Home defense - know your rights

[gld1203]

A lengthy exchange on the M&P forum has been closed. Ok ...what do YOU think your rights are if someone busts into your house in the middle of the night? Do you have to go screaming out the back door, leaving your teenage daughter inside?

[Kanewpadle]

If someone breaks into my house, the only right I will think of is the right to survive. I seriously don't think there is a single person on this forum that would run out the back leaving a family member behind.

Kind of a ridiculous question ain't it?

I keep telling people this but they just don't get it. Spend more time thinking and doing what it takes to keep them OUT.

Home security simply isn't just having a gun. It's much more.

Do a search on home security or home invasions.

[gld1203]

Agree with you 100%. There's a poster who seriously thinks there's a duty to retreat inside your own home. The moderator closed the thread so i brought it here.

[Kanewpadle]

Well lets hope we keep this one civil.

[OK Hog Shooter]

Benelli M2 with 000 buck says the intruder is in the wrong house!

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by gld1203

Agree with you 100%. There's a poster who seriously thinks there's a duty to retreat inside your own home. The moderator closed the thread so i brought it here.

I don't care what the law says. I will protect myself and family. In my home, the law of survival supercedes any and all other laws.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by OK Hog Shooter

Benelli M2 with 000 buck says the intruder is in the wrong house!

I like your thinking.

[Black_Sheep]

Originally Posted by gld1203

Agree with you 100%. There's a poster who seriously thinks there's a duty to retreat inside your own home. The moderator closed the thread so i brought it here.

In Minnesota the castle doctrine legislation failed to pass so a homeowners first responsibility is to retreat. If they cannot retreat they are allowed to use lethal force only if confronted with lethal force.

Insane isn't it? If someone enters the house without consent they are a threat and will be dealt with accordingly, castle doctrine or no castle doctrine...

[rpbcab]

I agree, please keep it civil. I enjoy learning from the experts here on this site and sometimes the arguments make it hard to discover the gems from the mud. We live out in the country and we pay close attention to our security. After dark we are careful if we hear something that is out of the ordinary. We have automatic security lights, bright flashlights and big caliber guns both hand sized and long guns. I pray that I don't ever have to use my weapons in anger or fear. I will not run from my house, I will protect my family with any means necessary.

[gld1203]

Originally Posted by Black_Sheep

In Minnesota the castle doctrine legislation failed to pass so a homeowners first responsibility is to retreat. If they cannot retreat they are allowed to use lethal force only if confronted with lethal force.

Insane isn't it? If someone enters the house without consent they are a threat and will be dealt with accordingly, castle doctrine or no castle doctrine...

Oh boy, here we go. I'm in Alabama. The legislation you are talking about sought to EXTEND the castle doctrine to OUTSIDE your house, into the yard. It didn't pass. I learned that in less than one hour online.

You have the right to defend yourself and your family inside your house, EVEN IN MINNESOTA. YOU DON'T HAVE TO RETREAT INSIDE YOUR OWN HOME. Read the decision of your Minnesota Supreme Court in the Carothers case. Google it, you'll find it. Lord.

[Kanewpadle]

Look here guys, we don't need to discuss this state law or that state law. Each of us has the responsibility to know our state laws are far as the use of deadly force inside the home and out. Go to your states website and learn it.

No offense, but quite frankly, I don't care about state laws other than the one I live in.

Lets discuss HOW we will defend ourselves in our homes.

[gld1203]

Originally Posted by Kanewpadle

Look here guys, we don't need to discuss this state law or that state law. Each of us has the responsibility to know our state laws are far as the use of deadly force inside the home and out. Go to your states website and learn it.

No offense, but quite frankly, I don't care about state laws other than the one I live in.

Lets discuss HOW we will defend ourselves in our homes.

Well, it is a relevant discussion, imo, if some guys in Minnesota, or any other state, with all the best S&W has to offer, think their own laws prevent them from using their weapons, inside their own homes to defend themselves against an intruder.

It really irks me that these people think that way (there's at least 2 posters who do), and they post their wrong opinions as gospel. Someone may read this thread and reach the wrong opinion and pay for it with their life 3 or 4 hours from now.

[jlrhiner]

I find it hard to believe that any state would require you to abandon your home and family in the face of an agressor. If such a place does exist, the people need to start voting some knotheads out. These "what if" threads surface all the time, and I read some posts by some folks who sound like they think they have to roll over and play dead whenever threatned. This always astounds me. It's a primeval instinct to protect your family and friends, and I, for one, would bite someone to death if I had too. Any tool available, (knife, gun, club or spoon) will be utilized. I question the ethics of anyone who would act differently.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by gld1203

Well, it is a relevant discussion, imo, if some guys in Minnesota, or any other state, with all the best S&W has to offer, think their own laws prevent them from using their weapons, inside their own homes to defend themselves against an intruder.

It really irks me that these people think that way (there's at least 2 posters who do), and they post their wrong opinions as gospel. Someone may read this thread and reach the wrong opinion and pay for it with their life 3 or 4 hours from now.

Yes but, why try to change their mind if they are too ignorant to check the laws in their respective state?

Lets break this down. If ANY man or woman decides to let the bad guys in without a fight, and they or their family is harmed or killed, that man or woman has to live with it.

I'm not advocating that anyone break the law. But if I must break the law to protect myself or family in my own home, I will gladly go to jail knowing that they are fine.

It's really that simple and why I don't worry about it.

Instead of worry, I plan and stay prepared. Others can do as they please.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by gld1203

Well, it is a relevant discussion, imo, if some guys in Minnesota, or any other state, with all the best S&W has to offer, think their own laws prevent them from using their weapons, inside their own homes to defend themselves against an intruder.

It really irks me that these people think that way (there's at least 2 posters who do), and they post their wrong opinions as gospel. Someone may read this thread and reach the wrong opinion and pay for it with their life 3 or 4 hours from now.

Also, on the internet you will find all kinds of so called "experts". Experts that think they know it all.

Then there are those of us that use these forums to learn and be the best that we can be. To be as prepared as we can be.

Too many people think that just having a gun is good enough. They are in for a real rude awakening. And these are usually the people that get arrested for a gun related crime such as brandishing. All because they were too ignorant to read and understand the laws that are right under their nose.

Here in the State of Washington, when you recieve you carry permit there is a reference to the Revised Code of Washington which governs the use of firearms. I know of many who never read it.

[markush]

Originally Posted by gld1203

A lengthy exchange on the M&P forum has been closed. Ok ...what do YOU think your rights are if someone busts into your house in the middle of the night? Do you have to go screaming out the back door, leaving your teenage daughter inside?

Originally Posted by Kanewpadle

Look here guys, we don't need to discuss this state law or that state law. Each of us has the responsibility to know our state laws are far as the use of deadly force inside the home and out. Go to your states website and learn it.

No offense, but quite frankly, I don't care about state laws other than the one I live in.

Lets discuss HOW we will defend ourselves in our homes.

That is not what the OP is asking. In his title is "know your rights" in his text he writes "what do YOU think your rights are..."

I don't care to know what my state law is. I will stand my ground to defend me and mine and then if it turns out I was supposed to run away. I won't have to ACT ignorant, I will TRULY BE ignorant of the law.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by markush

That is not what the OP is asking. In his title is "know your rights" in his text he writes "what do YOU think your rights are..."

I don't care to know what my state law is. I will stand my ground to defend me and mine and then if it turns out I was supposed to run away. I won't have to ACT ignorant, I will TRULY BE ignorant of the law.

I understand completely. But this isn't the place LEARN what your rights are. Discussing them here is useless.

This isn't a legal forum. It's a gun forum.

The problem is that SOME of us are guessing what our rights are and people that need to learn these these things are getting the wrong information. Which is usually the case in gun forums.

A very simple and easy check of your states website is all that's needed.

Discussing HOW we defend ourselves is more relevant here.

[gld1203]

The thread on the M&P-15-22 board was closed because it was getting too long and off topic, with a gentle suggestion it be taken here.

I feel there's a persistent attitude that some posters think is fashionable, somehow, that they're going to do what they want in the face of unreasonable laws. For example, here's some excerpts from the 15-22 thread:

".. most places consider it manslaughter if you shoot them more then once .."

"If a bad guy breaks in your house, you absolutey have a duty to retreat, that means up staris, lockin yourself in a room, whatever."

"The prosecturs have gone after people for years and consistently our courts rule time and again on the citizen having the obligation and duty to retreat. Its ludacris but that's how it is."

"Does not apply in MA, you actually try and have to "Escape" if someone gets in your home, nice country!"

"Again, if you don't have to retreat or make a reasonable effort to do so, then why are states passing those laws (in my opinion, to over ride bad case law set by judges who don't like firearms.)"

"All I'm saying, is that in many states, as in mine, I have to make a reasonable attempt to retreat before using deadly force."

"I too, have to "make an effort to retreat" I would hate to have a jury or judge define what that means in MA."

Every statement quoted above is incorrect.

I may be wrong, but the rank and file gun guys on this forum proabably don't have the patience to do legal research on a state website as to what their respective states say about the crucial issue of defending themselves in their own homes. I am more than glad to help out in that regard, and to dispel some persistent false information being spread around.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by gld1203

The thread on the M&P-15-22 board was closed because it was getting too long and off topic, with a gentle suggestion it be taken here.

I feel there's a persistent attitude that some posters think is fashionable, somehow, that they're going to do what they want in the face of unreasonable laws. For example, here's some excerpts from the 15-22 thread:

".. most places consider it manslaughter if you shoot them more then once .."

"If a bad guy breaks in your house, you absolutey have a duty to retreat, that means up staris, lockin yourself in a room, whatever."

"The prosecturs have gone after people for years and consistently our courts rule time and again on the citizen having the obligation and duty to retreat. Its ludacris but that's how it is."

"Does not apply in MA, you actually try and have to "Escape" if someone gets in your home, nice country!"

"Again, if you don't have to retreat or make a reasonable effort to do so, then why are states passing those laws (in my opinion, to over ride bad case law set by judges who don't like firearms.)"

"All I'm saying, is that in many states, as in mine, I have to make a reasonable attempt to retreat before using deadly force."

"I too, have to "make an effort to retreat" I would hate to have a jury or judge define what that means in MA."

Every statement quoted above is incorrect.

I may be wrong, but the rank and file gun guys on this forum proabably don't have the patience to do legal research on a state website as to what their respective states say about the crucial issue of defending themselves in their own homes. I am more than glad to help out in that regard, and to dispel some persistent false information being spread around.

I would have to agree that those statements don't make sense. But to some they might. I commend you for trying to help. It's just that I quit wasting my time trying to help those that won't help themselves.

There are many good people here willing to share their knowledge and experience. Some of us need to pay attention to them.

[cmort666]

Originally Posted by gld1203

A lengthy exchange on the M&P forum has been closed. Ok ...what do YOU think your rights are if someone busts into your house in the middle of the night? Do you have to go screaming out the back door, leaving your teenage daughter inside?

In Ohio, I have the right to defend myself with deadly force if in my home [or automobile], somebody puts me in reasonable fear of life and limb, and I have the [rebuttable] presumption of justification. Any REASONABLE person would be put in fear of life and limb by a home invasion, at night or at any other time. I have absolutely ZERO duty to retreat one inch, never mind out of my home, especially never mind to the peril of anyone in my care.

Summary: Kick in my door and you're getting shot. I'll walk and you [or your survivors] will be barred BY LAW from collecting a penny from me.

If you want to be a home invader, you'd be well advised to pick a different venue than Ohio.

[ikor]

Laws are made by men. There are good men and bad ones, good laws and bad. Among the most basic of rights is the right to life. My yard is fenced and the gates kept locked. My doors are also kept locked...no one is going to just 'wander in'...especially not in the wee hours of the morning, etc. Anyone who comes crashing in uninvited is likely to not only get to see the business end of one or another heavy caliber firearms I keep loaded and close at hand. but unless they fall flat and surrender PDQ without being asked, they are going to see what comes out of it. Castle Doctrine or not.

[vytoland]

those that enter uninvited…………………don’t get to leave……………..standing up!

[hatt]

People just like to make up stuff. My brother in law says you can't shoot anyone who isn't armed. Even in your house. He can never answer how you're going to know they're armed at 2am in the dark until they shot or stab you. But that doesn't stop him from believing.

[Bombsaway]

Not in Tennessee I don't. We have the Castle Doctrine here. I told my wife that if ANYONE enters my home uninvited, especially in the dark of night, it's the last thing they will every do.

Same goes for someone who tries to carjack me. Castle Doctrine extends to my vehicle as well.

[markush]

Originally Posted by Kanewpadle

I understand completely. But this isn't the place LEARN what your rights are. Discussing them here is useless.


Discussing HOW we defend ourselves is more relevant here.

This is hilarious! I'm sure it is safe to assume you were part of the discussion that was shut down. You are saying the OP's topic is irrelevant and are attempting to take over the disscusion!!....just hilarious!!

[southflorida-law]

In Florida any unauthorized entry into your home is considered a threat and no retreat is necessary. Also in FL, we have the "stand your ground" law, so you don’t have any duty to retreat in any emergency.

Of course, the gray area will always be was "deadly force" warranted. But in the home you are pretty safe, in Florida.

Do a search of your local/state laws for “justifiable use of deadly force”. Should cover everything.

If you are going to carry a loaded gun either know the law or know a good attorney (before you attempt to carry it)

[blujax01]

Hey if some dude thinks he has to retreat/leave his home in case of a break-in, it doesn't matter to me whether he does or not. It isn't my choice (or yours) it's his. "Fashionable persistent attitudes" of others is neither my business (nor yours) it's the business of that person and no one else.

"Irked" by what other people think? Now that's hilarious. And also, none of your business (nor mine).

Out.

[oldman45]

Question: Would you be willing to have a family member or yourself die over state law?

Many years ago, being a newly wed and on a trip through Anniston, AL, we stopped at a motel for two nights. About 2am, we were awaken with someone breaking in to our room. I am not talking about coming through the door but breaking the night chain and entering. It took the guy two kicks to get in.

I did not even think about or know what state law was. My wife was pushed to the floor on the far side of the bed and I was on my knees with a .357 mag (model 66) pointed at the man's chest. He was ordered to stay right where he was and not move either direction. Had he moved, I would have shot. I may have gotten into a heap of trouble but that was the least of my worries. Within minutes, but seemed like hours, the police arrived and the man began to resist but it was their problem. All they asked me was what our names were, if we knew the man and why we were in town.

Everyone violates laws, depending on the circumstances. A few weeks ago, I drove at speeds approaching 100 MPH to get a person with large cut to the hospital. She was on blood thinners and had cut an artery and was 15 miles from the nearest hospital. It was not the time to worry about speed laws. Self defense is much the same. You do what you have to and accept the consequences.

[Black_Sheep]

Originally Posted by gld1203

Oh boy, here we go. I'm in Alabama. The legislation you are talking about sought to EXTEND the castle doctrine to OUTSIDE your house, into the yard. It didn't pass. I learned that in less than one hour online.

You have the right to defend yourself and your family inside your house, EVEN IN MINNESOTA. YOU DON'T HAVE TO RETREAT INSIDE YOUR OWN HOME. Read the decision of your Minnesota Supreme Court in the Carothers case. Google it, you'll find it. Lord.

I found the 1998 Carouthers case summary No.C8-98-86, if anything it refutes your insistance that there is no duty to retreat.

DECISION
The court did not err in instructing the jury that there is a duty to retreat inside the place of abode.

The bulk of last summers CCW renewal class focused on the legal aspects of using a firearm for self defense, including the obligation to retreat if possible. I don't agree with the concept but it is what it is. Further research indicates that The Defense of Dwelling and Person Act of 2011 never made it to the Governors desk...

Senate leadership kills Stand Your Ground « MN-GOCRA

[Stu1205]

In Florida we have the castle doctrine too. You do not have to reteat in your house, and it also extends to the street.
However, here is the safest way to proceed. This is what I teach in my home safety course.
First, have a safe room with a solid core door and a dead bolt.
Make sure your gun is in there along with a cell phone.
If you have young children, make it one of their rooms but do not have the gun in there.
If someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night, get everybody into the safe room if possible and lock the door.
Call 911 on your cell phone and tell the police what happened, what room you are in, and that you have a firearm.
Tell them that you will defend your family if anybody breaks into the room. Never say shoot or kill, say defend.
Tell them you are going to stay on the line so that they can hear exactly what is going on.
This way if you do use deadly force, they will have it on tape that it was justified.
Also tell them to have the police identify themselves to you once they clear the house.
If someone tries to gain access to your safe room, tell them that you are armed and that you will defend yourself.
It is easier to defend a 36" opening than to search through your house and shoot somebody or get shot yourself.
Remember, there is nothing that you own that is worth getting shot over or taking anothers life.
I am an excellent shot, and would not hesitate to use my gun for self defense if need be, but only as a last resort.

Stay safe.

Stu

[Rule 303]

Every gun owner who has a gun for self defense should know the Legal and Moral Aspects of using that gun for Self Defense.

And they should really really know the "Magic Words" to tell the nice LE Officers.

Rule 303

[oldman45]

Mr Stu, your plans might work in a perfect world. Unfortunately we do not live in such a place.

By the time you find an intruder in your house, they have the edge on you. It is way too late to get your family in a safe room. Their eyes are adjusted to the darkness, yours is not. Your best advantage is knowing the layout of your home. Remaining still and silent is to your benefit.

Since most homes have the kids room being remote from the master, getting there is going to be dangerous.

You do not know what type arms the intruder has. Most of the time you do not know where in the house he is. A local man named Dolce many years ago came home with his wife from their restaurant. His wife was astute enough to see something out of place as they walked in and screamed. He shoved her out the door to call police (before cell phones) and she ran next door. He pulled the gun he carried, as near as can be determined, about the same time a perp came from behind a couch. Two others came from other areas in the house. He left one dead in the house, another found a short distance away from the house and a third got away. Mr Dolce sustained fatal wounds. This was with the lights on.

I have gone into many darkend homes and businesses in years past. Sometimes I still get to do so by request. It is best using two people to sweep rooms. In reality, it is best for the homeowner to remain where he is and just make certain of his target. A perp is not interested in your family, they only want money, drugs or goods that can be converted into cash.

Fortunately the odds are on your side in that you will never be broken in on. I certainly hope you are not because moving about your home with an intruder inside can be fatal to you.

[cshoff]

Originally Posted by oldman45

Mr Stu, your plans might work in a perfect world. Unfortunately we do not live in such a place.

By the time you find an intruder in your house, they have the edge on you. It is way too late to get your family in a safe room. Their eyes are adjusted to the darkness, yours is not. Your best advantage is knowing the layout of your home. Remaining still and silent is to your benefit.

Unfortunately, that isn't really an option for a "mom" or "dad" who has kids in the house he/she has to look out for. Parental instinct is to GO TO THOSE KIDS AND MAKE SURE THEY ARE SAFE RIGHT NOW! And you can't train that instinct out of mom and dad. For these folks, having a response plan in place that has been rehearsed ahead of time, is their best option.

Since most homes have the kids room being remote from the master, getting there is going to be dangerous.

You do not know what type arms the intruder has. Most of the time you do not know where in the house he is. A local man named Dolce many years ago came home with his wife from their restaurant. His wife was astute enough to see something out of place as they walked in and screamed. He shoved her out the door to call police (before cell phones) and she ran next door. He pulled the gun he carried, as near as can be determined, about the same time a perp came from behind a couch. Two others came from other areas in the house. He left one dead in the house, another found a short distance away from the house and a third got away. Mr Dolce sustained fatal wounds. This was with the lights on.

I have gone into many darkend homes and businesses in years past. Sometimes I still get to do so by request. It is best using two people to sweep rooms. In reality, it is best for the homeowner to remain where he is and just make certain of his target. A perp is not interested in your family, they only want money, drugs or goods that can be converted into cash.

I would say in most cases, that would be correct. The intruder is usually looking for some kind of easy-to-grab contraband that can be used/sold to purchase drugs. With that said, it's certainly not a given and it's certainly not something you can count on. When a person unlawfully enters your occupied home, you MUST assume that this person intends to cause you/your family severe bodily harm or death. Period. Negotiating with this person or leaving your kids at the other end of the house to fend for themselves is NOT an option.

Fortunately the odds are on your side in that you will never be broken in on. I certainly hope you are not because moving about your home with an intruder inside can be fatal to you.

Absolutely. And that applies no matter who you are and no matter how well trained you are.

[mc5aw]

Exactly how many average people (those who have not been trained or experienced high pressure/high duress scenarios like military or LEO) will have the 1) presence of mind to mentally review their respective state laws when confronted by a home intruder; 2) act exclusively based upon that immediate mental review of their respective state laws?

I say none. You prepare and train for the worst possible situation, but can never accurately predict how you will react if that worst possible scenario becomes a reality. The time it takes to consider "Does my state allow me to defend myself with deadly force against that individual who is now robbing my home in the middle of the night/threatening me and my family/coming at my from the dark with an object raised above his head?" can mean the difference between a happy or tragic ending for you. He who hesitates is lost.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by markush

This is hilarious! I'm sure it is safe to assume you were part of the discussion that was shut down. You are saying the OP's topic is irrelevant and are attempting to take over the disscusion!!....just hilarious!!

Don't like it? Tough. Guys like you just can't wait to throw in their worthless two cents and start a fight.

Pretty weak attempt at getting another thread locked.

[oldman45]

Cshoff, of course what you say is true but not practical. By moving about, you run a major risk of alerting to your position and that of your children. Have you ever tried to move sleeping young kids in a hurry? It takes motion and sounds. Both of which is not beneficial to your well being. Once you have been made, it is more likely you, the wife and kids will become hostages. This has taken place many times over the years in many states. A dr and his daughters were taken hostage some time ago. It made national news. The wife was sent to a bank to withdraw a lot of money for the two intruders. That done, and she notified police, she gave them what they wanted and they still killed everyone in the family but the doctor. It is far better to remain silent and wait for the fight to come to you. Then the element of suprise is on your side.

Restraint should be practiced in many ways.

[cshoff]

Originally Posted by oldman45

Cshoff, of course what you say is true but not practical.

I disagree. A "safe room", as was talked about by Stu in his earlier reply, is only one layer in (what should be) a multi-layered approach to home defense. An established and practiced response plan for securing that "safe room" in the event of a security breach, is absolutely practical, provided that it is being done as a part of a larger overall home defense plan.

On the other hand, a one-dimensional home defense plan isn't really a plan at all. If a person believes he/she and his/her family will be able to quickly and efficiently respond to a home invasion at the spur of the moment, without any previous preparation or planning, he/she is kidding themselves.

By moving about, you run a major risk of alerting to your position and that of your children. Have you ever tried to move sleeping young kids in a hurry? It takes motion and sounds. Both of which is not beneficial to your well being. Once you have been made, it is more likely you, the wife and kids will become hostages.

My younger brother and his wife use a "safe room" as a part of their home defense strategy. They also have an established and rehearsed protocol in place for getting there. As it turns out, the "safe room" is actually their 6 year old son's bedroom which is directly across the hall from their bedroom - very quick and easy to get to. Combined with the motion sensing lighting on the exterior of the house, entry alarms on all doors and windows, two watchful dogs in the house, as well as a monitored security system, it's an effective and realistic way for them to deal with a potential home invasion. They can leave the two dogs to fend for themselves while they hunker down with their son in his bedroom behind a locked security door, guns in hand, and police dispatch on the phone.

This has taken place many times over the years in many states. A dr and his daughters were taken hostage some time ago. It made national news. The wife was sent to a bank to withdraw a lot of money for the two intruders. That done, and she notified police, she gave them what they wanted and they still killed everyone in the family but the doctor. It is far better to remain silent and wait for the fight to come to you. Then the element of suprise is on your side.

Restraint should be practiced in many ways.

Mistakes can always lead to unintended consequences. The idea is that proper planning and proper training can help to minimize the potential that those mistakes will be made in the first place.

[Kanewpadle]

Oldman, Cshoff, I think your both right to a point.

My point in every one of these home defense discussions is TIME. Time react and put yourself in situation to be proactive. To be proactive instead of reactive may save a life.

Whether it's time to gather the kids and move to a safe room, grab a gun, seek cover, call police etc......

Time is everything. It's why we are trained to MOVE AND SHOOT on the street. It's no different in the home. By giving yourself some time to better prepare yourself for a fight.

Given enough time, the need to hurry and scurry about the house becomes unneccessary. Time and a plan will put you in a better position to win.

As a professional locksmith I have helped people secure their homes for the past 20 years. Most people think that we stand around and cut a few keys or open an occasional car. If they only knew. I even made a key to the trunk of a guys car. Little did I know there was a dead body inside. I didn't find out until the local police called me in for questioning months later after they caught the guy. The customer insisted that once I made the key, I was NOT to open the trunk. If I did I probably wouldn't be here now.

Many people I help have been robbed, burgled, invaded, and sometimes worse. Every single one of them was not prepared.

The last customer I helped was an older couple in a middle class neighborhood. The burglar broke in through a service door under their house which was built on a hill side. Once inside he waited until they went to sleep. He then cut a hole through the drywall and went inside the house.

He then sat on the couch for a while to make sure they were asleep. Then he stole what he could carry.

The couple heard the front door open and close and knew there was someone inside. They stayed in the bedroom and called police.

Once the cops arrived they sent in a dog. The dog tracked the burglars sent throughout the house. Turns out the burglar even entered their bedroom and walked around both sides of the bed.

The burglar stole some valuables and made of with their car including house keys.

The couple didn't sleep well for weeks after that.

The moral? Prepare well. Look at your home at all angles. Think like a theif. I tell my customers to do whatever will help them sleep at night.

My house? My one and only weekness is someone following a family member inside. But fortunately, I can see who comes and goes well before they reach the front door.

I have the strongest deadbolts made. The strongest strike plates. And strong steel doors. All PROPERLY installed. All the glass is protected by a laminate film. They only way in without a key is to drive right through the front door.

So, if someone tries to get in, whether we are awake or asleep, we will hear them. And we will have plenty of time to be proactive.

Both my wife and I grab our glasses, gun and flashlight. Then we call for help. She goes to her fathers room right next to ours and I cover the hallway. She only shoots if I'm down and someone enters the hallway.

Sorry for the long read. But I believe home defense starts at the perimeter and then inwards ending with firearms.

[TexasArmed]

GLD:

Originally Posted by gld1203

A lengthy exchange on the M&P forum has been closed. Ok ...what do YOU think your rights are if someone busts into your house in the middle of the night? Do you have to go screaming out the back door, leaving your teenage daughter inside?

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Every time I read post on subjects like this one, I am thankful that I live in Texas and we have no duty to retreat from a criminal anywhere, especially in the home. Additionally, someone breaking into a home. Tennessee used to have a duty to retreat. Unlike some on these forums, I do not use an animal, nor an alarm system but nobody can get into my home without me knowing it if I am home. At home I am always armed with a CA Bulldog 44 Spl and even in the bathroom I carry my air weight stainless steel S&W 38 Spl, so if someone gets in, they will be met with gunfire. I do not warn anyone but would simply wait for them to get into my line of fire. I made it a point to read the Texas statutes in the Castle Doctrine when I moved to Texas. People may think I am strange because I come to the door armed and ready because I live in a neighborhood that was and still is considered dangerous.

[LennyLames]

Originally Posted by Black_Sheep

In Minnesota the castle doctrine legislation failed to pass so a homeowners first responsibility is to retreat..

I spend quite a bit of time in Minnesota, although I live primarily in a "castle doctrine" state. When it's 25 degrees below zero (or even when it's in the teens), I'm not going to attempt a retreat to the outside, as the forces of nature can be lethal :-)

Here in the desert southwest, there's a large rattlesnake roaming my yard (really) so retreat is also out of the question. Besides, AZ is a castle doctrine state.

With family around, I fear for them more than I fear for my own safety. If groups or individuals are aggressive enough to do a home invasion while security alarms are blaring, it's reasonable to conclude that they won't leave any witnesses. Even very young children are potential witnesses that can eventually identify the perpetrators. If your loved ones are at risk, would you just raise your arms and tell the criminals to "take whatever they want" and hope that it just remains a property crime?

[TexasArmed]

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Hat:

Originally Posted by hatt

People just like to make up stuff. My brother in law says you can't shoot anyone who isn't armed. Even in your house. He can never answer how you're going to know they're armed at 2am in the dark until they shot or stab you. But that doesn't stop him from believing.

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I would say that the answer depends on what state you live in.
In Texas, no duty to retreat, someone breaking in, can be shot
without regard to whether they are armed or not. But if you are so unfortunate to live in a State with a duty to retreat, or in a State where there is no castle doctrine, or else in one of the criminal santuaries cities where, only criminals can have guns, he might be right. The police will take a report after it is all over in that case.

[oldman45]

Cshoff,

Your family members, or anyone else, with a safe room can have them as secure as they want. A safe room works well during storms. I have never heard of an entire family successfully using a safe room. Yes, a single individual can or even a couple that was already in the same room. I have a sprinkler system in my office. It is supposed to work in theory. It looks good, Will it work in practice? I cannot say for sure but it is better than nothing. A safe room is a feel good idea but I bet you have never known anyone to successfully use one during a home invasion. That safe room of yours would make a great place for someone to place your family while they burn your house down as happened with the dr mentioned in an earlier post.

A cell phone is a great thing to have since many burglars cut phone lines. My security alarm works off cellular notification so cutting phone service is not going to stop the police from being notified. Yet my alarm service is best for alerting me and possibly to scare away an intruder. It will still take several minutes for police response to take place.

The problem is all the planning in the world is based on everything going according to plan. If one thing goes wrong, the entire plan falls apart. There are many layers of protection that one can have. My community is gated (a real joke). I have outside lighting , front and rear, that is on all night and covers 70% of my yard. I have double deadbolt locks on each of the three exit doors. I have my garage door switched off at night. All my windows are double locked. Then I have my alarm system. Then my loud barking dog. If one makes it past all that, I have me.

Yet why would a burglar want to break in to my house other than to take gun safes that would require a lot of help? WHy would one want to break in while I am home? What are they going to get from me that my wife has not already taken?

Home invasions happen while one is gone with maybe only one or two people home. They take place when someone answers the door and then force that person back in the home. Doing so allows them time to go through the house without interruption.

Home invasions are more likely if one lives in a rural area, a drug area, a low income area, have a business where the proceeds are brought home daily or have something of great value that is known in the area. I doubt you know of a single incidence where a home of a friend or family member was raided while the family was home during night time hours.

[cshoff]

Originally Posted by oldman45

Cshoff,

Your family members, or anyone else, with a safe room can have them as secure as they want. A safe room works well during storms. I have never heard of an entire family successfully using a safe room. Yes, a single individual can or even a couple that was already in the same room. I have a sprinkler system in my office. It is supposed to work in theory. It looks good, Will it work in practice? I cannot say for sure but it is better than nothing. A safe room is a feel good idea but I bet you have never known anyone to successfully use one during a home invasion. That safe room of yours would make a great place for someone to place your family while they burn your house down as happened with the dr mentioned in an earlier post.

Come on, you know that is just so much nonsense. A "safe room" isn't a "be all, end all" solution to a possible home invasion. It is simply one layer in (what should be) a multi-layered security approach. Clearly if a family was locked in a "safe room" and the house was set on fire, they would need to retreat out one of the windows. Likewise, if an intruder actually attempted to enter the house through one of the windows in the "safe room", then that room would no longer be considered "safe".

A "safe room", as is used by my younger brother and his family, is simply an effective way for he and his wife to make sure that their son is kept safe in the event of a home invasion. They can literally walk out of their bedroom door, take two steps across the hall, and be in his room in less than a second. Alternatively, if conditions dictate they do something different, then they have several contingency plans in place to deal with them. In each case, however, their son is their priority and his safety is their primary concern.

Nobody here is suggesting that a "safe room" must be used at all costs, only that it is a viable option under certain circumstances. Your suggestion that everyone just sit back and relax, on the other hand, and wait for the "bad guy" to find you, is NOT viable for most people who have kids in the house. You're going to be hard pressed to find a 6 year old kid who will have the ability to hide quietly in his/her room while a home invader is working his way through the house, no matter how much the kid has been drilled to do so. And if you think mom and dad aren't going to try to protect that child, you better guess again. It is much better for this family to have a plan in place, with contingencies in place also, before hand.

A cell phone is a great thing to have since many burglars cut phone lines. My security alarm works off cellular notification so cutting phone service is not going to stop the police from being notified. Yet my alarm service is best for alerting me and possibly to scare away an intruder. It will still take several minutes for police response to take place.

Absolutely.

The problem is all the planning in the world is based on everything going according to plan. If one thing goes wrong, the entire plan falls apart.

Here, again, I disagree. PROPER planning is based on exactly the opposite. It is based on everything going wrong and then having to respond to changing conditions on the fly. It is, as I mentioned above, about developing a response plan that contains contingencies for dealing with changing circumstances. It is exactly why comprehensive firearms training doesn't end with good marksmanship. It is exactly why self defense training encompasses avoidance and deescalation skills in addition to unarmed combatives and weapons skills.

There are many layers of protection that one can have. My community is gated (a real joke). I have outside lighting , front and rear, that is on all night and covers 70% of my yard. I have double deadbolt locks on each of the three exit doors. I have my garage door switched off at night. All my windows are double locked. Then I have my alarm system. Then my loud barking dog. If one makes it past all that, I have me.

Yet why would a burglar want to break in to my house other than to take gun safes that would require a lot of help? WHy would one want to break in while I am home? What are they going to get from me that my wife has not already taken?

Home invasions happen while one is gone with maybe only one or two people home. They take place when someone answers the door and then force that person back in the home. Doing so allows them time to go through the house without interruption.

Home invasions are more likely if one lives in a rural area, a drug area, a low income area, have a business where the proceeds are brought home daily or have something of great value that is known in the area. I doubt you know of a single incidence where a home of a friend or family member was raided while the family was home during night time hours.

Yet we can read about home invasions that took place while people were home in the newpapers around this country every day. The stories are on our nightly news. PROPER planning would dictate that we prepare for the worse case scenario - ie: a home invasion that takes place while we and our family are home. We can't count on it not happening and it would be naive of us to pretend it can't. Denial can get you killed.

[sirrduke2010]

When interpreting your state's Castile Doctrine a couple of significant errors people make is that the don't read the whole law. Many times the right to shoot is dependent on a couple of sentences. Also looking for the word "and" and "or" is particularly important because "and" usually means all the variables provided must be satisfied whereas "or" can mean any the reasons could satisfy, 2 or more reasons could satisfy, or all of the reasons could satisfy the reason to use deadly force. In other words the right to use deadly force could be dependent on additional variables.

Imagine taken that doctrine one step further and you have a small kid of 12 or an old confused lady of 70 has broken your window, gotten into your house, and is taking your possessions do you have the right to use lethal force on them under the Castile Doctrine? Will the Castile Doctrine protect you? You being a person 6'6" tall and are young and athletic.

[AZretired]

Originally Posted by gld1203

A lengthy exchange on the M&P forum has been closed. Ok ...what do YOU think your rights are if someone busts into your house in the middle of the night? Do you have to go screaming out the back door, leaving your teenage daughter inside?

You don't say where you are from so it's hard to answer as the answer will vary from state to state. Regardless, no you would not have to abandon you daughter (at least in most states)

[MaximumLawman]

Does anyone here actually know someone personally who was charged with a crime for shooting a burglar in their house who wasn't a family member?

[Hook686]

In California I understand there is no duty to retreat.

However I think one needs to be willing to take a beat down before using lethal force.

[oldman45]

Other things most people overlook.

1. Few home invasions take place when residents are home.

2. Most home invasions are done by those looking for one particular thing such as drugs or illegal cash.

As to being armed, many yrs ago we had a case where a well respected and liked man went to get his newspaper. Shots were fired and he was found dead in his driveway with the paper in his hand. Over 30 yrs later, there is not one single lead or clue that would allow solving the case. He was a gun collector but unarmed when shot. Was he targeted? We think so but no motive for his being so. What would have prevented this? Nothing. He likely never saw it coming. Most home invasions happen at a time that fives the crook the edge.

[jws1006]

We have a really good Castle Law here.Any vehicle any building,your home,their home,any where you have the legal right to be,or in defense of other person.We dont have to run,hide,cry, beg for mercy, or try get away.So if you try to break in on me or the little old lady next door ,car jack me or the person next to me at the red light,call in advance and pick your favorite caliber

[brown10]

Florida is pretty solid when it comes to personal defense & the Castle Doctrine, so I'm pretty comfortable with my home & my car. I need to research what I can do on my property outside of the house. This past Monday evening the car alarm/horn on my truck went off at around 3am. It parks in the rear of a 1/2 acre lot. I investigated with my Kimber and a combat style flashlight. Didn't find anything. I don't want to shoot anyone, especially a kid, just for being on my property at night; not even for stealing a vehicle. I'm just not sure how to handle the different scenarios that could arrise from a situation like that. I do carry a business card for an attorney who specializes in defensive shooting cases in my wallet with my CCW. Good discussion & much knowledge here. - jerry