Wow, all I can say is Wow!

I have a tough enough time dealin with the real deals without thinkin 'bout some what ifs.

But I'll play along. I's jest really like a good puzzle...

I've had folks pull guns on me, brandish knifes of one sort or another.
Even had one cat draw a broad ax on me...I don't rightly recall my reaction to each and ever one of those real life incidents.

But, I would say that distance and cover are your friend, use it. Don't over think it.
When all else fails fall back on your trainin'...You do have training don't you?

1.Turning to the door way to my right, as I crossed the thresh-hold the subject drew back the ax over his right shoulder.
I stepped quickly back in the hallway and to my right using the door jam as cover while drawing my sidearm with my right hand
and transitioning the pistol to my left hand.
By pieing the corner I was able to come sights on to the perpetrator...

A. Did I go running from the building screaming like a lit'l girl?
B. Did open fire with my sidearm?
C. Did I order the subject in a loud command voice to drop the battle ax?
D. Shoot the ax out of his hands?
E. Lastly did I shoot out the lights and hope for the best.

A lucky Internet hand shake for the first guess.


Su Amigo,
Dave

The above post is copyrighted and not to be used, quoted or copied in any manner without written permission of the author.

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Dave ... I'm going out on the proverbial limb and choosing d).

Do tell ...

Ya know, it has been my experance the alot of shots fired do strike the weapon.
I believe cause we sumtimes kinda tunnel focus on the threat.

Sorry, no I didn't shoot the ax outta his hands...But here's yer lucky handshake / wave


Su Amigo,
Dave

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Did you axe him to drop his weapon?

Did he kill you?

Ah, I ain't never been kilt in my whole life...That I recall anyhows

But, A Good Guess though.

Su Amigo,
Dave

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

My-My My-MY MY MY My...

You guys are having too much fun with this...

Shame on y'all!

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Marty 4513TSW 13-1 642 60-10

Did he get mad and go home?

__________________
James L. "Jim" Rhiner

No...But I did.


Su Amigo,
Dave

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

mad, not even get even; I always tried to get ahead!

I suspect he'll post some reply eventually claiming none of us were responsive to his questions. Or perhaps he realizes that while answering his questions, based on experience and not some make believe mall ninja's claims to being all knowledgeable in self defense matters...

You can stay. I learn things from you.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

My Bad!

I though ya was referrin' to the cat with the ax.

He got called home...


Su Amigo,
Dave

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Somehow, I knew that.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

If I were in that situation, since I carry two handguns, one which I have to draw, a 44 Spl CA Bulldog and my second gun, a S&W 38 Spl in a pocket holster, my hand would already be on the pocket gun which can be drawn faster. Next, I have a disabled family member, so retreat is not an option, and if it is my car he is after, I cannot surrender it if my daughter is in it. An old disabled person does not have to wait to be assaulted in Texas before drawing the weapon. Normally he would be verbally warned before he got that close, and if he continued coming then I would draw, it would be up to him if he wanted to continue his charge in which case I would fire in self defense. Other States may present a problem, and in Texas I very well might go before a Grand Jury but thats always a cost of having to defend yourself. Also Texas has no duty to retreat from a criminal who is trying to rob you, carjack you or assault you, provided you did not provoke the incident. My car would not be taken unless he killed me because if my daughter is in it, and he abandoned it somewhere she does not know to get out of a hot car. So I don't think I would have a problem defending the shooting as justified.

When a weapon comes out and you aggressively approach me, my firearm comes out and you've got a TINY window of opportunity to not get shot.

Ohio law requires me, when not in home or vehicle, to ATTEMPT to retreat if possible IN PERFECT SAFETY.

That means that if you CHOOSE to put me in reasonable fear of life and limb outside of my home, I must TRY to withdraw, IF I can do so without incurring one iota of additional danger. If I can't get behind a locked door of some kind before you get to me, you're getting shot. End of discussion.

If I can use evasion, cover and concealment to create time and distance between us, I will. If you're not physically BARRED from attacking me, you're going to stop a bullet.

Don't like that? Don't put me in immediate fear of life and limb.

You need to be more specific as to type of holster and retention device on that holster as it affects one's ability to draw quickly. This in turn affects the time available which directly impacts the effectiveness of this course of action.

Assuming that he does not change direction, which changes the scenario considerably.

If there are people to run to, you're not isolated.

If you have managed to escape to a safe distance, what is your justification for firing?

Why would you intentionally place yourself at a tactical disadvantage by limiting your mobility and opportunity to take evasive action or move to cover?

There cannot be two of anything that are the "best", the term refers to a singular entity that is superior. You can have a best and second best, but not two best.

This is not a resolution to the scenario. It is a continuation of the scenario.

Again, not a resolution but a continuation. However, wouldn't it be more effective to throw it behind the robber? That way he would have to turn around thus giving you more time to flee.

Then you had better be prepared to do just that. Empty threats are just that, empty.

Front sight, steady trigger squeeze. Shoot to stop the aggressive action.

Front sight, steady trigger squeeze. Shoot to stop the aggressive action.

Front sight, steady trigger squeeze. Shoot to stop the aggressive action.


Again, not a resolution but a continuation. Or are you referring to a psychological resolution based on the assumption that the reason he is engaging in a life of crime is a result of lack of attention in his formative years?

If you can do it before he harms you. Which is doubtful.

If you are convinced that this will end his agressive acts.


Not realistic. Gives the robber too much time to inflict harm.

Disarming the robber would probably be more effective than attempting to disarm his knife.


You have attempted to pose questions disguised as scenarios in order to prove a point that the use of a firearm may not always be the best resolution to a situation. Really? This is not news to any of us that regularly carry a firearm. However, what you fail to realize is that there are many times where the use of a firearm IS the best resolution to a situation, and nothing is ever going to change that. Accept it, deal with it, and move on. Pointless discussions of what we used to refer to as "doomsday scenarios" at the Academy (meaning that no matter what the rookie did, he or she was ALWAYS going to lose) is useless, both from a practical and theoretical standpoint.

Well, That ought to do it.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

I have to say the more I think about it the more I see scenarios where the use of a firearm is not the best answer to the problem for example I was at a local restaurant and my steak came well done instead of medium I have to say the use of my revolver never even crossed my mind I have posted this reply without punctuation to try and make it just as annoying as these what if threads

Actually is it interesting still only two people try to answer the questions. Here is the thing with the question. A man has to have a plan. You have a plan what to do when. Just the information that a police officer should have a distance of 21 feet gives you the information that you aren't going to be trying to drawing when he rushes you with a knife. Scenarios I have posed have something to do with following a plan. You know your best option is run even if to get distance between you and the attack so you can turn and shoot. The last scenario happened.

You know people learn a lot from the experiences of victims. Ex-Lieutenant Bittenbinder of the Chicago police department who was in homicide developed a self defense system based upon the experiences of victims and the crimes themselves. He is considered an national authority on self defense.

The scene with the pregnant women would been to cooperate until she escaped. The lesson from her death is that sounding a panic alarm when you are close to the attacker with a knife can get you killed.

Celtic Sire I will just take one of your reasonings to show what my opinion on it is. At 10 feet away you probably be a lot slower than a police officer when drawing weapons. They often have very quick drawing holsters so if they would have to run at 10 feet it would follow that the other person would have to run as well at 10 feet. It is very unlikely that the potential victim will have a holster he or she can draw from and be faster than a police officer who trains for this. The officer's life depends on getting their gun out of their holsters within seconds. A good case in point is to ask a friend who is an officer if he thinks a victim could draw quicker than him and be effective at bringing down an assailant charging him or her with a knife at 10 feet away without getting himself or herself killed. Case in point from the 21 feet established at a safe distance to draw a weapon the victim has to be more than twice the speed of an officer in draw, aim, and fire mode to bring down the assailant without getting killed.

My duty holster is a triple retention holster. First thing to do on the draw is to depress the top retaining loop down and forward with the thumb; then the pistol must be drawn straight up with no twisting or else it binds in the holster. It is designed so someone, unauthorized, can't easily take it away from you. With practice one can draw it fast; but drawing from my molded leather open top holster for my Colt Trooper is a lot faster.

duke - there have been many people on S&W Forums (and 1911Forums; and what other gun related forums have you posted on?) that have given you answers - not what you want to hear so you choose to claim no one is answering your questions.

For the final time: No two scenarios are the same; nor is the response going to be the same either.

I've got almost 40 years in uniform (30 military with some Maritime Law Enforcement experience and 8 years as a federal law enforcement officer. I don't have as much LE experience as many of the people who've posted here but I know how to survive on job.

What exactly do you do for a living? Dream up scenarios to flood the internet?

I've said enough now; this thread has probably ran its course - we can only give you the same answers so many times before it becomes useless...I'm done.

Planning is REACTIVE. Like home defense. On the street you must be PROACTIVE.

No one can plan for every situation. NO ONE.

Situation awareness, a decent firearm, training and practice, the ability to think fast on your feet, and the ability to be flexible allowing to you to adapt to the hand you've been dealt will give you an advantage. How much advantage depends on how the situation unfolds.

The above statement covers ANY and ALL "what if" scenarios you can think off. If your looking for a one size fits all, leave the gun at home.

Considering that I am in law enforcement, I can't be slower, now can I?

No, the vast majority of uniformed Officers today use either Level 2 or Level 3 holsters which are anything but "quick drawing" holsters.

Actually, most CCW holders are going to use either a Level 1 holster or no holster at all, i.e. pocket carry. And I don't know what Academy you taught firearms at, but I don't ever recall teaching police officers the "fast draw". The reality is that the speed at which a CCW holder is going to draw vs. the speed at which a LEO is going to draw is going to be a non-issue. It's more about tactics, mindset, practice, and situational awareness. So, your argument is negated.

No, the officer's life depends on his training and abilities. This isn't Dodge City; we don't do fast draw shootouts on Main Street anymore.

I don't need to ask anyone anything about the "21 Foot Rule". Unlike you, I have practical, real world experience in use of force situations. I have also testified in court as an expert witness in use of force situations. You continue to argue your points in an attempt to convince others that it's better to "Run away, run away!" than attempt armed resistance. We all know that there are times when this is true, and there are times when it is not. What you fail to realize is that there are those of us who know this from having been in those situations on more than one occasion, and not from some internet wannabe with a penchant for ridiculous scenarios and bad sentence structure. You have become strident and boring.

I didn't have time to read every post thoroughly, but didn't see anyone who posted this link: Too close - dont underestimate the knife - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1YTE...eature=related

Not such a bad idea to take a knife to a gunfight!!!

IF you know what your doing. Most people don't. Including me. The only thing I know for sure is nobody is gonna get close enough to me with a knife.

Got that right! And some are still taking his bait...

__________________
Marty 4513TSW 13-1 642 60-10

Let's put it this way people aren't suppose to make personal attacks and that is what is happening. If you don't like what I have to say don't respond to my discussions. It is a free forum and as long as I don't do what a number of people are doing to me I shouldn't have a problem. In fact when I make a statement I have major internationally know Martial Art and Self Defense sources. One of the last sources was Dan Inosanto about the knife and distance. Somebody gave a source to Utube. My instructor was an instructor at Dan Inosanto Academy and was student there. He was a knife expert and taught in California Police Departments about the knife. Who is Dan Inosanto? I bet a number of people don't know who he is or who he knew or even why the guy is important. I already know a number of people don't know Bittenbinder is but I already have been told he is a know nothing. The best way to defend your position is to discredit somebody's sources and his statements. Attack the person and it hasn't stopped. I am boring, write bad sentences, I don't know what holsters police officers carry, no two situations are the same, what a plan who can make a plan, I make up things on the internet, what kind of job do I have, the scenarios are ridiculous, etc. I will say I have been in some life and death situations and I have survived. I am a know nothing but I would love to compare experts in the field with the people that criticize me. I won't say anymore but it is a shame I have had so many attack me and my arguments with little understanding of what the experts say. You know I have had people with years of experience tell me things but it still doesn't make them right. I will leave with one last story. A true story of a police officer that was killed in the line of duty. He allowed himself to be taken to a second location by a man with a gun. Of course he was killed by the man with the gun. According to ex-Lieutenant Bittenbinder a 22 year veteran of homicide in the Chicago PD you never let yourself be taken to a 2nd location. I have been told this guy is a hack as well. The officer would have had a better chance of surviving if he tried to escape than going with the suspect. As I said before if you don't like what I am saying please don't respond. It is a free forum. If I am so bad to listen to ignore my postings. I would be up for some discussions but the continuing attacks about me personally weaken my respect for the people that make them.

Not every situation calls for a firearm. I carry pepper spray (the police-type canister, not the key chain junk). The police-type canister will shoot about 12 feet, the key chain stuff only shoots about 6 feet.

Keep in mind, that even if you don't fire your weapon there is a reasonable chance that someone will dial 911 once the weapon is drawn. That means police, police reports, confiscation of the weapon pending the completion of the investigation, and the loss of 4+ hours of your life. So if someone gets in my face and I think that the pepper spray will do the job, that is what I would use. I carry the pepper spray on my weak hand side so I can draw my weapon and spray at the same time.

In point of fact I end up giving my pepper spray away more often than I've used it. If a woman friend mentions that she is nervous about someone following her, I immediately hand her my pepper spray. I keep a spare at home.

If a gun were the answer for all situations cops would not carry batons, mace or tasers. But in fact the police shootings, and shots fired in NY City have been going down as the use of less than lethal device use has been going up.

My research paper:

A Treatise On The Effectiveness Of Concealed Carry

A number of typical street violence scenarios were posted to several large forums frequented by gun experts. These are people who have been carrying weapons for many years but possibly have never made a plan for using them. Our questionnaire challenged them to make a life-or-death choice and the results were disappointing:

Out of a total of 383 responses on 5 different firearm forums:

363 refused to answer the scenarios and instead attacked the researcher or the methodology of the research.

18 attempted to answer one or more scenarios, but their answers were incorrect (there is only one correct answer for each scenario).

2 answered one or more scenarios correctly.

So we have clearly proven how delusional the vast majority of concealed weapon carriers are. They do not have a plan for dealing with violence, because when confronted with a scenario they do not even attempt to respond. That will of course get them killed.

Only 2% attempted to deal with the violent scenario at all. Still, 90% of them got it wrong and also would have died.

Two people did get it right, proving that it is possible to use a firearm for self defense. But since 361 other concealed weapons carriers were killed in our posted scenarios, it proves a very low statistical probability that carrying a gun could ever save your life. In 99.5% of the cases, it just gets you killed.

I think a far more important question is:

How can we survive the "WHAT IF" threads and maintain some level of sanity while pondering the endless possibilities without becoming so preoccupied we miss the bad guy climbing in the window.......

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett