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  #1  
Old 10-22-2011, 04:36 PM
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Default State of Tennessee is changing HCP

Now you can qualify in Tennessee on a 30 foot range it used to be that you had to qualify for a Handgun Catty Permit by shooting at 3 7 and 15 yards but now the law has been modified to less, and at the moment I can not give the new requirements a 30' range seems to be adequate for qualifying for what they call a Handgun Carry Permit !

In Tennessee a Handgun Carry Permit is good for carrying a handgun on your person either open carry or concealed carry. If pulled over you must let the LEO know that you have a permit and if armed the location of the firearm.

I practice at a 30 range several times a week since it is within 3 miles of my home and this new law is great, although I guess now there will be more people at the range and classes crowding the range but still it is good news!
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  #2  
Old 10-22-2011, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Houdini1953 View Post
If pulled over you must let the LEO know that you have a permit and if armed the location of the firearm.
This part isn't correct. If asked, you must provide your permit, but you're not required to show it before they ask.

(n) (1) Except as provided in subdivision (n)(2), a permit issued pursuant to this section shall be good for four (4) years and shall entitle the permit holder to carry any handgun or handguns that the permit holder legally owns or possesses. The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer.
  #3  
Old 10-23-2011, 09:10 AM
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Like Dixie said.

I never inform LEOs during traffic stops or other casual encounters that I have a handgun if I'm in a state that doesn't require it of me.

After all, according to the various agencies that oversee and approve Tennessee HCPs, I'm a responsible and law-abiding citizen; and one entrusted with legally carrying a firearm...
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Nimble, Jack B. View Post
Like Dixie said.

I never inform LEOs during traffic stops or other casual encounters that I have a handgun if I'm in a state that doesn't require it of me.

After all, according to the various agencies that oversee and approve Tennessee HCPs, I'm a responsible and law-abiding citizen; and one entrusted with legally carrying a firearm...
YES YOU ARE A RESPONSIBLE AND LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN, BUT I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT A GREAT CITIZEN you are, if I detect your weapon on a stop, I just know someone I've pulled over has a weapon, no more at that point, because you didn't tell me.

In the last three days alone, an officer in Sacramento, CA and an officer in Augusta, GA were shot making stops. The guy in Sacramento is critical but expected to survive, the deputy in GA is dead. While violent crimes are down in general, violent crimes and death against officers are on close to a record pace in 2011.

I assure you I'm not baiting for an argument. But if I stop you, (and in my state you don't have to inform me) and you don't tell me in advance you're carrying, then I subsequently notice you are carrying , and if you have ready access to the weapon, officer safety protocol will be followed, and in the end it certainly would have been easier in the first place just to have let me know while presenting your TN carry credentials. I will respect your rights in any and every way I can within the context of my own or other's safety.

Last edited by dwever; 10-24-2011 at 12:34 AM.
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by dwever View Post
YES YOU ARE A RESPONSIBLE AND LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN, BUT I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT A GREAT CITIZEN you are, if I detect your weapon on a stop, I just know someone I've pulled over has a weapon, no more at that point, because you didn't tell me.

In the last three days alone, an officer in Sacramento, CA and an officer in Augusta, GA were shot making stops. The guy in Sacramento is critical but expected to survive, the deputy in GA is dead. While violent crimes are down in general, violent crimes and death against officers are on close to a record pace in 2011.

I assure you I'm not baiting for an argument. But if I stop you, (and in my state you don't have to inform me) and you don't tell me in advance you're carrying, then I subsequently notice you are carrying , and if you have ready access to the weapon, officer safety protocol will be followed, and in the end it certainly would have been easier in the first place just to have let me know while presenting your TN carry credentials. I will respect your rights in any and every way I can within the context of my own or other's safety.
One can expect no less of you in a situation like that. I keep my permit right behind my drivers license and both come out at the same time. I've only had this be an issue once at a dwi checkpoint, officer asked if I was carrying, advised yes and where. He thanked me and requested that I keep my hands on the steering wheel at all times. That was that.
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dwever View Post
YES YOU ARE A RESPONSIBLE AND LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN, BUT I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT A GREAT CITIZEN you are, if I detect your weapon on a stop, I just know someone I've pulled over has a weapon, no more at that point, because you didn't tell me.

In the last three days alone, an officer in Sacramento, CA and an officer in Augusta, GA were shot making stops. The guy in Sacramento is critical but expected to survive, the deputy in GA is dead. While violent crimes are down in general, violent crimes and death against officers are on close to a record pace in 2011.

I assure you I'm not baiting for an argument. But if I stop you, (and in my state you don't have to inform me) and you don't tell me in advance you're carrying, then I subsequently notice you are carrying , and if you have ready access to the weapon, officer safety protocol will be followed, and in the end it certainly would have been easier in the first place just to have let me know while presenting your TN carry credentials. I will respect your rights in any and every way I can within the context of my own or other's safety.
Sorry, you do seem to be baiting for an argument. Your logic escapes me, and this is a lot like bullying to me. You state the law, then state YOUR law, which disregards the state law you swore to uphold. If the state of AL thought that legal gun owners should notify you that they owned or possessed a gun, I'm sure it would be a law. It isn't. And aren't you sworn to uphold the law?

And what is "Officer Safety Protocol" to you? I bet part of that is separating me from my vehicle and then separating me from my firearm while you take care of your business.

Which then is more safe - me sitting in my vehicle with my quietly undetected legal firearm safely in my holster or compartment while you take care of your business, or both of us handling a weapon - perhaps a strange one to you - in public?

Who assaulted and those officers? Were they assaulted by law-abiding, licensed (or permitted) legally carrying citizens? Do you think that because one has a license or permit to carry, obtained legally, and possesses a gun, obtained legally, they are suddenly transformed into a lethal threat to law enforcement?? This is what you just said.

The 2nd amendment says I can bear arms; despite some infringement the laws of your state and mine say I can bear arms; your own driver's license database apparently in some manner associates either legal gun ownership or the permit system with the driver's license. It likely does not list the bad guys and their illegal gun ownership, or out of state legal gun-owning drivers, which it seems are the same to you. Seems to me if my name were to pop up you should be more relaxed knowing you are taking care of your business with a law-abiding citizen who is a zero threat to you, but your own feelings about citizen gun ownership seem to get in the way of this.

I carry concealed so I don't have to deal with public discussions about it.



On topic, I believe gun ownership has some responsibility attached - to be familiar with good handling and storage practices, knowing the laws, etc. Carrying for self defense carries even more responsibility, including ammunition knowledge, physical practice and mental preparation for certain types of scenarios, however unlikely one thinks they may occur. One should practice, and if you show yourself some amount of proficiency, try to do better. If you don't or can't show proficiency, one should get some training.

I am getting pretty good at punching holes in paper at 0-7 yards from different (but not every possible) self-defense type positions. Drawing from concealment, I can get two on the paper plate in 2 seconds, about 90% of the time. I have tried 10 yards a couple of times, and I don't know the exact requirement in TN, but I am not sure I'd pass that 10 yard test yet.
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Old 10-24-2011, 04:32 PM
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if I detect your weapon on a stop, I just know someone I've pulled over has a weapon, no more at that point, because you didn't tell me.

If you detect a weapon then inquire about it. That was easy.


But if I stop you, (and in my state you don't have to inform me) and you don't tell me in advance you're carrying, then I subsequently notice you are carrying

I don't know how you would know I'm carrying a weapon as it is concealed, but even as such, if something is amiss and you ask me to step out of the car, I'm going to say, 'Officer I have a permit to carry a weapon and I have a weapon on my person now. What would you like me to do?' That is when I feel it would be appropriate to mention I have a gun. You are removing me from a place that the gun is secure, and possibly exposing the gun. Now you can deal with it however you would like.


I will respect your rights in any and every way I can within the context of my own or other's safety.
Respecting rights includes respecting my right to NOT disclose to you that I have a weapon. That is the law!

This attitude that a cop is in danger because a permitted person is carrying a gun is ridiculous. Knowing I have a gun on me won't impact a traffic stop for a speeding ticket or a light out. All it could possibly do is get the cop excited about nothing.
Can you imagine the thousands of stops every day where the driver has a gun and the cop never knows?

Just because I carry concealed doesn't make me a bad guy!
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:20 PM
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You say, "This attitude that a cop is in danger because a permitted person is carrying a gun is ridiculous." I DON'T KNOW YOU'RE PERMITTED, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!!! Your giving me an attitude based on information I don't have?

If you've not said a word to me or presented credentials, fine, that is your right as Martya calmly points out. But then if I detect your weapon, you are forcing me into temporarily treating you like a threat until I figure out what's going on when you could of easily just disclosed at the start.

I want to cooperate and uphold your rights and laws. At the same time, you must appreciate that if you have kept me in the dark, which you can legally do, I must operate out of what you have not told me, which I can legally do, and it is unreasonable by you to expect me to treat you as a permit holder if you've never disclosed you have a permit! There's no crystal ball on my duty belt.

If you don't want to tell me fine. Just don't flip out on me or flame me on forums when I try not to become one of the 57,000 plus officers who are assaulted annually.*

Anyway, bear in mind, this is a situation for both of us where different rights come into contact. Your right to bear arms and conceal and not disclose (which I will defend by the way). And my right to reasonably protect my safety and other's. So, through legislation and years of case-law, officer's boundaries are fairly well defined and established, and we are trained every year on what those laws mean as a matter of conduct regarding our actions on the streets, so we don't compromise your rights or take unreasonable risk to our safety.

*In 2009, the FBI reports that 57,268 officers were assaulted while performing their duties. This number obviously includes all attacks, not just those with firearms. Officers Assaulted - Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted, 2009

Last edited by dwever; 10-24-2011 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:51 PM
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Dweaver has got it right. Officer spots a weapon, he automatically goes into a defensive posture. More officers are killed during traffic stops than any other circumstance. The difference between rights and common sense doesn't enter into the picture.

I have a heavy foot and tend to get stopped occasionally. The FIRST thing I do after pulling over, is place both hands out of the window and announce I AM ARMED.

Rights or not, in today's world ( and yesterdays ), an unknown stranger with a weapon is an immediate threat to an officer until proven differently.

Who would you like to see fighting for your rights in a lawsuit, you or your widow, or anybody else besides you?
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:52 PM
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Dweaver has got it right. Officer spots a weapon, he automatically goes into a defensive posture. More officers are killed during traffic stops than any other circumstance. The difference between rights and common sense doesn't enter into the picture.

I have a heavy foot and tend to get stopped occasionally. The FIRST thing I do after pulling over, is place both hands out of the window and announce I AM ARMED.

Rights or not, in today's world ( and yesterdays ), an unknown stranger with a weapon is an immediate threat to an officer until proven differently.

Who would you like to see fighting for your rights in a lawsuit, you or your widow, or anybody else besides you?
Never mind.
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Old 10-25-2011, 12:26 AM
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Never mind.
Perhaps if you had ever been on the other side of the situation you would feel differently. While I have never been on the job as a civilian, I was during my time in the military. Just having the badge on your bdu's walking into the gas station makes you a target. The bad guy don't care if you military or not all they see is the badge. You'd be surprised at some of the collars I made while in the military. It ran the gambit from drug busts out of the enlisted clubs, sexual assault, hate crimes, thefts, etc. Both military personnel and civilian because MWR just had to have the clubs open to the public for more money.
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Old 10-25-2011, 09:36 AM
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You say, "This attitude that a cop is in danger because a permitted person is carrying a gun is ridiculous." I DON'T KNOW YOU'RE PERMITTED, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!!! Your giving me an attitude based on information I don't have?

If you've not said a word to me or presented credentials, fine, that is your right as Martya calmly points out. But then if I detect your weapon, you are forcing me into temporarily treating you like a threat until I figure out what's going on when you could of easily just disclosed at the start.
Maybe we have to think about HOW you would detect a gun on me. If I am sitting in my car with my hands on the wheel and you see a gun butt, are you going to freak out and pull your weapon while screaming like a little girl or are you going to say "Is that a weapon, and are you licensed?"

Big difference there. So if you see a gun, and you know 25,000 people are licensed to carry guns in your state, why in the world would it be a major issue?

Now if I pulled that gun out and pointed it at you and told you to drop your pants, okay, now you have an issue! No different though if I am licensed or not! You now have a threat. Now you should be excited.
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Old 10-25-2011, 11:15 AM
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I totally believe in my right to carry and my right to tell whomever I wish. But in this case the argument should not be about 'rights', but about common sense and safety combined. A police officer is doing his job, he has every right to be concerned if he is surprised by a weapon showing. I have every right to keep it concealed. But it seems to me as a caring human being, that it would suit us BOTH best to simpply say "I have a permit and I'm armed, what do wyou want me to do?' I went to extra troiuble to find a wallet with 3 windows for ID. Drivers license, work ID and CCP are readily viewable. Now, the problem is you have young, aggressive cops that are gungho, and looking for a fight. I'm still going to make us both safer by warning the officer- and if he takes my pistol, violates my rights, I'll pursue it appropriately later. Two men with loaded guns- not a good time to say 'You can't do that!! I have my rights!..' anything. IMHO
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Old 10-25-2011, 02:49 PM
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are you going to freak out and pull your weapon while screaming like a little girl or are you going to say "Is that a weapon, and are you licensed?" Big difference there.
Wow. Is that illustration worded like that really necessary to your point? Anyway, I don't choose how to respond, I follow a pre-established course of action. I use a tone of voice that is measured, audible for the environment, and deliberate and does not escalate emotions. Beyond that I would be remiss in discussing tactics, but I can tell you I do NOT automatically draw my weapon.

Look, probably the best thing someone could do to understand LE's concerns would be to read some incident narratives from officers being shot approaching vehicles. I was in Florida for training May 2010 and I had one guy from a large metro agency tell me they've had so many incidents they clear their holster retention devices and partially draw initially at every stop. I don't know anyone "looking for a fight." But officer's lives depend on being prepared for one that is brought to them.

Anyway, I agree to disagree, and I will follow our law-based policies to the very best of my abilities, and guard your rights and your safety in any and every way I can without compromising my or other's safety.

My final post on this thread respectfully submitted.

Last edited by dwever; 10-25-2011 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 10-25-2011, 02:56 PM
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Wow. Is that illustration worded like that really necessary to your point? Anyway, I don't choose how to respond, I follow a pre-established course of action. I use a tone of voice that is measured, audible for the environment, and deliberate and does not escalate emotions. Beyond that I would be remiss in discussing tactics, but I can tell you I do NOT automatically draw my weapon.

Look, probably the best thing someone could do to understand LE's concerns would be to read some incident narratives from officers being shot approaching vehicles. I was in Florida for training May 2010 and I had one guy from a large metro agency tell me they've had so many incidents they clear their holster retention devices and partially draw initially at every stop. I don't know anyone "looking for a fight." But officer's lives depend on being prepared for one that is brought to them.

Anyway, I agree to disagree, and I will follow our law-based policies to the very best of my abilities, and guard your rights and your safety in any and every way I can without compromising my or other's safety.

My final post on this thread respectfully submitted.
Correct response, good for you, and all " professional " officers.
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Old 10-25-2011, 02:59 PM
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YES YOU ARE A RESPONSIBLE AND LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN, BUT I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT A GREAT CITIZEN you are, if I detect your weapon on a stop, I just know someone I've pulled over has a weapon, no more at that point, because you didn't tell me.

In the last three days alone, an officer in Sacramento, CA and an officer in Augusta, GA were shot making stops. The guy in Sacramento is critical but expected to survive, the deputy in GA is dead. While violent crimes are down in general, violent crimes and death against officers are on close to a record pace in 2011.

I assure you I'm not baiting for an argument. But if I stop you, (and in my state you don't have to inform me) and you don't tell me in advance you're carrying, then I subsequently notice you are carrying , and if you have ready access to the weapon, officer safety protocol will be followed, and in the end it certainly would have been easier in the first place just to have let me know while presenting your TN carry credentials. I will respect your rights in any and every way I can within the context of my own or other's safety.
I'm sorry, but I seemed to have missed the part where the two officers were shot by citizens with valid permits.

Frankly, and no offense intended, but LEOs like you scare me.
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Old 10-25-2011, 03:48 PM
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dwever, I am trying to get you to tell me about any possible situation where a licensed carrying individual can become any safer because he told you he has a permit.

The fact that you are told someone has a permit does NOT make the situation safer.

In my humble opinion, and I'm really going to catch some hell for saying this, what it does is satisfy the need that some LEO's have to prove they are better than the public. They think they have the RIGHT to know, so THEY can decide what to do to make the situation safe.

Well the citizen in that car has decided he wants to make himself safer and has taken steps to do so, he probably doesn't want some cop flying off the handle or getting jumpy just because he has a .38 stuffed under the seat.

I can tell you dwever, and I'm not picking on you specifically - you just happen to be handy here - I see a LOT of citizen videos where cops fly off the handle and create a dangerous situation when they find out someone has a gun, even when that gun is legally carried.

So I have some questions.
1. How could knowing someone is legally carrying a weapon make a routine stop safer than if the officer never knew it was there? It never shows, never comes out, never is a factor.
2. Do you ask before you take someone out of a car if they have any weapons?
3. Do you think card carrying gun possessors are more dangerous than the general public? Is that why you want to know if someone has a card? (I think statistics prove the opposite. )
4. If someone is stopped for a minor infraction and they are calm with hands on the wheel and they are just normal good people, when that person tells you they have a permit and are carrying just what do you do differently?

I know around here every cop approaches with his hand on his weapon, stays behind the car door, asks if there are any weapons in the vehicle, and takes all the precautions any smart cop will take... And we don't even have permits in Wisconsin! I would think in the other 48 states, cops would be more likely to expect a weapon in a vehicle or on a person.

So maybe I am wrong, but considering there are good guys and bad guys, and either can be packing, only one of those would tell you they have a gun. And that one is NOT the one you need to worry about.
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Old 10-25-2011, 03:53 PM
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In my humble opinion, and I'm really going to catch some hell for saying this, what it does is satisfy the need that some LEO's have to prove they are better than the public. They think they have the RIGHT to know, so THEY can decide what to do to make the situation safe.
I'm sooo glad you finally verified what most of us already knew.
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Old 10-25-2011, 04:02 PM
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I'm sooo glad you finally verified what most of us already knew.
Ouch... Sarcasm... It burns....

I'm not a cop, but I know some pretty well. And some are like that, and I know you know that! Not saying anyone here is, I don't know you guys, but you all seem like really good folks...

If I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit it, but ya gotta show me the benefit of knowing when a trusted, verified, law abiding citizen will enhance the situation by letting Joe-first-day-on-the-beat know he has a loaded .38 safely tucked away under the seat.
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Old 10-25-2011, 05:25 PM
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I'm not a cop, but I know some pretty well. And some are like that, and I know you know that! Not saying anyone here is, I don't know you guys, but you all seem like really good folks...
I worked Internal Affairs for two years, most officers can't stand you, even though they realize your needed. I have arrested officers, never pleasant...

But if one were to read your posts, and only your posts, not knowing the subject matter, their first thoughts would be..wow, this guy hates authority figures, in particular..cops.

Yes, there are bad cops..priests...politicians..,relatives and in every other aspect of humanity. But if everyone thought like you, at least the way you express yourself, it would be a very bitter world indeed.

I've come to the conclusion, maybe wrong, that you have a personal-not yet divulged, reason for your disdain for the police. To lump us all into a singular category, and go at us with both feet extended, will not help with your personal issues with the police.

Something, back-when, created your current opinion of the police ( and I say current, because I don't believe it has to stay that way ). You need to wash yourself of whatever soured you, and start all over again.

It's like carrying around the ol ball and chain, it'll wear you out eventually.
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Old 10-25-2011, 07:12 PM
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But if one were to read your posts, and only your posts, not knowing the subject matter, their first thoughts would be..wow, this guy hates authority figures, in particular..cops.

if everyone thought like you, at least the way you express yourself, it would be a very bitter world indeed.

I've come to the conclusion, maybe wrong, that you have a personal-not yet divulged, reason for your disdain for the police.
Well you probably are onto something there raven, I do challenge authority!!

And it does get me in trouble, but I can still understand and appreciate. What I can't abide is being told what to do. Hey if it's the law, I can live with it, but if you don't have the right to tell me what to do, now we have a problem.

So I guess I am challenging the sensibility of demanding all permitees declare their status 'just because it makes officer X happy'. I want to know WHY! And why should I? And I don't have to!!

You know what? I DO have a problem!!!

I have said before I would freely offer that I have a weapon on my person or in my vehicle if I felt it would make any difference at all. And I offered that if I were to be asked to leave my vehicle, at that point I would believe notice should be given and I would notify.

But to just blurt out to a cop, any cop, who knows what kind of cop is walking up to the car, and I have videos showing raging nut cases in blue that should be removed from society and set on their own little island.... Well what is the advantage of declaring a weapon to cops like that?
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Old 10-25-2011, 07:35 PM
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This really is getting old, but since the point was brought up- how many vidoes of bad cops being jerks about a carry guy being mistreated are there- and how many times have cops been shot when stopping someone? The point? I think there are a lot more bad guys shootin' cops at traffic stops, than there are bad cops screeching at permit holders.
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Old 10-25-2011, 08:26 PM
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Gentlemen,

Keep the comments and critiques focused on the subject and not at each other.
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Old 10-25-2011, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck1217 View Post
This really is getting old, but since the point was brought up- how many vidoes of bad cops being jerks about a carry guy being mistreated are there- and how many times have cops been shot when stopping someone? The point? I think there are a lot more bad guys shootin' cops at traffic stops, than there are bad cops screeching at permit holders.
Yes, but Chuck, we are talking about good guys here, not bad guys. The point is how many GOOD GUYS are causing problems for officers and how many are shooting officers....

Bad guys is a whole different issue. No bad guy is going to tell you he has a gun and plans to shoot you....
  #25  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:31 PM
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I have had a permit since I was 18 and have carried daily for the last 40 years. I used to volunteer that I was carrying but stopped after a couple years. Too much hassle from too many officers who don't know or care what the law is. If an officer spots your weapon, your not carrying it properly. If an LEO asks me to exit the vehicle or do something I feel might expose my weapon, I will then announce the fact that I am carrying. The only proper place to keep your weapon is on your person, unless your at home and it is secured. Your weapon is not secure under the seat of your locked vehicle. Most LEO's are good people but most of them are not gunny people and don't understand those of us who are. There is the rub, and I find that discretion is the better part of valor in those situations.
  #26  
Old 10-26-2011, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by dwever View Post
You say, "This attitude that a cop is in danger because a permitted person is carrying a gun is ridiculous." I DON'T KNOW YOU'RE PERMITTED, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!!! Your giving me an attitude based on information I don't have?

If you've not said a word to me or presented credentials, fine, that is your right as Martya calmly points out. But then if I detect your weapon, you are forcing me into temporarily treating you like a threat until I figure out what's going on when you could of easily just disclosed at the start.

I want to cooperate and uphold your rights and laws. At the same time, you must appreciate that if you have kept me in the dark, which you can legally do, I must operate out of what you have not told me, which I can legally do, and it is unreasonable by you to expect me to treat you as a permit holder if you've never disclosed you have a permit! There's no crystal ball on my duty belt.

If you don't want to tell me fine. Just don't flip out on me or flame me on forums when I try not to become one of the 57,000 plus officers who are assaulted annually.*

Anyway, bear in mind, this is a situation for both of us where different rights come into contact. Your right to bear arms and conceal and not disclose (which I will defend by the way). And my right to reasonably protect my safety and other's. So, through legislation and years of case-law, officer's boundaries are fairly well defined and established, and we are trained every year on what those laws mean as a matter of conduct regarding our actions on the streets, so we don't compromise your rights or take unreasonable risk to our safety.

*In 2009, the FBI reports that 57,268 officers were assaulted while performing their duties. This number obviously includes all attacks, not just those with firearms. Officers Assaulted - Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted, 2009
Couldn't you have asked from the start? If it's so important, from an officer safety standpoint, why not ask if they have a carry permit when you ask for their DL, Reg. and insurance? Would save alot of this arguing.
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:52 AM
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"Now you can qualify in Tennessee on a 30 foot range it used to be that you had to qualify for a Handgun Catty Permit by shooting at 3 7 and 15 yards but now the law has been modified to less, and at the moment I can not give the new requirements a 30' range seems to be adequate for qualifying for what they call a Handgun Carry Permit"

Not as of two weeks ago. My Wife and Daughter in Law sat in a class recently and the 3, 7 and 15 were still in effect.

Perhaps there is a change coming.
  #28  
Old 10-26-2011, 11:05 AM
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An on-topic post? Where'd THAT come from?
JK Mr. Adams, well done.
  #29  
Old 10-26-2011, 11:48 AM
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All I can say is that many officers have been shot by a person that was issued a CCW. Having a permit only means you qualified to get one and not that you will maintain the same character you had at the time of the application. One man I casually knew got his permit and within a year got two DUI and shortly afterward shot his wife in the back. It could have just as easily been an officer he shot.

Go to this link. http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwlawenforcement.pdf Each of these people were law abiding citizens..........at one time.

Last edited by oldman45; 10-26-2011 at 11:55 AM.
  #30  
Old 10-26-2011, 11:54 AM
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I want to repeat what AZretired said...

If it's that dang important to you, why don't you just ask right away?

My Lord, they ask in WI and we don't have permits (yet).
  #31  
Old 10-26-2011, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Lake View Post
I want to repeat what AZretired said...

If it's that dang important to you, why don't you just ask right away?

My Lord, they ask in WI and we don't have permits (yet).
If I am close enough to ask, the person is close enough to shoot me before I can ask. They will fair a lot better telling me as I approach.
  #32  
Old 10-26-2011, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
If I am close enough to ask, the person is close enough to shoot me before I can ask. They will fair a lot better telling me as I approach.
Oh c'mon... You usually have great posts, but this one stinks...

Do you want someone to roll down their window and start yelling back at you "I have a gun! I have a gun!"

No, you approach, keep your wits about you, and ask for license, registration and do you have any weapons? Easy, quick, and if the driver is a crazed lunatic, high on meth and straight from killing the entire neighborhood and looking for a cop to blow away to complete his initiation into the 'Satan's Demons' biker club, I'm sure he'll tell you he is armed and keep his hands at 10 and 2.

Or if he's a war hero who just saved 200 people in a cruise ship sinking on his way to pick up the Nobel Prize for humanitarian efforts and he says yes, I have a licensed firearm at my 7:00 position, then the cop can freak out and scream at the poor man for having the audacity to drive into your neighborhood and act so recklessly putting the cop's life and the lives of nearly every human on the planet at risk... (and while that seems ridiculous, we have video of that happening )

Man I just don't see the point. Please tell me again why if it's a big concern to the officer, why he can't come right out and ask if the citizen has a weapon? Even in states where a citizen HAS to offer that he has a weapon, why can't the officer just ask?

I think it has something to do with the way some officers are nowadays...

Remember back in the 70's, maybe this wasn't true everywhere, but in my little community if a guy came stumbling out of a bar, or if an officer made a pass through a tavern (which they used to do) and the officer noticed someone may have had a bit much to drink, the officer would stop the man and ask him to get a ride, or even help the man get a ride. In our little town some people actually got the cop to take them home.

But nowadays, I have seen cops watch a drunk come out of a bar, stumble around, fumble with the car lock, get in his car and sit for 10 minutes while the cop watches, then when the drunk starts the car and drives a couple of blocks, the cop hits the lights and makes the arrest.

Which is more dangerous, letting a known drunk start his car and drive down a busy street or stopping the drunk from driving in the first place?

And why the change? Maybe this is the same as demanding someone declare they have a weapon instead of just asking. I don't know...
  #33  
Old 10-27-2011, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Lake View Post
Oh c'mon... You usually have great posts, but this one stinks...

Do you want someone to roll down their window and start yelling back at you "I have a gun! I have a gun!"

No, you approach, keep your wits about you, and ask for license, registration and do you have any weapons? Easy, quick, and if the driver is a crazed lunatic, high on meth and straight from killing the entire neighborhood and looking for a cop to blow away to complete his initiation into the 'Satan's Demons' biker club, I'm sure he'll tell you he is armed and keep his hands at 10 and 2.

Or if he's a war hero who just saved 200 people in a cruise ship sinking on his way to pick up the Nobel Prize for humanitarian efforts and he says yes, I have a licensed firearm at my 7:00 position, then the cop can freak out and scream at the poor man for having the audacity to drive into your neighborhood and act so recklessly putting the cop's life and the lives of nearly every human on the planet at risk... (and while that seems ridiculous, we have video of that happening )

Man I just don't see the point. Please tell me again why if it's a big concern to the officer, why he can't come right out and ask if the citizen has a weapon? Even in states where a citizen HAS to offer that he has a weapon, why can't the officer just ask?

I think it has something to do with the way some officers are nowadays...

Remember back in the 70's, maybe this wasn't true everywhere, but in my little community if a guy came stumbling out of a bar, or if an officer made a pass through a tavern (which they used to do) and the officer noticed someone may have had a bit much to drink, the officer would stop the man and ask him to get a ride, or even help the man get a ride. In our little town some people actually got the cop to take them home.

But nowadays, I have seen cops watch a drunk come out of a bar, stumble around, fumble with the car lock, get in his car and sit for 10 minutes while the cop watches, then when the drunk starts the car and drives a couple of blocks, the cop hits the lights and makes the arrest.

Which is more dangerous, letting a known drunk start his car and drive down a busy street or stopping the drunk from driving in the first place?

And why the change? Maybe this is the same as demanding someone declare they have a weapon instead of just asking. I don't know...
Why is it that you refuse to accept any other viewpoint except your own?
  #34  
Old 10-27-2011, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
All I can say is that many officers have been shot by a person that was issued a CCW. Having a permit only means you qualified to get one and not that you will maintain the same character you had at the time of the application. One man I casually knew got his permit and within a year got two DUI and shortly afterward shot his wife in the back. It could have just as easily been an officer he shot.

Go to this link. http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwlawenforcement.pdf Each of these people were law abiding citizens..........at one time.
I'll call your CCW murderers and raise you with this list of American police officers convicted of murder: Category:American police officers convicted of murder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This list obviously doesn't include those that got away with it in the so-called course of their duties - wasn't it the police that coined the "throwdown" weapon terminology?
  #35  
Old 10-27-2011, 08:38 AM
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I would and have announced (it's the LAW here). Both hands never leave the 10 & 2 on steering wheel, drivers window down before stopping, dome light on if nighttime. Do not reach for anything and follow all the officers instructions explicitly from the start through the conclusion of the event.

I would not be afraid to ask an officer if he would feel safer handcuffing me until a resolution was reached. Some people here will probably take a high offense to that statement, but it wouldn't upset me one bit.

Everyone needs to go home safe tonight, NO ACCIDENTS PLEASE.

P.S. I always have a copy of the Ohio Attorney Generals CCW Laws booklet in my automobile, just in case someone would need to clarify something. If you travel you should have printouts of the state laws of all the states with reciprocity that you travel through, know them and respect them.
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Last edited by Moonman; 10-27-2011 at 08:50 AM. Reason: ADDED INFO
  #36  
Old 10-27-2011, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thndrchiken View Post
Why is it that you refuse to accept any other viewpoint except your own?
I am defending my ideas, and clarifying my view. I am asking others to explain their points.

This is how I understand what others believe. If you tell me the Earth is flat, I'm going to ask you how you know that. Have you seen it? I'm going to quote statistics that show it is round.

Those who believe anything at the drop of a hat are easily herded into groups we call 'sheeple'.

My point is easy to understand. If I do NOT announce I have a loaded weapon on my person, and the officer never notices it, then NOTHING detrimental has happened.

However, and we have seen documented cases of this happening right here on this forum, telling an officer you have a permit and a safely tucked away weapon can result in DIRE consequences, including the officer removing you from the car, threatening your life, extending the stop ten-fold, handcuffing you and your companions, searching through your vehicle, etc.

If the arresting officer wants to know if you are one of the millions of people that legally carry a handgun, then he should simply ask! It's just so easy!
  #37  
Old 10-27-2011, 10:04 AM
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I haven't agreed with everything from both sides or how it was presented, unfortunate that the poster that started this direction of conversation chooses to stir the pot and then leave. I would like to hear his response to some of LL's questions. As I wanted to ask these from the start.

Maybe a fresh thread with this topic needs to be started, can the Mods strain through this thread and move it and rename it?
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  #38  
Old 10-27-2011, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by turbo38gn View Post
I haven't agreed with everything from both sides or how it was presented, unfortunate that the poster that started this direction of conversation chooses to stir the pot and then leave. I would like to hear his response to some of LL's questions. As I wanted to ask these from the start.
Fair enough turbo38gn. This is an issue where I stated my position, responded a couple of times, and felt the purpose, reasons, and context of my position were adequately on record. Then I agreed to disagree.

I try to listen to other's positions and then give a thoughtful response. The axis I operate from is that discussions between disagreeing parties are either constructive or destructive. When discussions become vitriolic and shrill (including most recently FTG05's: "'ll call your CCW murderers and raise you with this list of American police officers convicted of murder." among others on both sides of the issue), that's really not, in my mind anyway, a constructive exchange of differences, not why I'm on this forum. I totally affirm FTG05's or anyone else's right to say what he wants as well as my own to step out.

Respectfully submitted

Last edited by dwever; 10-27-2011 at 11:25 AM.
  #39  
Old 10-27-2011, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by dwever View Post
YES YOU ARE A RESPONSIBLE AND LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN, BUT I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT A GREAT CITIZEN you are, if I detect your weapon on a stop, I just know someone I've pulled over has a weapon, no more at that point, because you didn't tell me.

In the last three days alone, an officer in Sacramento, CA and an officer in Augusta, GA were shot making stops. The guy in Sacramento is critical but expected to survive, the deputy in GA is dead. While violent crimes are down in general, violent crimes and death against officers are on close to a record pace in 2011.

I assure you I'm not baiting for an argument. But if I stop you, (and in my state you don't have to inform me) and you don't tell me in advance you're carrying, then I subsequently notice you are carrying , and if you have ready access to the weapon, officer safety protocol will be followed, and in the end it certainly would have been easier in the first place just to have let me know while presenting your TN carry credentials. I will respect your rights in any and every way I can within the context of my own or other's safety.
So I have the story right. If you stop me and I tell you I have a gun, you'll disarm me and run my gun etc. If I don't tell you and you somehow discover it, which is unlikely, you'll disarm me and run my numbers etc?
  #40  
Old 10-27-2011, 02:05 PM
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That's NOT remotely close to what dwever said. Period.

And I will add this: On those occasions that I detected a concealed weapon on a person who did not advise me of that aforehand...permitted or not...the subject was not at all happy with what happened next.

Be safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatt View Post
So I have the story right. If you stop me and I tell you I have a gun, you'll disarm me and run my gun etc. If I don't tell you and you somehow discover it, which is unlikely, you'll disarm me and run my numbers etc?
  #41  
Old 10-27-2011, 02:11 PM
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PS: For certain, I was never the one "screaming like a little girl" as lost lake suggested LEO's do. Doubt that any of my brother and sister LEO's were either.

Be safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
That's NOT remotely close to what dwever said. Period.

And I will add this: On those occasions that I detected a concealed weapon on a person who did not advise me of that aforehand...permitted or not...the subject was not at all happy with what happened next.

Be safe.
  #42  
Old 10-27-2011, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
That's NOT remotely close to what dwever said. Period.

And I will add this: On those occasions that I detected a concealed weapon on a person who did not advise me of that aforehand...permitted or not...the subject was not at all happy with what happened next.

Be safe.
Elaborate.
  #43  
Old 10-27-2011, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by hatt View Post
Elaborate.
Okay, where did dwever state he would disarm and run the gun of one whom advised he/she was, in fact, carrying?

Be safe.
  #44  
Old 10-27-2011, 02:53 PM
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Mr. dewever I respect your opinion and care for you safety and thank you for the job you do. Having said that I have seen many officers approach a vehicle during a routine stop with their hand on their weapon. This makes me uneasy the same as you are when you discover a weapon in a vehicle. Respect is a two way street dont you think?
  #45  
Old 10-27-2011, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
PS: For certain, I was never the one "screaming like a little girl" as lost lake suggested LEO's do. Doubt that any of my brother and sister LEO's were either.

Be safe.
So that is what we are taking offense to....

Do I need to repost the video of the Canton Ohio officer that went completely berserk when he was told the citizen had a weapon? I would say he was screaming like a little girl, and then threatening innocent citizens with death... In fact there are quite a few videos that show a similar reaction by LEO's. I'm NOT saying anyone here would react this way. This is not personal. My point is why should I take a chance that I would get a reaction like that if I don't have to?


And just what is your reaction when a law abiding citizen acts completely within his rights and you find out a bit later that he legally has a weapon on his person?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
And I will add this: On those occasions that I detected a concealed weapon on a person who did not advise me of that aforehand...permitted or not...the subject was not at all happy with what happened next.
  #46  
Old 10-27-2011, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
Okay, where did dwever state he would disarm and run the gun of one whom advised he/she was, in fact, carrying?

Be safe.
Please answer your question. Let dwever answer his questions. Why is the subject not happy with what happens next?
  #47  
Old 10-27-2011, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
That's NOT remotely close to what dwever said. Period.

And I will add this: On those occasions that I detected a concealed weapon on a person who did not advise me of that aforehand...permitted or not...the subject was not at all happy with what happened next.

Be safe.
This is where I have my questions, I side with a police officer having to protect himself first, by all means, I have the greatest respect for you and our military men and women. Before I saw this thread this morning a friend and I were talking last night about this very subject and what to do should we be stopped for a traffic violation while carrying. He thought he would let it be know immediately, I'm mixed here, I kinda, and I say that reluctantly, feel I should not offer unless asked or I feel there is a chance the officer would accidently realize I was carrying. I agree with dwever, it would be a situation where he would, if I read his not so direct answer, become the aggressor. So my question is, if the officer doesn't ask and I offer up I am carrying legally, what would be your next step? I believe that is what LostLake was getting at. Do I now get treated like a criminal or with respect and as I would expect, some kind caution by the offic er. Do you have me remove my weapon and unload it, do you take it from me and tell me I can pick it up at the office... what's your response. I have heard horror storys so understand where we are coming from, I know the horror storys go both ways, I can respect your response.
thank you
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  #48  
Old 10-27-2011, 03:09 PM
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I'm mixed here, I kinda, and I say that reluctantly, feel I should not offer unless asked or I feel there is a chance the officer would accidently realize I was carrying. I agree with dwever, it would be a situation where he would, if I read his not so direct answer, become the aggressor. So my question is, if the officer doesn't ask and I offer up I am carrying legally, what would be your next step? I believe that is what LostLake was getting at. Do I now get treated like a criminal or with respect and as I would expect, some kind caution by the officer. Do you have me remove my weapon and unload it, do you take it from me and tell me I can pick it up at the office... what's your response. I have heard horror storys so understand where we are coming from, I know the horror storys go both ways, I can respect your response.
thank you
EXACTLY Turbo! I wish I could like this post 10 times.

We have seen videos of LEO's being told the citizen is permitted and legal. The LEO then TAKES the gun and says you can pick it up at the station, or you must "put it in the trunk and if I see you stop and load it I'll arrest you. "

These my dear friends are LEO's making their own laws and Joe Citizen gets the short end of the stick. Where does this power trip end?
  #49  
Old 10-27-2011, 04:00 PM
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Will attempt to answer all the questions and "respond" to comments.

Bear with me...

First, when I was working as a LEO and identified a person carrying a "concealed" weapon whilst interacting with that person I absolutely treated him/her as a suspect. Why he/she didn't want me to know he/she was carrying always roused my suspicions, and they always found themselves at gunpoint and usually proned out/handcuffed. They absolutely knew I was a LEO conducting official business thus my suspcicion when I saw they were armed.

When a person advised me up front they were carrying I always asked for their permit/credentials. Though I was a bit cautious that never escalated to drawing my gun except when the person then "admitted" they weren't carrying lawfully. Yes, that happened on myriad occasions...both scenarios.

Yes, I scoped out many a gun...both those carried lawfully and those carried illegally. There are, indeed, "tells." (And given the fact that many leave a gun laying on the seat, under the seat, etc., it's not hard to find them.)

Twice in the last year I have interacted with on-duty LEO's, and I advised them I was carrying. Their reactions were as mine depicted above. In neither case was I required to advise. Frankly, I don't expect folks to do something I wouldn't/don't do.

I don't recall ever unloading a gun at the scene...that includes illegally carried guns.

Did I miss anything? Likely some of you won't be happy but simply stating facts.

Be safe.
  #50  
Old 10-27-2011, 04:01 PM
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Please answer your question. Let dwever answer his questions. Why is the subject not happy with what happens next?
My reply is above but wonder why you're making false statements.

Last edited by The Big D; 10-27-2011 at 04:56 PM. Reason: *above
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