too damn slow." I'd rather see three separate holes bleeding in 1.5 seconds than one tiny 3-shot group in one hole, bleeding in 3 seconds.

Statistics (I know, lies, damn lies and statistics) tell us that most gunfights happen at zero to 3 yards, in 2.3 seconds or so, and that almost all take place in seven yards or less. I'd rather take on all contingencies, and be sure I could hit a head shot at 15 yards, and several hits to the torso in 2 seconds or less at seven yards.

To me, the very most important practice factors for self-defense shooting are these: 1) Focus; do not just plink or shoot groups, but rather practice as though the targets would shoot back, and 2)Practice variety, including shooting while moving, 2,3 and 4 shot multiples, and multiple targets. Do not get in a rut.

Reality is diverse, and while we can train for multiple scenarios, we can't predict that with which we will presented when we actually have to shoot for blood. I practice at ranges from contact to about 50 yards, with emphasis on ranges from 3 yards to 10, but I want to be able to shoot much farther accurately, given enough time.

thanks for the advise fellows,i was going about some things all wrong for sure. going to try some of the advise out and see how my SELF DEFENSE shooting goes then.i looked at it from the view point of like any other gun you shoot-try to get as close to the bulls eye as possible .

Just to add a different situation....you have a bad guy coming at you armed with a pistol, knife whatever, you take him out at about the traditional 7 yards or less...good, what you practice all the time. Well, low and behold here come two of his buddies, armed with a rifle and a shotgun....25 to 50 yards...and you with no cover or retreat...are you going to wait till they get into your 7 yard comfort zone? Your are dead or wounded at best. Practice at longer yardages...get comfortable with it...sure your nice 7 yard groups will suffer but they will get better and you will learn a lot...and your new 7 yard shots will amaze you.

I've seen alot of guys burn thru 100 rounds of 9mm or .40 caliber in 15 minutes and exit with a target that looks like it was hit with buck shot.

I would throw out that alot of people would do well to shoot a couple hundred rounds of .22 caliber each trip to the range.

I have seen much improvement in accuracy across the board over time, and I give all the credit to my Model 17.

Nothing like trying to master that S+W trigger in DA and not worry about the ammo bill.

While I don't want to discourage occasional long-range practice, we can "what if" ourselves into mind-numbing confusion. Regarding the above situation:

Just as one doesn't bring a knife to a gunfight, one doesn't bring a handgun to a gunfight, either.

I carry a five-round snubbie, so trying to win a fight against two guys with longarms at range isn't in the cards. I'll be exercising my "run like hell" skills, not my marksmanship skills. Most folks can't hit a rapidly-moving target, and rapidly moving I will certainly be.

This 37, which is now as pretty as it is tight, was inspected, cleaned and lubed. It is the first J frame I had ever shot. My other revolver that I have kept is a K frame 357 4". I shoot the K frame anywhere from 7 to 25, and before hunting season I will shoot a few out to about 40 yards or so.
I just use discarded paper plates and mark a somewhat centered bullseye. The paper plate in the picture is from that 37 at 10 yards. The first shot was SA and hit pretty much in the center. The other 4 were DA fired as quickly as I could get it back down on the target. To me this is just fine for SD purposes. I was using 158 gr. standard pressure LRN .38's. It was the first 5 shots I made with the gun and with practice the groups have improved greatly. It made me feel good to do that well right off the bat. For SD I say 7 to 10 yards is good and work on not sighting, it is easier than you might think with a little practice. Hope this helps. My wife won't let me use a new plate, she's quite frugal. I hope that is not a bad thing.
Peace,
gordon

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better have that checked

i appreciate what you are saying. I only meant that those kind of situations do arise and if you are not prepared you are in a world of hurt. If you are at the range and are going to bust caps, why not extend yourself and practice for another situation. I see guys at the range that feel comfortable within their "comfort range"...and they do not want to go beyond that because they may look bad to their buddies. And, like I said, you can't bug out because you do not have cover. Just an in you mind set practice thing. If you get too comfortable someone or something will come along and make you very ,very uncomfortable.

That is exactly what will happen if you are in battle and shoot at someone.

It is also what you would expect if you shoot a cop.

I can't remember hearing of that situation in ordinary citizen life and I can't imagine anyone on this blog shooting at cops.

I typed "caps" not "cops". What the heck is this about shooting cops? I'm done with this.

7-10 yards. Paper plates, 8-inch iron knock-downs in a row, half-size iron silhouette knock-downs scattered. Over and over.

Am I good? Mmm - gettin' better.

I like following the same thing Texas requires for the CHL test; 20 rounds at 3 yards, 20 at 7 yards and 10 at 15 yards. I follow this ratio with both my snubbie .38 and 9mm Sigma. Seems to give me a good mix while trying to get these old eyes to focus at different ranges.

This thread took a turn for the wierd on page 3......

25 yards
50 feet [17 1/2 feet]
3 to 10 yards
According to police records must shootings are dun at
3 to 10 feet.
It all depends on weather you shoot for recreation or self-defence.

I don't think it's been mentioned here... Be sure to practice one hand shooting with either hand. It's real easy to want to shoot with your "good" hand and not your other. Doesn't have anything to do with distance but thought I would add that into the discussion.

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Centennial Every Day

I’m not offering anything new here – just summing up a few ideas:
1. My Ohio CCW Course requires proof of competency at 21 feet. So that is my primary practice range. I also shoot at varying distances out to 50 yards, and as close as 1 foot.
2. 90% of my shooting at 21 feet are double-taps, spot shooting. The same holds true for distances under 21 feet; 2 yards, 4 yards, etc...
3. At 1 foot, 3 to 5 rounds as soon as I clear my holster, from the hip, as fast as I can pull the trigger.
4. While I have been lax practicing on the move, shooting while walking at a diagonal to or away from multiple targets really messes with your mind. Try it …
5. Load your SD/HD weapons with quality ammo designed specifically for SD/HD, not hunting. I carry what my local Sheriff’s Department carries – Gold Dot +P.
6. Practice with your SD/HD rounds also, not just the WWB from Wally World.
7. Practice, practice, practice . . .

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Vietnam Vet

Most incidents occur within 5-10 yds. I practice at 3-5 yds, then move back to 5-7, increase the distance to 10 then 15. I repeat for each gun I have with me and the last magazine or cylinder is moving toward the target. I also make it a point to double tap from the holstered position this way i reinforce muscle memory. It is what I feel works for me. Go with what is comfortable for you.

went with a paper plate and just focused on getting the shots on the plate. also slowed way down between shots .still caught myself pulling the trigger at times which dropped the barrel down and resulted in a way low hit.but over all i could see some improvement.

Attached Images

target practice 001.jpg (70.3 KB, 29 views)

Human anatomy is funny. Well at least the spelling and pronunciation of anatomical features are curious. Imagine the center of a Zombie’s chest. The Sternum (breast bone) lies right down the midline. At the bottom of the sternum is the Ziphoid process (also spelt Xiphoid).
The Ziphoid Process would be about Center Mass of the torso. That is your Spot Shooting target.
Based on the attached picture of your paper plate, being a few inches off of exact center is not necessarily a bad thing. Your shots would have hit the Heart, Lungs, Spinal Column, Spleen, Liver, Aorta, Vena Cava, Trachea, Esophagus, etc., etc... Many of your shots were Kill Shots ! Would the Zombie have fallen immediately, dead to the ground ? I don’t know; but you certainly would have gotten his attention.

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Vietnam Vet

Ya, but I thought the only way to kill a Zombie was a head shot?

At least according to "Resident Evil" LOL!

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Mat - M&P 40c & 40 Shield

lmao ... maybe a solid double-tap to the chest, severing the aorta and the vena cava, just "po" Zombie's. I dunno for sure.

Devil's Playground - Death Valley ?

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Vietnam Vet

+1 to that.

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Always Stay Strong!

For what its worth. I start at arms length and work out to 7 yards point shooting..2 rounds as fast as I can. I will practice out to 15 yards for self defence purposes but not as much as the close in ranges. I read a statistic once that said the majority of self defence shootings occur at ranges under 7 yards and actually as close as just beyond arms length.

I pratice from 3 yards to 15 yards for social purposes.
I shoot from 3 yards to 100 yards for fun and pratice.

One should concentrate on the "real life" distances, but be
proficient out to 50 yards.

Rule 303

50 yds is half a football field...Are you kidding me? I don't have ammo to waste.....

Two Cents is all your gonna get here. Practical training, notice I said practical not "Tactical"!!
Arms distance to 7yds I practice one getting off the "X", and point shooting from a modified crouch. At arms distance the last thing you want to do is go into a full twohand hold on your weapon(You just gave Mr. BG something to hold onto), and lost precious seconds getting shots off. Do this strong and weak handed. If your holster is properly postitioned you should be able toget to it with either hand(3:30 to 4:00 right handed, 8:30 to 8:00 left handed). At seven yards you can go to a twohanded hold aimed or point shooting(Remember to keep moving). Once you get back to 10 to 15yds sighted fire should be the norm, not saying point shooting can be done at those ranges, but it takes lots and lots of practice!!! Now from there practice at 25yds, standing, kneeling, or even prone. Use a baracade if possible, one it gives you a steady platform, second it gives you some cover from possible incoming fire.
Now if you've got the range find out where your gun hits at 50yds, those of us who've shot the old PPC course know what I'm talking about. You'll never be able to decide what type of encounter you'll be envolved in. Those of us who've had to practice the Tueller drill can tell you, it doesn't matter if Mr. BG has a knife, gun, or stick, from 21ft aka 7yds, he'll usually be on you before you break leather, thats the reason for getting off the "X", don't get caught with "Deer in the headlights look". If you've got a partner, get yourself a training gun, airsoft, watergun roughly the same as your carry gun, and practice this.

Next, dryfiring is your friend, use him every chance you get. Start slow, put a penny right behind the front sight, and practice squeezing the trigger(works best with revolvers, but can be done with semi-auto's) slowly till you can do it without the penny moving or falling off, and build up speed from there. Got a full length mirror, Please make sure your gun is unloaded, and practice your draw, from point shooting to aimed fire. When doing the point shooting look where the muzzle is pointing, it should be in straight alignment with your forearm pointing at the target. When doing aimed fire, practice looking under your weapon, or over, thats where the vital areas are. If you continue to point at your weapon, you'll probably hit Mr.BG's gun or hands.

If this is a self defense gun, start right out at 1 yard. I know that is going to sound a little weird, but that is one of the first drills we learned in our class when I started work at the sheriff's department. Look up strike and step drill. From there, I would go to 3, 7, and then 15 yards. Remember that most gunfights happen up close, brutally close. It doesn't hurt though to later on move back to 25 yards, but those up close drills are very important.

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Vaya con Dios

David, practice at 1 yard may sound strange but you are right. I learned on the old PPC and as I recall the closest we ever came to the target was 3 yards. After listening to others I amended my training from the 3 to 7 yard line (sometimes out to 10) to touching distance to the target. That was a real surprise, to pull the trigger at a distance measured in inches instead of feet. Initially it's very uncomfortable, especially when you can't assume any of the traditional stances. It becomes draw, point and pull. Real fast, real basic, real close.

Correct, point shooting is something that should be practiced by anyone who CCW's not just police, because thats probably the distance its going to happen at. What we used to call "Bad Breath Distance". Just remember where that off hand is!!!

I just did the New Mexico concealed carry class, and you qualify at 3 yards and 7 yards. Very easy to obtain good groups at 21 feet. Infact seeing how I am 6'2" 3 yards became 2 yards! It was like i was touching the target!

During the class, the instructors stated the FBI has found that the average attack is with in 3 feet, i.e. someone hiding in the bushes type thing. So being able to fire that close, one handed or maybe on a knee is a good thing to practice as well.

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686-4 442-1

3 ft. is beyond “scary” close for an attack / gun battle . . . I just wet myself !

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Vietnam Vet