Looking forward to being able to legally CCW in Wisconsin as soon as the DOJ issues the permit...

I've come to understand that many (I'll call them "issues in Wisconsin") intentionally remain unaddressed. Apparently, the state is going to let these issues be addressed via trial, as there are no precedents for many scenarios. Could prove to be interesting, this 'learn as we go' philosophy...

Since there is no clear policy as to what will or may happen once a citizen legally exercises their rights to CCW, I am interested in learning how other states / jurisdictions handle the events post discharge of a CCW.

Here's the scenario:

1. events transpire to where the CCW holder discharges their weapon to sufficiently...
2. 'stop' the threat, then...
3. call 911, wait till...
4. authorities arrive

What happens next in your neighborhood?

I'm curious about the next steps, #5 and beyond...

There is never a clear policy on what happens when you discharge your weapon because no two situations are the same.

Trust that you will be questioned at length, and you better have been in a position where your life was threatened and there was no better way out than discharging your weapon.

Then your life changes. Never for the better..........But at least you ARE alive.
Jim

I don't see how the fact that its a ccw self defense shooting is any different than before we had ccw. Self defense is self defense.

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M&P .40, M&P 9c & Shield 45

in general, you'll be filling out a report.
it'll probably go to court.
It may or may not be found to be a good shoot.
Either way you'll have a reoccurring nightmare with a body falling after the flash. which may or may not be in prison depending upon the outcome.

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it just needs more voltage

In my CCW class, we discussed this.

The advice given was to call your lawyer before saying anything.

It's a legal matter. You never know what the DA will do.

Serious business, this....

Greg

After you call 911 you call your attorney.

Do not leave the scene unless it is absolutely unsafe for you to stay there. If it is unsafe for you to stay put, call 911 again and tell them that the location is unsafe and you are moving to a safe location. Again don't do this unless you absolutely have to do so.

Do not move or otherwise futz with any evidence. Keep an eye on whatever the bad guy had as a weapon. You don't want it to disappear.

When the first officer arrives, put your gun on the ground and step back away from it. Keep your hands in clear sight.

Do not talk to the police without your attorney other than to identify yourself. If you cannot reach your attorney, you simply tell the police that you don't want to talk until you have an attorney present and shut up. If you feel the need to say anything else, just tell them that you are shook up and want to make sure that you have collected your thoughts before you give any statement. That isn't a sign of guilt. That is your right. If that means you spend a night in jail until you can get in touch with your attorney, do it.

If the police encourage you to talk, remember, even with a good shoot, they aren't your friends, they aren't your pals, they are the police with a job to do.

Don't discuss matters with anyone unless your attorney specifically oks it. Statements made out of bravado can and will get you indicted or sued. What you tell your best friend won't stay between the two of you. If you feel an overwhelming desire to discuss it, have your attorney refer you to a psychologist or visit with your clergyman. Both are privileged communications.

Hope the advice helps. Sorry if it seems a bit bleak. Keep in mind that my job as an attorney is to keep folks out of trouble, not make them feel all sunshiney and bright.

Jim

That is one of the best responses I have read.
Very well put.

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TDR911 Sigma Laser Systems

I agree, good stuff.

The only thing missing are the two "don't talk to the police" videos.
Thanks,

jwk did an excellent job in his post.

I started to add some of my thoughts to his, but upon further review, I think I'll pass. I'd rather not post anything on the internet that might come back to bite me on the rear-end at some later date.

I can only imagine some aggressive DA wanting to make a name for himself/herself confiscated my computer and found where I'd stated how to respond, in the event something like this if it ever happened. It might be pretty easy to paint me as some sort of kook who was just waiting for a chance to use my ccw, and try to get away with it. No, thanks. Just my $.02. YMMV.

One thing to add to jwk's excellent post:

When you are on the phone w/ 911, give them a description of yourself, e.g. "I'm a white male, 6 feet tall, about 200 pounds, and I'm wearing a white golf shirt and blue jeans." The police are responding to a shooting, and you want them to have as much information as possible about who the good guy is.

In my CCW class the book 'In The Gravest Extreme' by Massad Ayoob was required reading. It was a real eye opener for me.

Information coming directly from Massad Ayoob goes something like this.

When the police show up, convey in precise terms that the guy with holes in his chest attacked you, that you were forced to draw your weapon and fire, and point out where and with what did the holy chest guy assault you with. And tell them that you will give a full statement within 24 hours to them after you've had time to speak with an attorney.

The "Don't talk to the police" statement is the worst advice out there floating around gun forums. You have to convey that you're the victim right off the bat and show why, shutting up makes you look guilty, or at the very least like you're hiding something. Being uncooperative is no way to make the point known that you were the victim of a crime and had to shoot someone.

Last week in NYC, a man was robbed while walking with his 4 year old. His 4 year old was shot in the face. He struggled with the shooter and magaged to get the gun (imagine the unholy rage he was feeling seeing his son shot by this lowlife? I'd be able to wrestle Superman if that was me). The perp runs off and the man chases after him, shooting him in the back. The man was arrested and the DA is going to press charges, even though he doesnb't really want to since the law demands it. Let the cops show up, ID yourself, tell them you shot the guy (or you fired) but don't give them any further info unless the guy ran off. Don't tell them anything else until a lawyer comes. Being a retired cop, I have no animosity towards cops, but they have a job to do and they're not your buddy.

Even IF you aren't charged, expect to be sued by the perp or his family. They'll hold up his 8th grade picture and tell the press he was just turning his life around. You'll spend at least 50 grand in legal fees, and if you lose the civil case, you'll lose eveything you own.

Nice, huh?

Excellent post by JWK. I would only add one thing to that. He states when the police arrive to lay your gun on the ground. Don't do anything when the police arrive other than keep your hands in plain sight. Let them tell you what to do with your gun. If you make any moves with a gun when they arrive, it could make them a little nervous. Other than that, he is spot on with his post.

Thank you JWK for that most informative piece of informantion.
Now if I can only figure out how to save it!
Bill from Michigan

For what it's worth, here is a previous thread on the topic....

Good advice if you’re involved in a shooting.

Expect to;
- Be treated like a criminal
- Spend a shift at the police department
- Your permit to carry to be temporally revoked
- Pay a lot of a lawyer
- Not to see your gun for a very long time.

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Don't look, reload and shoot!

While I agree with you in principal, give your dispatchers credit for their ability to screw things up! If you have been on the street for over 6 months you know this. My experience is that the first thing responding officers are told, or how they hear it, would be this is the SUSPECT description!

I was, for long enough to have retired. Saw it too many times.

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Gunsmithing since 1961

Good advice above in my opinion. I would strongly suggest you google Mas Ayoob on after shooting in self-defense. He , if you don't know, is one of the most respected experts in defense and other issues associated with shooting. He is all over the gun magazines, and has a couple of books- but I'm sure the internet will ahve one of his articles on SD shoots. Take care.

Remember when cops shoot they are presumed to be within the law until the investigation shows otherwise. When you shoot as a civilian the cops assume you broke some law until the contrary is shown

Oh, believe me, I give dispatchers credit for screwing it up, including the time they sent me to the wrong address on the oposite end of the city as a backup to a felony arrest on a murder suspect. However, at least your description will be on tape at Dispatch which your attorney can get a copy of to prove that you were trying to do the right thing.

The guy that taught our class is a police officer also, and this is exactly what he told us to do. Very good advise.

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God, country, family.

So let me get this straight...you, as a citizen have NO responsibility to tell responding officers how many suspects there were, which way they went, what weapons they had, if they shot anyone else, if there was a hostage, etc. No clarification or information that would help clarify the situation or assist responding officers in putting out a crime broadcast and possibly capturing an outstanding suspect or suspects, or maybe help an injured bystander...amazing. Just sit there, play dumb and wait for your attorney, who may be hours in arriving. The fact that you didn't assist in any way will be noted when and if you go to court. If that's what you intend on doing, maybe some other plan besides carrying a weapon needs to be looked into. Your responsibility as a citizen doesn't stop when you start carrying. I think I'd do a little more research into what happens AFTER a shooting; taking the advice of an internet attorney, who may or may not be versed in criminal law regarding shootings or self-defense is probably not what I'd do. This was all hashed out many times before in many other threads; all the more reason to do your own research and have your own plan, which should include a basic statement to responding officers. Being quiet didn't work for Jesus; it probably won't work for you. Only my thoughts, based on 24 years of seeing (and investigating) what actually happens daily in a big city.
Bob

Massad Ayoob is my guru for this. His book "In the Gravest Extreme" is the answer he will attest to.

Others are right, too. You will need an attorney. You will need lots of money. You will be sued by the survivors and their relatives. Losing your gun is the least of your worries. You may get that back someday.
You life will change. That scares the spit out of me. I almost bailed out of the class when I heard all that.
Texas, Florida(I think) and maybe a few others will not allow civil suits, so there is some protection.

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USN WWII Korea
NRA

My CCW instructor required that book be read as part of the class. Its on my desk and I read it often. If you have to shoot, your life is changed forever. Most often, not for the good.

In my CCW Class, the Lawyer said this.....


"If you clear leather for any reason what so ever, you will go to jail. Whether or not you get out, is depending on if you're justified or not."

WC

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.357 Magnum - 8 Times

I have a DVD dealing with the "after shoot" issue and in it a former DA from LA County gave an example of why it may not be a good thing to talk to LE immediately after a shooting, especially when it comes to specific details.

Here is one of the examples he used.

Let's say you shot a intruder in your home in the dark so you didn't get a good look at his face, either before or after the shooting (maybe he fell on the floor face down.)

If asked if you ever saw him (the intruder) before and you say no and it turns out he was a neighbor from down the street who you had seen, if only in passing, then it could be perceived as if you were lying...

Having hung around with LEO's for many years I tend to think, and talk in more specific terms. Back in the 70's I had a friend in LE, who, if I said to him "He told me such & such" I would usually get a response something like "He? he who??"

This LEO friend explained to me about testifying in court and how one has to be very specific and try to avoid generalities because you will more than likely be called on to clarify such statements. Because of this I had a good idea where that former DA from LA Co. was coming from when he used that type of an example......

I could easily see where someone who tends to talk in generalities could get in trouble with one of their statements when talking to those who tend to focus on the literal meaning of what people say.
It's a whole different mind-set.

In reading the comments about a proper response to a self defense shooting I decided I did not want to be on either side of that situation. It did however prompt me to take out my CCW to check expiration date and refresh myself as to the wording. In my state or at least my locality it does not indicate a "concealed weapon" permit,but instead states...Permit to carry a concealed handgun. The term Weapon of course could be refering to one of the popular edged devices such as the old straight razor or Mr. Bowie's choice. Off subject a tad as I said ,but I wonder about other states wording.:::::: Good till 2014 by the way .

Here in Michigan ours is a Concealed Pistol License (CPL.)

CCW is the offence you would be charged with for carrying a handgun without a CPL so it's something that you don't want to get in Michigan.

Mas Ayoob tells several different stories about folks who were forced to shoot, and were right in doing it. But despite the 'good shoot' they ended up spending months- even 2 years in one case- in jail awaiting trial. Yes, a good lawyer is terribly important, and keeping your mouth shut- to a degree. Each situation is different, we were taught to say "I was in fear of my life" as the first words out of our mouth. But after reading Ayoob's opinions everyone will understand- there ain't no set routine...all we can do is learn, practice scenarios, and HOPE whatever happens fits one of those scenarios we practiced- which ain't too likely.
Great thread, by the way.

I know all situations would be different but I'm trying to get a handle on exercising my 5th Amendment Rights not to incriminate myself and still maintain a good rapport with an investigating officer(s).

LEO's are people too and some might be having a bad day and cop an attitude, no pun intended, if it appeared as if I wasn't cooperating.

I've been mulling over a number of ways to refuse to make a statement without my Attorney being present without coming off as overtly uncooperative but it's one of those gray areas that is hard to pin down. Once any goodwill a person may have with an Officer is gone it will probably be pretty hard to get it back, that is assuming you had it in the first place.

I decided to take a CCW course offered by the Sheriff's Department. It was $100, and 8 hours. It was taught by two department instructors: they train the staff, and are recognized by the state as being 'qualified and trained' for their duties. What was communicated is that there is no way to anticipate what will happen post shoot... Except for some expected givens:

1) There will be an investigation
2) During the investigation, your weapon will be confiscated as evidence
3) Depending on the investigation, outcomes will de determined
4) Court / jury / etc. may be involved
5) Plan on spending lots of money (estimated at $50K or more)
6) Legal council was suggested

Once (if?) the situation has been de-fused, the instructors incouraged rendering first aid to the person / people that you just shot. Why? In their opinion, it would help you (the shooter) in a civil suit - which can still happen even if you are found to be justified in the shooting.

The moral of the story: do whatever you can to avoid the situation where taking a shot is the only option you're left with.