Boy I may have walked into it but this older style point shoot method in a remarkably short time is already making my wife and I shoot with more accuracy and speed at 10-20ft distances than we've ever been able to do with sighting. In fact with some dry fire mixed with the range we're already nailing 3" circles I draw on the center of paper plates. We just focus on a spot, forget the sights, clutch the gun with an almost painful grip while crouched and from a stiff arm and SHAZAM! I've even started doing the gut to head zipper practice and we actually have never felt so confident in our abilities. This is in no small part to some very kind people on the S&W forum that have sent us links, references and lead us to the materials for Applegate and Shooting for Keeps. But we are already, due the lightning fast results, looking for more advanced ways to practice mobility, advancing on a target or defending against two attackers. Methods that seem bass-ackwards from logic but apparently work flawlessly during fight or flight, low light and close quarters. We can't practice to that degree on the local outdoor range here, especially drawing from the holster, not allowed. We also have to fire from the line directly forward.

So like a naive idiot I found a super professional shooting school here in the city that's fully endorsed, uses the local combat competition pit ranges at the gun club nearby. I was so taken back by their response I had to go read this speech-presentation by Applegate before his death, to recharge myself in the belief I am truly on the track of learning that will make me many times more effective than the more advanced muscle memory target sighting methods I can always work on long term for the rest of my training path.

If you read the (EMAIL BELOW) shooting school owner-instructor's comments he says things in direct conflict with Applegate. I have dry fire tested PS in my home at night and I cannot see any sights, and with a gun flash? forget about it. I also would not retreat as he indicates. In my mind I may even close the distance instantly firing from the gut upward to freeze up the bad guy and increase my accuracy. Wouldn't backing up while shooting be counter productive and even dangerous if I fall?

Is it true that noone teaches this anymore and it's outdated and not effective? I'm just picturing students on a fancy range full of props learning to walk backwards over smooth predictable terrain with sunlight and the weaver stance scoring wonderfully on the score sheet then getting in a real live situation and getting their arse shot off.

Sorry if this topic is old hat to many of you here. Likely more experienced than I. I know guns, hunting but I've never known self defense to this extent and the results are already eye opening to us. I'm not dismissing the advanced sighting methods completely but honestly if I'm 40-50 feet away why not just escape?

Applegate presentation, I had to go read again.
http://www.birdflumanual.com/resourc...nstructors.pdf

More on PS
AIMED Point Shooting or P&S


EMAIL I SENT

Hi

I'm interested specifically in point shoot , combat firing, aka
Applegate style training for my wife, son and I. Could you advise me if you have those courses?

Thanks
Mr Me

======
EMAIL REPLY from Pro teacher

Mr x;

Applegate's Point Shooting concept was cutting edge in the 1940s. With the advent of competitive combat/practical pistol shooting in the 80s it was quickly realized it was possible for a skilled shooter to actually visually track the front sight through the recoil, conveying significant improvements in accuracy. Applegates concept has subsequently fallen out of favor - almost no one teaches Point Shooting anymore. I don't know of anyone who teaches it except as a historical footnote example.

Everyone these days teaches front sight focus. With practice a good shooter can go from holster to six shots on target in a six inch circle while retreating in under three seconds - with front sight focus.

Look at xxxx Club for range space - they allow this type of practice. Also see www.ourxxxxsite.com.

Mr xxxx
Co-owner

Have a buddy who is a California parole agent. They just got new M&P40's, and they are retraining him heavily in point and shoot.

California Division of Parole Selects Smith Wesson M P40 Pistol

Point & Shoot works better with some guns than others. The 1911 is one that it works well with. This is due to the index finger being so close to the alignment of the gun barrel, point and shooting works well. The higher the barrel, the less it works or requires more correction.

There was a lengthy article in one of the gun mags this month about this and it went into detail.

Here is a link to a school that still teaches point shooting.

Suarez International Point Shooting Progressions

In competition point shooting isn't used because the difference between hitting the x-ring and a 10 is a big thing. Everyone seems to fall into the trap that we must do and use what the top shooters do any anything old is no longer any good. That is of course BS.

Look at how folks talk about the lowly .38 snub. Totally inadequate for self defense according to many "experts". It worked in the past and still works, just like point shooting still works, at reasonable ranges of course.

Common sense tells me it is foolish to use 2 hands and look at sights if you can shoot one handed from the hip and hit the target. Larry

It seems like every case of SD with a gun will be different, making it necessary for a different response. Having a criminal walk around a corner in your home, and find him feet away, will illicit one action. Having him standing at the end of a long hallway, perhaps another. In some situations all you may have time to do is pull your gun, point, and fire from the hip. In others, there may be time to get a good sight picture. This suggests that we need to incorporate these possibilities in our training/practice and develop the ability to be flexible in adapting responses to situations. It all comes down to being able to shoot as fast and accurately as possible using whatever position the situation demands.

I have always been trained in "point and shoot" method of shooting. The "KEY" is the distance. 3 yards to 5 yards OK,
5 yards to 10 yards, point shoulder shooting. Remember, at futher than 5 yards, front sight, front sight, front sight, front sight.............

Rule 303

I would have to disagree with the person who replied to your email in that, in my experience, MOST trainers/organizations ARE still teaching one variety or another of "point shooting", though perhaps not specifically the Applegate method.

Even the NRA Personal Protection courses cover shooting from retention. Shooting from retention is covered in nearly all academy-level firearms training programs that LEO's go through and it's covered by just about any of the "top tier" trainers I can think of at some point in their training programs. That said, it's hard to argue that tactics and techniques have changed drastically over the past few decades and the use of point shooting within that realm has changed as well.

To use a little bit of Socrates and be philosophical...."there is nothing new under the sun...you just have to remember it"....ok that is a little poetic license on the paraphrase but the message is the same....what works...works.....some people have better memories and remember every minutia of the incident, others don't...the use of force is not a day at the range...sure you must practice but with stress levels elevated it is a lot different...I recall going to one school and the instructor told me that under stress fine motor skills went out the window and I asked him how then could I pull the trigger since that was a fine motor skill....yeah he didn't like me much....train what works for you....point shooting IMHO is a great skill....but I also use a long bow.....and throw a football with my son.....the first thing that would have thrown me off about that email reply was the part when he said "competitive"...I don't shoot for trophies...just me, stay safe

Little Brother,
Point and shoot seems to be working for you. Go with it. Perfect it.
Keep posting the results. I will do the same.

Beat me to it.

There's sometimes a fight between those who like point shooting and those who don't.

I don't think people realize that both point shooting and steady aimed shooting may be neccessary to defend yourself. And both should be practiced.

Now this is just my opinion, formed over 30+ years of gun handling, which 14 of those years I was in the Navy.(No I was not a SEAL)

PS is still a viable skill. Just because something is old does not mean it will not work, just like the example above with the .38 snub. All the new stuff I have seen was designed and perfected by and for the Spec-Op people working as a team and the competition shooters.

The truth is most people would feel ripped off if they paid the big bucks for a fancy Gun Drill school and all they were showed was how to PS. Also there is no money to be made teaching PS, you can learn the basics from the Col. and perfect it with a lot of range time.

The truth of the matter is, in an SD situation you do not need to be able to cover a five round group with a quarter.

Hey I'm here and just soaking up the information, links. It's a relief to see so many people that agree on so many points. I like the whole continuum idea shown in the SFK video which might be from around the late 90s and shows how techniques can feather together. But as said we can already target shoot but where my wife needs help is learning to shoot in that panic mode with the method that's in harmony with that kaos. And I gotta agree, how can defense or combat be much different now that 1835, 1940. If you are that far away to sight shoot, I might be able to get away.

That's because if all they taught you was how to point shoot, it wouldn't be a very comprehensive class.

No, perhaps not, but you DO need to be able to place combat accurate hits on your target from various distances under various circumstances WITHOUT hitting innocent bystanders. Oftentimes, that means you MUST use sighted fire.

Folks, defensive pistolcraft is NOT a one-dimensional skill set. It is an assembly of a variety of skills, tactics, and techniques that might well be needed to save our backsides under any number of different variables. "Point Shooting" in various forms, as well as different sighted-fire techniques, are BOTH important parts of the equation.

I agree, the more tools in your tool box, means you are more able to handle what ever comes up. Just don't let form out do function.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that you need to be familiar with both sight and point shooting methods, at least if the purpose is self-defense. Further, you need to know your strengths and weaknesses with each, and when it's best to employ each method based on those strengths and weaknesses.

I practice both sight and point shooting, one-handed (weak and strong side) and two-handed. Through that practice I've figured out what works best for me, and that may change as my skills evolve. Ultimately you have to figure out what works best for you and develop those skills as best you can.

There are instructors that teach point shooting. One way to search for them is to also search for people who teach WWII fighting techniques, or "gutterfighting," as its sometimes called. In addition to teaching point shooting, many of them teach empty hand, knife, and stick techniques that are effective but simple to learn and retain. I've been wanting to learn those methods but unfortunately I haven't been able to find any in my area. You might have better luck.

I may be wrong and this is just my opinion. But I don't think point shooting can be taught. I think people understand the idea but still can't do so effectively.

Some of us can throw a baseball and hit the glove. Some of us will be JUST outside. Same with a football, golf, darts and many other sports. Some of us lack the hand eye coordination.

Three to five yards, yeah maybe they can. And maybe that's all they need in a perfect world. But I've seen people who can't. I think point shooting comes naturally to those who do so effectively.

And as someone else mentioned, some guns are easier to point shoot with. Like the j frame. It was designed to be such a gun and it does very well in that role.

Conversely, I've seen people that could point shoot very well with a j frame out to ten yards. But could not with aimed fire with the same gun.

Bull!

IDPA and USPSA are competition, and you can see point shooting in action at any level II or higher match.

Some police training requires using sights at all distances, which may be great for a SWAT team going in with weapons drawn and pointed, but individual shooters required to defend themselves from a surprise attack need a full set of shooting tools in hand to survive. Point shooting up close, front sight flash picture at middle distance, and full sight picture at longer distance, usually when behind cover.
Training selected should be appropriate to the type of defense skills needed, which is why I recommend the NRA Personal Defense courses for the average CHL carrier. Going to a hotshot course and being impressed by super shooters when you barely know how to hold the gun is a waste of money, and you don't learn much you can use, IMHO.

I find it easier to teach than the "flash sight picture" using only the front sight. When a newbie starts looking at the sights, he tends to stare and stare long after he should have pulled the trigger. Most people understand that at "front door distance" you have to just look at the target and pull the trigger right now. Point shooting consistently at distances beyond 10 feet does require a lot of practice to build confidence and consistency.

Point shooting is something of a specialty with me, and I even include a brief intro to it in First Steps, having the student fire two quick shots at 5 ft range and surprise themselves with center hits. In USPSA I sometimes catch myself point shooting out past 10yds when I should really start using the front sight!

__________________
Science plus Art

This one really hits it on the head. You never know when or how it will come.

A calm alertness.

Adapt and overcome

Something about old west style guns.....My Blackhawk almost touches my knee, everytime you bring it up from your side (aiming at your 03:00 or 09:00) that thing just seems to find the target itself.

Nothing for points but I'd bet my life on that 357

Point and shoot is the way to go, but you should also be proficient with sights. usually a shoot out is less than 10 feet.

The main thing is to use one carry weapon, which you are totally familiar with. I don't believe that carrying a revolver one day and a semi auto another day is a good idea at all, but I gather that most people switch up weapons all the time. It is not conducive to point and shoot. You need to develop muscle memory for the tool that you carry.

To the op you are doing the right thing. Don't let the"expert" instructors who have never been there or done that tell you different.

On the upside, paper targets never shoot back.

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Fidelis Ad Mortem

If a criminal is holding a gun to my childs head at 10m, I 'm not going to be point shooting.

If a criminal is running at me with a 10" butcher knife from a few feet away, I'm not going to be looking for that front sight.

You better be good at both...

__________________
Centennial Every Day

If you want to learn good point shooting, read what Bill Jordan had to say about it. The whole purpose is speed, and the shot will need to be taken as soon as the gun clears the holster. Crouching and locking the arm straight out will take as much time as a good shooter needs to bring the gun up to eye level and use the sights.

Point shooting certainly has its place, but so do accuracy and proper trigger control.

Dave Sinko

Agree 100%. Pick one handgun and stay with it. Muscle memory is everything. When your pistol becomes an extention of your arm, it will save your life. Practice, Practice, Practice!

Question, I was watching this training session. Is this guy taking a very long time to fire at such close ranges? And is he jabbing his pistol exactly like Applegate says not to? It's looking to me like the term "point shoot" is very loosely interpreted by everyone but Applegate who is very clear, simple and precise.

Trea Israeli Point Shoot Training Krav Maga Houston Computer - YouTube

I'm no expert, and I'm sure there will be people who disagree with me, but to me point shooting means using a body index for aiming rather than a visual index. That means using your body as a way of lining up the gun to the target. I've never really considered Applegate's method, with the arm extended, as "true" point shooting as the gun is likely to be within your field of view. While your focus is on the target, it is still possible to get your gun at least roughly aligned visually; that's how I shoot when I have the gun extended like that. However, that's based on footage I've seen regarding the Applegate method.

As to the video, I wouldn't consider that point shooting. To me it looks pretty obvious that the shooter is visually aiming the gun, even if he may not necessarily be aiming with his sights. He does appear to be taking his time, but I don't know how much precision he's going for in his shooting.

That's aside from what looks like the shooter fumbling with the manual safety.

Thanks CO, I think the specific things that puzzled me was the demonstrations of what happens when you thrust a pistol forward like that, the barrel and point of aim dip down. Reason why they prefer you raise the barrel upward and shoot as soon as the gun comes up to the target with no hesitation. Or very very little. And he uses two hands even at super close distances. I guess I'm in your boat. Maybe I'm no expert, which might be a good thing, because that doesn't look like the right way to train your body since in a panic you will "really" be pushing that gun down and wont have a free hand to open doors, hold a flashlight, push or use for balance. I'm finding that using that left hand for balance in my crouch and one arm, I'm much more accurate and honestly already dramatically quicker delivery than this student is showing with this triangle two hand, jabbing, technique.

From my simple understanding the Applegate one arm method is the same as that square stance triangle he is using but only with the left hand removed. And I thought the most effective way was only bringing the left hand up and into the firing hand after you find yourself back at a certain distance 15-20 feet. Then at about 30 feet maybe begin to gain your composure more and transition to weaver sighted type of shooting.

At the distance this student has two hands completely extended and only 2-3 feet from the target, it seems they are very vulnerable to the attacker reaching the gun, or even dropping down lower and shooting from the hip and literally clobbering this guy.

I'm no rocket science but it seems like there is a lot of instruction on the web that is less effective than it could be. Or at least these seem to break a lot of fundamentals Applegate really stresses, even up to the 1998 presentation I may have referenced, which lays this stuff out masterfully.

Hey this is the time to think and analyze and I know this is nit picking a little, but the devil IS in the details.

When I attended CQB School w/ 1st Group, the entire first week was spent in learning effective point shooting by participating in "dot drills". 9 three-inch dots of different colors on a target. Your command to fire was the Range Instructor calling the color dot you were supposed to hit, e.g. "Green!". If a color was called that wasn't on the target, you didn't fire. Eventually you started with your back to the target, color was called, and you turned and shot. The target was rotated every time so you couldn't memorize the location of the colors. If the shooter is tracking the front sight through recoil, the shooter is focusing on the sight instead of the target. That might be okay in competition shooting where the target is a piece of paper, but in the "competitions" I've been involved in, the targets were trying to kill me. I like to keep my focus on them. Point shooting remains a VERY viable method of engaging targets. "A" method, not "THE" method. There is no such thing as THE method.

As a poice fireamrs instructor and someone who has been involved in conflicts in some nasty parts of the world, I can tell You that point shooting is a VERY important skill to have.

1). Reactive , defensive shooting will almost always start VERY close. Point shooting will be the way to go .

2).In case things turn into a firefight, You will need to know how to do both.

Learning pont shooting is just as important as learning to use sights.

ALSO. Shooting with one hand is just as important as shooting with both hands on the gun.

That "crab walking" stuff cracks me up!

Point shooting is, in the most simple definition, any time you are focusing on the target and not the gun. There are various degrees of peripheral indexing to the gun, but if you are focusing on the target (which 98% of people will in a gunfight), you are using point shooting whether you know how to or not. That's why the statistics of police shootings are so dramatic regarding the number of missed shots. They have traditionally be taught sighted shooting but then find themselves point shooting in gunfights and missing.

It's an interesting subject. Lots of fun to do and most people can get pretty good at it out to ten meters or so.

p.s. The guy in the video is not fumbling the safety, he's racking the slide. The old Israeli style of shooting required carrying with an empty chamber. It's no longer the way they do things now that they've, more or less, standardized their sidearms to the Glock platform.

__________________
Centennial Every Day

Several times at work , we did an "Active Shooter" exersise.
A team had go and look for an active shooter. The TEAM was on the offensive. THE SIGHTS WERE USED. The distance was longer and they were LOOKING for the target.

In a defensive , reactive shooting, You will not have to react to something 25 or 50 yards away. It will be close and FAST.

Being able to draw and fire and hit something REALLY fast is what You would need to do. Draw , point , shoot.

If Your threat takes cover and makes distance , then You will be using Your sights.

This is from experience......

You guys are pretty awesome, very mature people it seems. I really am learning a lot. So at the range today I was limited in how much I can drill but I did single then double point shoot drills at 10 feet, then tried 4 zipper shots up the middle about 5 times. Then I began backing the target. For me, not being as professionally trained, I transitioned to a weaver stance at about 20 feet or so. My results were pretty good today but not as cocky good as my last time out. I was definitely hitting the man target in the middle but not quite the vertical stripe I thought I would have. On the sight shooting I was actually able to get very good accuracy even making me confident to get more head shots. Shooting the 357 in the snubby LCR was really torturing me so I'm thinking about backing down to 38 special 158 grain which I can shoot dead on, and not low.

I'm getting there but today humbled me back down a notch. I need to work on everything.. MORE. Thanks again all. I'm going to hit the donate button and try to support the site better. I'm also going to back off on my posts for a little while and work on this advice given. More reports when I begin seeing improvement worth noting.

I re-watched the video. What I saw was not him racking the slide but manipulating the thumb safety. He does it twice, the first time right after he racks the slide at the beginning of the video. I think the second time happened at around 0:14-0:16. Though I admit he may have just been making sure the safety was off. I couldn't see clearly enough to determine if he tried to fire, failed, then manipulated the safety.

Thought I'd put some numbers in this just for the heck of it.
One of the drills I do is to have two paper plates set up about 3 yards apart with me standing somewhere between 3 and 5 yards from the slightly closer target. When my timer beeps me I draw from concealment and fire one shot into each plate as quickly as possible, and still be reasonably sure of hitting the target. I've been doing this using both hands and getting a flash sight picture using the front sight. I repeat this until I've fired 20 rounds.

The first time I tried this my average time for my first shot was 2.29 seconds and the second shot was 3.05 seconds.

The previous last two times gave these timings:
first shot average 1.99 and 1.96
2nd shot average 2.72 and 2.85

Today I went out and did the drill, this time using only my strong hand and pointing with no sight picture. I hadn't shot this way in years exept when playing with my SA .22. My times were:
first shot average 1.73
2nd shot average 2.68

So I trimmed a couple of tenths of a second off of my first shot and slightly improved my second. I guess harder to recover from recoil using only one hand. Another thing to consider is that up to now I've just stood there waiting for the timer. Today I was scanning the ground for fired brass so actually had to look up and find my target after the timer. A bit more realistic as to being surprised.

What is most interesting is that when pushing for speed I generally miss a couple of shots. Didn't miss any this time. In fact my groups on each target were slightly smaller than usual. I think I'm going to have to add this to my routine, specially since I won't have to worry about having enough light to use my sights at night.

I sure wouldn't shoot this way if in a match but I think it is a very viable method.

OK! I see what you're talking about now. He is definitely manipulating the thumb safety.

Also, I have no clue what the idea is behind that crab stance jazz they are doing but it looks like a sure way to get yourself shot. Move in a natural manner! Shoot fast, with or without sights depending on the distance to your adversary. Very dynamic stuff.

Point Shooting Progressions DVD Preview with Roger Phillips - YouTube

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Centennial Every Day

One video that kinda sums it up as well.

Survival Point shooting - YouTube

One video that kinda sums it up as well. And lays down some facts that are hard to ignore.

Survival Point shooting - YouTube

Using your middle finger to work the trigger? That's goofy and over-complicating the subject.

If you use a gun that doesn't fit your hand well, that method is not going to work worth a flip. You can try it with some of your guns and see. Grip the gun, and with your eyes closed, point to an object with your gunhand index finger. Now, open your eyes and you'll see that the axis of the bore and the index finger are often at very divergent angles.

__________________
Centennial Every Day

I agree, the middle finger idea is strangle to say the least. May work but I shoot wheelguns too often to work on it.

As to finger angle, at the range point shooting should be used it isn't that bad but as you say, some guns to present that problem. Some guns, like my 3rd gen work quite well, at least for my hands. I'm sure it is different for each person.

This is probably the most critical feature for point shooting, you have to train with a specific firearm or platform that has common pointing characteristics. Quite simply you have to know how YOUR gun points in YOUR hand AT AN INSTINCTIVE LEVEL. It's why I only carry one gun. It's also why all of my handguns have very similar pointing characteristics.

Now, about "point shooting". My reading has led me to believe that this definition is much too broad and we shooters really need to come up with some clear terms that describe various form of point shooting. Quite simply, shooting from the hip is NOT the same as shooting with your arm extended.

If you arm is extended I think it's best to describe this as Target Focused shooting and I can testify from experience that there is little to no loss in accuracy when using Target Focused shooting. However, if you train in this method, in time you'll find there is a big gain in your rate of fire. With Target focused shooting you focus on one point on the target and use what can be seen in your perpheral vision and in the line of sight as a guide to pointing the gun. Now for why this can improve your rate of fire. If you focus on the front sight you will instinctively chase that sight when the gun recoils. This means that as you bring the gun back to target you also have to find the target point. Finding that target point takes TIME. It can take enough time that an opponent might possibly fire 5 shots to your one. The way I was trained, you pick a spot on the target, focus only on that spot, and when the gun seems in line you pull the trigger and repeat. Try it sometime and you'll be very suprized at how quickly you gain in speed with little effect on accuracy. In my case it took just 1/2 hour of training and I cut my split times in half and didn't increase group size at all.

With a moderate amount of practice this method is good enough to hold to 5 inches or less at 30 feet with a split time ranging between 3/10 and 1/2 second. I've also found that the more range time I put in, the faster I can shoot while maintaining acceptable Combat accuracy.

The second type of point shooting is what I would suggest be called Index Shooting. That is either shooting from the hip or from close retention. Personally, I don't think this is a good method for anything more than near contact distances. While there have been, and are now shooters who can hip shoot a small target at distance, the single common feature of those shooters is that they have expended 10's of thousands of rounds downrange gaining that skill. IMO what's being taught today just won't work well in a real life setting at more than 5 to 10 feet. What is being taught is to position the gun against your body in a specific "index" position. This means that you have to assume a VERY specific posture and foot placement to "index" that gun. That aint gonna happen in Combat because you'll be moving. IMO, If you are facing an opponent within 10 feet, forget about indexing and rely on instinct to shoot from the hip, then move for seperation while using the recoil to assist in bringing the gun up to an extended position. If you really know how your handgun points you should be able to hit the body at 10 feet, however with most pistols today that shot will be lower than expected. Todays handguns don't have enough rake angle on the grip for natual hip shooting unless you've practiced a LOT. BTW, the old P-08 Luger had enough rake to the grip that it was a very natural hip level pointer, so do revolvers with a grip adaptor. Glocks are also sort of good hip pointers. However, good hip shooters require more practice for accuracy in an extended position because they tend to "point" high.

Now for how to determine if a particular gun "points" for you. In the extended postion it's very easy to do. Unload the gun, triple check that it's unloaded with nothing in the chamber, then pick a target point somewhere in your peripheral vision. Without looking at that target point aim the gun at that point. Then turn your head without moving the gun and look at where it is sighted. Then look at a target point, close your eyes and aim at that target point, then open your eyes and check where it's sighted. If in both cases you find it's sighted nearly dead on, you have a "natural pointer" in your hand. If it's off a bit and you want to keep that gun, repeat these exercizes as you learn how to compensate for a minor fault in point. In most cases the fault will either be high or low. If you find you are pointing left or right, changing to a grip with a smaller or larger circumference can help bring it on center. Practice can also help correct for a minor defect in windage pointing, however if it's severe you may want to consider shopping for a gun that has a wider or narrower grip.

For hip level pointing it gets a bit more complicated. Ideally you find a range that allows you to practice hip shooting. Bad news is those ranges are few and far between. Second best answer is to purchase a laser bore sight and put it in the barrel with a touch of tape to hold it there as you move the gun. Then close your eyes, aim at a target point, open your eyes and see where it's pointed. Keep practicing with this and you can learn how to point well from the hip. NOTE, make sure you remove that bore sight after EVERY practice session, forget it just once and you'll blow up your gun.

Survival Point shooting - YouTube

I would like to see that done with a baby Browning or a vest pocket Colt. Larry

I made friends with a interesting fellow at my gun club. By interesting, I mean he was in the special forces of another nations armed service. He exposed me to point shooting. Amazing what he could do at short range with just about any pistol. Now when I go to the range I always try to work in some point shooting practice. I have to do it on the sly as the RO's don't really appreciate the style.

Out
West

Instead of a laser bore sighter do a google search for SureStrike Laser Training Bullet. Midway also has them. When the firing pin strikes the bullet it emits a short laser beam which is recorded on a target. Expensive in the the system cost about $150 but would be a great training aid for point shooting.

Way back when before guns were taboo I had a toy 1911 that shot a beam of light when the trigger was pulled. It came with a target with a light sensor. The opening was about an inch in diameter and when the light hit it the target would ring a bell. It only worked at across the room distances, which is plenty good for defense shooting, I soon got to where I didn't have to use the the sights to hit is almost everytime. I think that is why I can shoot 1911 or guns with the same grip angle by point shooting so well.

Wish they were still available as they were much cheaper than the laser bullets.

Yes, there is absolutely nothing practical, tactical, or even acceptable about that shooting "method". That type of grip takes every good attribute about a proper grip and flushes it down the toilet. It is nothing more than a gimmick, and seriously flawed one at that.

careful there. While point shooting may not be useful in bullseye competition, bullseye isn't the only type of competition. In action shooting (e.g., USPSA, IDPA, etc), target-focus shooting is often used by competitors for close targets.

I believe that Rob Pincus (http://www.icetraining.us/) also teaches a form of point shooting.

Here's a pic of a few targets showing the results of my gimmicky shooting. It really is as easy as just pointing your finger and pulling the trigger with your middle finger.



Usually use a new-and-different-to-me rental, and shoot as fast as I can point-n-pull the trigger. The targets at the top right and on the bottom are marked as the first strings of the day. Also, a year had gone by since my visit to the range and shooting at the target on the top right.

And I usually stick a plastic index finger rest on the frame to keep it in place and away from the slide.

I get a hoot out of watching the old TV series 'Highway Patrol' from the late fifties.

Broderick Crawford carries and shoots a snubbie and always shoots from waist level. He's routinely dropping the BG from 50+ feet away.

10-4

However, and with all due respect to MR. gravely voice:

1. If you are going to be shot and or killed, per USA statistics, there is an 80% chance that it will occur within 7 meters.

2. In a real life threat situation, due to the activation of the SNS, you will lose your near vision. so you will not be able to focus on the sights. They will be blurry.

3. And in the NYPD's study of 6000+ Police combat cases, Officers with only a few exceptions fired with the strong hand.

So, if you want to train for self defense, train at less than 7 meters, learn how to shoot without using the sights, and shoot one handed.

10-4, or per John Wayne - that is all.

Would you like for me to compare some targets from myself and others who actually hold the gun with a PROPER grip?

You are going to try to give advice on defensive pistol training yet you allow a year to go by between your trips to the range? Sorry, but that doesn't do much for your credibility.

LOL! Yeah, this right here pretty much says it all. Any shooting style that requires the shooter to install a specialized "finger rest" on the gun just so it can be operated is NOT practical and certainly not conducive to use under severe stress. Again, this is nothing more than a gimmick, and a dangerous one at that. Your vulnerability to disarming attempts with this type of grip are exponentially higher than with a proper grip on the gun.