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  #1  
Old 08-07-2011, 02:05 PM
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Default What to do if someone pulls a gun on you and wants to take you to a second location?

Many times the victim feels that if he or she just cooperates he will make it out alive. Generally they are right but the exception comes when they want to take you from the scene to a new location. What are your chances of surviving? According to ex-Lietenant Bittenbinder of the Chicago Police dept. you are better off running form the scene than cooperating. The chances of being raped and/or killed if you are a woman is increased. With both men in women the chances of death are also increased. Running from a person with a gun is safer than being taken from the scene to a new location. The chances of being hit by bullet fired at you are a lot less than be a taken to a new scene. I think the percentage of being hit by a bullet and killed is about 3% which are better the odds of being taken to a new location. All this being said there are no guarantees on anything here but you chances of survival are improved by running from the scene.
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:13 PM
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Not to be trite, but if someone pulls a gun, & wants to take me someplace else, we will find out which of us is the better "gunfighter".
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:40 PM
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Fighting back or fleeing are always the best options. Anyone who meekly surrenders and allows their captor to take them to another location has an extremely high probability of being killed by their captor as usually that is the reason for taking the person to a different/remote location in the first place.

With the exception of hostages taken during bank robberies the chances are very near 100%, if you allow yourself to be taken away from the original scene, that you will eventually be killed by the perpetrator.
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:46 PM
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I've told my kids, since they were old enough to understand, that if someone pulls a gun on you and tells you to get into a vehicle, to run. If they remember, its best to run toward the back of the vehicle and keep going, that way the guy would have to turn around.

I told them if you run, he probably won't shoot. If he shoots, he'll probably miss. And if he hits you, you probably won't die. But if you get in the vehicle, I'll never see you again.

Now, if its me in that situation I'm "holding court in the street".
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:49 PM
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Crime scene #2 is how law enforcement describes this scenario. NEVER allow yourself to be taken to another location. Far better to flee or fight it out then be taken somewhere else where in all likely hood you will be assaulted or worse. Chances are if you flee and the BG shoots he will not hit you and if he does you will probably survive. At crime scene #2 your odds go way down as they are in control of everything and you are literally at their mercy...something these ***'s simply don't have.
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Old 08-07-2011, 06:59 PM
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Pardon the CAPS, in advance of my using them herein...

ABSOLUTELY NO! I WILL NEVER ALLOW MYSELF TO BE TAKEN TO ANOTHER LOCATION. PERIOD!

I HAVE IMPARTED THE SAME PHILOSOPHY TO MY LOVED ONES AND FRIENDS. NEVER SHOULD THEY COOPERATE IN ANY WAY. THAT'S TO THE EXTENT THAT SHOULD ANYONE HOP INTO THEIR VEHICLE, POINT A GUN TO THEIR HEAD, AND SAY DRIVE. THEY WILL, I SURELY HOPE, FOLLOW MY ADVICE AND THROW THE KEYS OUT THE WINDOW TO BE FOLLOWED BY THEMSELVES OUT THE DOOR. SHOULD EXIGENT CIRCUMSTANCES SOMEHOW PRECLUDE THE FOREGOING, THEY ARE TO HIT A FIXED OBJECT IN A TIMELY MANNER. INSOFAR AS IS PRACTICABLE, SAID FIXED OBJECT SHOULD BE IN A WELL-TRAVELED/POPULATED AREA. IF POSSIBLE, NEAR A POLICE OR FIRE STATION.

YES, I HAVE CONSIDERED AND DISCUSSED THIS.

Sorry for the CAPS.

Be safe.
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:00 PM
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Probley the worst example of this was officers campbell and hettinger from the book, "The onion field".

The Onion Field - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:08 PM
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A good argument for concealed carry. If you are carrying and if you are lucky, the only one being transported to a second location will be the perp…to the county morgue.
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:32 PM
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If I'm gonna die, it's going to be on my feet, not on my knees.
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:47 PM
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It happened to me once...two guys pulled up in a van and told me to get in or they'd kill me. I was scared to death but luckily the whole thing was a surprise party set up by my wife.
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoom6zoom View Post
If I'm gonna die, it's going to be on my feet, not on my knees.
AMEN! Oh, and in regards to the person hoping in your vehicle....keep your doors locked and windows up at least half way. I have been approached by people at stop lights who had more alterior motives than mere panhandling...fortunately, it hasn't crossed the line yet....hope it never does. But it has come MIGHTY close!
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Old 08-07-2011, 08:08 PM
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If it's a hostage situation and you are unarmed, then pretend to faint. Then their only choice is to carry you.
This is not recommended in other cases such as a sexual assault, but if they just want a hostage, it should work.

'Course I'd prolly fight anyway, but that's just me.
Jim
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Old 08-07-2011, 08:41 PM
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On this same line, probably the stupidest writing I've ever seen comes from the shows on TV where a perp takes a person hostage and, when confronted by a LEO, tells the officer to drop his gun or he'll shoot the hostage. And the officer does. Now the perp has another hostage and another gun. I figured if I was ever confronted by this situation I'd NEVER give up my gun, that I'd explain to the perp he has 2 choices, surrender and get a public defender or hurt the hostage and I'll execute him right then and there, regardless if he tries to surrender. Bottom line, the perp needs to understand, hostage dies, so do you. Any LEO out there with an opinion on this type of situation?
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Old 08-07-2011, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve in Vermont View Post
On this same line, probably the stupidest writing I've ever seen comes from the shows on TV where a perp takes a person hostage and, when confronted by a LEO, tells the officer to drop his gun or he'll shoot the hostage. And the officer does. Now the perp has another hostage and another gun. I figured if I was ever confronted by this situation I'd NEVER give up my gun, that I'd explain to the perp he has 2 choices, surrender and get a public defender or hurt the hostage and I'll execute him right then and there, regardless if he tries to surrender. Bottom line, the perp needs to understand, hostage dies, so do you. Any LEO out there with an opinion on this type of situation?
Exactly correct. I was trained to NEVER give up my gun under any circumstance. Nor will I wait to be fired upon. The first shot will likely be mine.
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Old 08-07-2011, 09:54 PM
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Many years ago friends of my wife's families son and his friend are at the mall. There are around high school age, just graduated or will soon( I for get its a while ago) Any how the friend has a nice jeep, the replacement CJ what ever it was, open sides, had nice rims. So as they are getting in the jeep some person (I would like to use another name) jumps them pulls a gun, tells them to drive. They all drive out of the mall to some vacant wooded lot. He tells them he just wants the truck and to get out and lay face down in the dirt. Well, they do it, the " person" then shoots them both in the back of the head point blank. The friend dies right there, the friends son some how turned his head and the bullet did the around the skull under the scalp thing, he lives. The "person" drives off. This kid is hurt but manages to go for help, he lives but it was a rough time for him. The cops catch the "person", its the "my baby didnt do nuffin" crowd. We lost track of these folks over the years.

So to me in this situation, never lay down, never go in the back room, freezer ect.

Crash the car into a pole or tree if need be. Find your chance and take it, even if its a small chance. Id rather die trying than take one in the back of the head laying in the dirt.

Lesson learned

Student Is Indicted for Murder In Rockland County Carjacking - NYTimes.com

People v Edward L. Summers :: July, 2005 :: New York Appellate Division, Second Department Decisions :: New York Case Law :: US Case Law :: US Law :: Justia
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Old 08-07-2011, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelgun28 View Post
Many years ago friends of my wife's families son and his friend are at the mall. There are around high school age, just graduated or will soon( I for get its a while ago) Any how the friend has a nice jeep, the replacement CJ what ever it was, open sides, had nice rims. So as they are getting in the jeep some person (I would like to use another name) jumps them pulls a gun, tells them to drive. They all drive out of the mall to some vacant wooded lot. He tells them he just wants the truck and to get out and lay face down in the dirt. Well, they do it, the " person" then shoots them both in the back of the head point blank. The friend dies right there, the friends son some how turned his head and the bullet did the around the skull under the scalp thing, he lives. The "person" drives off. This kid is hurt but manages to go for help, he lives but it was a rough time for him. The cops catch the "person", its the "my baby didnt do nuffin" crowd. We lost track of these folks over the years.

So to me in this situation, never lay down, never go in the back room, freezer ect.

Crash the car into a pole or tree if need be. Find your chance and take it, even if its a small chance. Id rather die trying than take one in the back of the head laying in the dirt.

Lesson learned

Student Is Indicted for Murder In Rockland County Carjacking - NYTimes.com

People v Edward L. Summers :: July, 2005 :: New York Appellate Division, Second Department Decisions :: New York Case Law :: US Case Law :: US Law :: Justia
Hard to believe that was 17 years ago, seems like just yesterday. I remember it well, was a sad event. There used to be a Jeep dealer right across RT59 opposite the mall, I bought a Wrangler from them in 88.
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Old 08-07-2011, 10:50 PM
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Here is a trick you should try, (and practice).

Get a buddy, set out a target. Have the buddy point a pistol at the target. Tell him to shoot when he see's you start to draw. Then draw and shoot. 95% of the time you'll get the shot off before you buddy does. You can increase the odds if you get the buddy talking. If he's talking, you can get the shot off about 99 9/10s % first.

I know you wont believe this, but try it. I use to have officers do this when I was a LE firearms instructor. It was about the time the Onion Field Story came out. We started pushing that you NEVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN.

They always think they can shoot before you can draw. Even with the buddy KNOWING you're gonna draw, if he doesn't shoot until you make the move you can beat him
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Old 08-07-2011, 11:10 PM
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It happened to me once...two guys pulled up in a van and told me to get in or they'd kill me. I was scared to death but luckily the whole thing was a surprise party set up by my wife.
and you sleep with this woman???
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Old 08-07-2011, 11:15 PM
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I think such situations come down simply to control ... who has it and maintains it, and who loses it. In a life threatening scenario, you want to gain/maintain as much control as possible, whether it be physical, strategic, etc. If you do exactly as the BG says (getting in vehicle, etc.) you have zero control ... and that is a certain recipe for disaster as your fate is completely out of your control. Fighting back, running, etc. allows a minimum of control for yourself, and certainly increases the odds of escape/survival.
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Old 08-08-2011, 10:42 AM
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and you sleep with this woman???
I shouldn't...but her girlfriend is so cute.
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Old 08-08-2011, 11:54 AM
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What to do if someone pulls a gun on you and wants to take you to a second location?

will they be serving double cheeseburgers and beer?
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Old 08-08-2011, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vytoland View Post
What to do if someone pulls a gun on you and wants to take you to a second location?

will they be serving double cheeseburgers and beer?
They didnt have beer but they had burgers.

Wendy's Massacre Suspect Pleads Guilty - ABC News
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Old 08-08-2011, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladder13 View Post
Hard to believe that was 17 years ago, seems like just yesterday. I remember it well, was a sad event. There used to be a Jeep dealer right across RT59 opposite the mall, I bought a Wrangler from them in 88.
It surprised me that it was that long ago also. I didnt know until I read the attached links Well the last ten years seem to have flown by.

When that happened (my then soon to be wife) was calling me with bits and pieces that she was getting relayed from her mom. I was convinced that the story was wrong, seemed to strange to be real. Car Jacking, shooting, police chase to the Bronx, well it was true. The story went on after he was caught, that the shooter claimed other people were involved, some guy Dino (wheres Sip) made him do it.
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Old 08-08-2011, 09:06 PM
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I agree with never give up your gun, or go to another location. The only circumstance where I can see you giving up your gun would be, multiple bad guys and your gun runs dry. Then they can have it, but they will have to dig it out of their forehead.This is a good thread and hopefully it will educate some folks.
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Old 08-08-2011, 09:23 PM
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First choice: flee.

Second choice: attack.

Third choice: see first and second choice.
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:10 PM
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In the 1970's when I started out as a patrolman, another officer on the department I was on was taken hostage during a traffic stop. His captor took him and his patrol unit and wound up being pursued by other patrol units. The guy went down a dead end road and was trapped. He killed the officer and himself in the car with shots to the head. That left a big impression. Whenever I rode with another officer I made sure he understood that I didn't want to ever be taken away and I asked him to start shooting if needed to stop it. They other guys always agreed to the same promise from me...I'd rather die resisting than be executed by some monster. As it has already been said, the hostage taker may be bluffing or a lousy shot or be using an unreliable weapon or lousy ball ammo. Plus, EMT's and trauma centers are pretty good these days. I'd rather take my chances with that than a contact shot to the head...
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:19 PM
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I'm not going anywhere, with anybody against my will. Almost INVARIABLY, if somebody wants to take somebody to another location it's because they don't want witnesses, and or they want a lot of time to do something REALLY bad to you.

Try to unlawfully get me to go some place and one or both of us is getting shot, hopefully just you. But I'm willing to chance it 10 times out of 10.
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:36 PM
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"On this same line, probably the stupidest writing I've ever seen comes from the shows on TV where a perp takes a person hostage and, when confronted by a LEO, tells the officer to drop his gun or he'll shoot the hostage. And the officer does. Now the perp has another hostage and another gun. I figured if I was ever confronted by this situation I'd NEVER give up my gun, that I'd explain to the perp he has 2 choices, surrender and get a public defender or hurt the hostage and I'll execute him right then and there, regardless if he tries to surrender. Bottom line, the perp needs to understand, hostage dies, so do you. Any LEO out there with an opinion on this type of situation?"

I went through the POST academy about 11 years ago.....and thankfully, LEO has learned a lot since the days of The Onion Field mentality.

In our training there was no equivocation whatsoever: never give up your gun, now matter what. Period. Deal with the consequences as best you can. Still good advice today, IMHO.
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Old 08-09-2011, 03:02 PM
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I travel a lot internationally. Of course you can't carry guns or even lockblades in most countries. I walk around at night - because I'm usually working during the day. Well, suffice it to say, when all you're armed with is your O-fficial Boy Scout (non locking) pocket knife with a blade under 2" (all that's legal in London for example), if you're me anyway, you really get practiced on (as someone else said) 360 degree situational awareness and egress plans. I also always carry a whistle too. (Picture somebody running away zigzag blowing a whistle at the top of their lungs - see what I mean?) When I observe other people I'm often dumbfounded at how little situational awareness they display.

Which, IMHO, is all part and parcel of not allowing yourself to be hauled away to your doom by a BG.
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Old 08-09-2011, 03:28 PM
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I am on the road a lot with my 16 month old boy. If someone tells me we are going somewhere else, I have to grab my boy and run or worse case, use my sidearm and hope for the best. I REFUSE TO LOSE, especially when it comes to my wife or son. Of he wins, so be it but I am not going down without a big fight. I have 15 years of Judo and 20 years of shooting, I am fighting.
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Old 08-09-2011, 04:43 PM
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I believe "situational awareness" is perhaps the most important skill anyone can learn and practice. Yet, as mentioned by others, it's seldom used. How many times have you heard a victim say "but he came out of no-where". No he didn't, you just weren't watching.
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Old 08-09-2011, 05:55 PM
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Alrighty then...We's fixin to have one of 'em ol fashion shootin matches.

I done looked the elephant in the eye a time er two
and shook the monkey's paw too boot!


Su Amigo,
Dave


BTW, I've never been in a movin picture...But, I've always preformed my own stunts.
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Old 08-09-2011, 08:58 PM
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The last time that I remember a number being put to such in the gun mags, it was claimed that 83 percent of those suffering gunshot wounds from a handgun survived. That's the sort of odds that someone can probably live with.

Though I knew people that also hid guns in their trunk (in case they were shoved in there) and also kept razor blades and handcuff keys taped fore and aft under their belts.
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Old 08-15-2011, 01:34 AM
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sipowicz wrote:


Quote:
It happened to me once...two guys pulled up in a van and told me to get in or they'd kill me. I was scared to death but luckily the whole thing was a surprise party set up by my wife.
You folks that promote carry and shoot if caught in this scenario ... you gonna shoot sipowicz wife's friends ?
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Old 08-15-2011, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hook686 View Post
sipowicz wrote:




You folks that promote carry and shoot if caught in this scenario ... you gonna shoot sipowicz wife's friends ?
That's probably a great stunt...however, in the enviornment we all live in today it's is potentially a dangerous stunt.
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Old 08-15-2011, 01:06 PM
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That is the one time, when Running is not a cowardly act.
Most bad guys don't practice at the range.
Chances are he will miss.
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Old 08-15-2011, 03:46 PM
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My friends know better than that..because they could end up with a BIG hole and a toe tag..
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Old 08-16-2011, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by The Last Standing Knight View Post
AMEN! Oh, and in regards to the person hoping in your vehicle....keep your doors locked and windows up at least half way. I have been approached by people at stop lights who had more alterior motives than mere panhandling...fortunately, it hasn't crossed the line yet....hope it never does. But it has come MIGHTY close!
That reminds me of an incident I once witnessed. It was during a noon rush hour. A dude tried to get into a womans car, tried the door handle which was apparently locked, then proceeded to try and crawl into the window. The light turned green and she took off dragging the idiot all the way across the intersection before he fell off. Needless to say there was cheering from the other observers. Never underestimate the stupidity of an idiot.
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Old 08-16-2011, 08:22 PM
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i ask a state trooper this question many year's ago.his answer was simple ;UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE'S DO YOU ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE TAKEN TO ANOTHER LOCATION.
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Old 08-16-2011, 09:53 PM
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I tell them no thanks, unless their paying.
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Old 08-16-2011, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve in Vermont View Post
On this same line, probably the stupidest writing I've ever seen comes from the shows on TV where a perp takes a person hostage and, when confronted by a LEO, tells the officer to drop his gun or he'll shoot the hostage. And the officer does. Now the perp has another hostage and another gun. I figured if I was ever confronted by this situation I'd NEVER give up my gun, that I'd explain to the perp he has 2 choices, surrender and get a public defender or hurt the hostage and I'll execute him right then and there, regardless if he tries to surrender. Bottom line, the perp needs to understand, hostage dies, so do you. Any LEO out there with an opinion on this type of situation?
The fastest way to end a hostage situation is to shoot the hostage.

"Now you understand. Anything goes wrong, anything at all... your fault, my fault, nobody's fault... it don't matter...I'm gonna blow your head off. It's as simple as that."
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Old 08-16-2011, 11:36 PM
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This scenario, and the one when you are forced to turn around and/or kneel means that you are about to be killed. Take defensive or offensive action, or you are dead.
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Concealed Carry & Self Defense Thread, What to do if someone pulls a gun on you and wants to take you to a second location? in General Topics; Many times the victim feels that if he or she just cooperates he will make it out alive. Generally they ...
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