Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > General Topics > Concealed Carry & Self Defense
o

Notices

Concealed Carry & Self Defense All aspects of Concealed and Open Carry, Home and Self Defense.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-09-2012, 04:52 PM
Jst1mr Jst1mr is offline
Member
(Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question..  
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Woods and Lakes
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 512
Liked 1,501 Times in 442 Posts
Default (Probably Silly) Holster Question..

Since Wisconsin is newly liberated and I have my license, here is a question for those of you more experienced. Please consider I have had virtually no experience with a "concealed" holster... I would like to "kidney" carry IWB on my strong side with the gun (a 3" bbl, 1911-style .45ACP) canted back to allow a natural angle for my right hand to acquire it. Would this holster actually be a "left handed" holster even though worn on the right side of the back?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-09-2012, 05:10 PM
Broker50 Broker50 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: East Kentucky
Posts: 808
Likes: 247
Liked 189 Times in 102 Posts
Default

In a word, no. You would still need a RH holster. And there are several reasons to not carry that far back, not the least of which is the potential for injury if you fall backwards. I've carried concealed for forty years, the best position is just behind the hip, strongside, at about 4:00 o'clock.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-09-2012, 05:10 PM
CelticSire's Avatar
CelticSire CelticSire is offline
US Veteran
(Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question..  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 1,112
Likes: 1,816
Liked 1,167 Times in 309 Posts
Default

If I understand your description correctly, no. It would be a right hand holster with a rearward cant. There are holsters made that have the capability of adjusting the cant to forward, rearward, or no cant.

Last edited by CelticSire; 01-09-2012 at 05:11 PM. Reason: Spelling
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-09-2012, 05:17 PM
mark1616's Avatar
mark1616 mark1616 is offline
Member
(Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question..  
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I'm a lefty, and sometimes I wear my left-handed iwb at 6 o'clock wear it can be grabbed easily by either hand. I grab it on the outside with my left hand, or from the inside (the part facing my skin) with my right hand. But I do agree that the best position (for me) is just behind the hip, 4 o'clock for righties, 8 o'clock for lefties.

Last edited by mark1616; 01-09-2012 at 05:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-09-2012, 05:26 PM
ContinentalOp's Avatar
ContinentalOp ContinentalOp is offline
Member
(Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question..  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,315
Likes: 13,115
Liked 12,802 Times in 4,228 Posts
Default

I think the first thing is get clear on what you mean by "kidney position." Imagine your waist is a watch face. Your belt buckle is 12:00. Your spine is 6:00. Your left hip is 9:00 and your right hip is 3:00.

What you're describing sounds like carry at maybe 4:00 or 5:00. When you say "canted back" I'm imagining the gun positioned muzzle down, with the muzzle angled forward. This is most definitely not a natural angle if worn on the right side for a right-handed shooter. Not only that, but it will not conceal very well.

Here's what I carry:



It has a forward cant (muzzle down, breech in front of muzzle) and I normally carry it around 3:30. I'm a right-handed shooter. This is very natural for me. The design of the holster also pulls the butt of the gun in tighter for better concealment (the belt going through the rear loop applies pressure there, thus pulling the butt of the gun in).

Here's a good article on holster selection that may give you some ideas about what to look for.

Choosing a Holster To Fit the Fight
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-09-2012, 05:52 PM
ogilvyspecial's Avatar
ogilvyspecial ogilvyspecial is offline
Member
(Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question..  
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9,656
Likes: 1,362
Liked 1,371 Times in 699 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broker50 View Post
There are several reasons to not carry that far back, not the least of which is the potential for injury if you fall backwards.
The above is very sound advice.
I know a former LEO who had carried his back-up gun not quite in the small of his back, but close to it.

While on duty many years ago he was "bum-rushed" by an individual and the momentum took them both down.
The guy I know fell backwards onto his back-up gun, with not only his weight, but that of the bad guy's exerting pressure on his spine.

The injury to his back caused his early retirement from the force and to this day his back is still messed up.

Jst1mr, for the record, there is no such thing as a silly question. If you don't ask, how ya gonna learn?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-09-2012, 06:21 PM
Chubbs103 Chubbs103 is offline
US Veteran
(Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question..  
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
Posts: 712
Likes: 43
Liked 841 Times in 330 Posts
Default

Unless I am mistaken, the OP is asking about *** carry with a "calvary draw."

This position allows access by either hand. I see that as it's only benifit. I personally am not a fan of holsters in the small of the back. I carry at 3:00-4:00.

My best advice to you (regarless of carry position) is invest in a quality, purpose-built belt. Trust me on this.

Chubbs
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-09-2012, 06:27 PM
StanNm19 StanNm19 is offline
Member
(Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question..  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Boondocks
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chubbs103 View Post
invest in a quality, purpose-built belt. Trust me on this.

Chubbs
Best advise so far........
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-09-2012, 06:28 PM
230therapy 230therapy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 4 Posts
Default

You want the following:

1) Forward cant. More forward cant reduces printing of the bottom of the stocks or grip.
2) Strong side holsters are carried in the 3-4 or 7-9 o'clock positions depending upon your dominate hand.
3) Split loops offer more concealment because the overall width of the rig is less (width = leather + gun + leather + belt + snaps). Loops on the face of the holster needlessly add up to 1/4" or 3/8". This may or may not be an issue depending upon the width of the weapon and the clothing you are wearing.
4) A solid GUN belt is essential. It will hold the gun up and prevent you from feeling like you need to adjust the gun. It's a concealed carry "tell". Consider buying a kydex reinforced belt from Comp-Tac. I have two and they are excellent. They don't get floppy after two years since the kydex keeps them rigid.
5) You will likely find that leather is more comfortable than kydex. The leather "gives" and feels softer. Kydex holsters with leather glued to the back and kydex/leather hybrids are available.
6) Shorter grips are easier to hide. You should use a boot style grip for revolvers (or at least shorter stocks if they do extend past the bottom of the frame) or semi-autos that are not as tall. I find that an overall height of 4.75" is a practical limit for comfortable carry for many people. 4.5" overall height is even better. Revolvers can be a weird beastie; you'll need to experiment with them.

Last edited by 230therapy; 01-09-2012 at 06:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-09-2012, 06:31 PM
ogilvyspecial's Avatar
ogilvyspecial ogilvyspecial is offline
Member
(Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question..  
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9,656
Likes: 1,362
Liked 1,371 Times in 699 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chubbs103 View Post
My best advice to you (regarless of carry position) is invest in a quality, purpose-built belt. Trust me on this.

Chubbs
One thing I would like to add the excellent advice above, get a belt that fills up the slots on the holster.

Even the best belt in the world won't perform to it's fullest if it doesn't fit the slots.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-09-2012, 06:41 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
Member
(Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question..  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 14,710
Likes: 2,926
Liked 17,102 Times in 6,271 Posts
Default

I also am a little confused about what you mean by "canted back". This would be a very unnatural draw motion.

Concealed carry is all about compromises. The best place to put your gun to be able to draw quickly is not a good place to conceal it. If it is concealed well, you can't draw it quickly. So we compromise.

IWB offers the best concealability, but I find it uncomfortable. As a lefty my favorite spot is the 8 o'clock position. I wear a loose shirt and it hides very nicely. I can even get a full sized pistol concealed there.

Another thought is the type of shirt you wear. A loose shirt covers the gun well and offers easy access. While you're at it, get shirt with a busy pattern. This is less likely to show a gun even if you bend over or twist. The broken pattern camouflages the outline of the gun should it push on the shirt.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-09-2012, 07:39 PM
Jst1mr Jst1mr is offline
Member
(Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question..  
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Woods and Lakes
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 512
Liked 1,501 Times in 442 Posts
Default

What a great place for advice! Thanks so much for info, advice, links, etc - sure gives me a running start. The confusion around "canted back" comes from my thought of reaching back to that 4 to 5 o'clock position, but drawing the gun with the trigger finger sliding between the body and the gun - in other words, with the hand "flipped over" or palm facing out instead of a palm facing in draw position. I guess that would be a bad idea from a muzzle control standpoint as well as "fishing" your trigger finger around between body and gun. Thanks again, I welcome all thoughts!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-10-2012, 12:03 AM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
Member
(Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question..  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 14,710
Likes: 2,926
Liked 17,102 Times in 6,271 Posts
Default

You are correct Jst1mr. That draw may sound good, but in practice will be slow and difficult to work.

There's no reason you can't try it, but I think you'll quickly discard the idea.

You might look into a Small-of-the-Back holster. They commonly use the type of draw you mention. I just don't know anyone who uses it regularly. It is not an easy place to conceal if you have to sit down. Very uncomfortable.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-10-2012, 03:59 AM
Nemo288's Avatar
Nemo288 Nemo288 is offline
Member
(Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question..  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Badgerland
Posts: 2,371
Likes: 557
Liked 1,496 Times in 786 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogilvyspecial View Post
One thing I would like to add the excellent advice above, get a belt that fills up the slots on the holster.

Even the best belt in the world won't perform to it's fullest if it doesn't fit the slots.
The widest belt you can realistically fit to a pair of jeans is a
1.75". Many holsters are made for the 1.5". Make sure the belt
and slots match as advised above.
I use a Galco SB-5. It's rock solid and contoured so there is no
break-in period. JMHO.

---
Nemo
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-10-2012, 05:03 AM
ContinentalOp's Avatar
ContinentalOp ContinentalOp is offline
Member
(Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question..  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,315
Likes: 13,115
Liked 12,802 Times in 4,228 Posts
Default

I just wanted to add a few more comments.

First, I agree with those who say carrying a gun at the small-of-the-back is a bad idea. Not only is it uncomfortable and increase the risk for serious, possibly permanent, injury if you fall on it, but it can be difficult to keep it concealed. If your shirt or jacket tail rides up, such as when getting up from a seated position, it's possible for the gun to be exposed and you may not be aware of it. If you do become aware of it, it can be difficult to fix discreety. Another point against 6:00 carry is that it can be much more difficult to protect your gun from a disarm attempt than other positions.

Second, I agree with the need for a good, well-built gun belt. I prefer Beltman products, but there are other excellent alternatives available. The important thing is the belt's construction; simply having a thick belt isn't enough. A leather belt constructed from two layers with the grain arranged in perpendicular directions allows the belt to retain it's flexibility to go around your waist but still provide enough lateral rigidity to support your gun. Some belts have a reinforcing layer to make the belt even stiffer. A thick, single-layer belt may provide enough support when new, but many people have reported that such belts lose that support in a relatively shorter time span, sometimes as little as a few months, while double-layer belts are often reported as providing several years of service; it may save you money in the long run to get a good quality belt now.

As far as belt width, a 1.5" belt is probably the most flexible option as many holster makers use this as their default belt loop size (a snug fit between belt and belt loops is important) yet it provides enough support while looking like an ordinary dress belt. With a good belt you might even be able to go down to 1.25"; I use that size with my 642 but not with my 3" 65. While jeans may have 1.75" belt loops, they're most likely sized for thin, single-layer belts. A 1.75" double-layer gun belt may be too thick, especially where the end of the belt comes through the buckle, essentially creating 4 layers of leather.

Of course, these are just my opinions. I'd suggest reading all the posts here and elsewhere in the forum, do your research, find the equipment/methods that you believe will work for you, try them out, and see what actually does work for you. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who learned what worked through trial-and-error. It's important to keep in mind that what works for me or someone else may or may not work for you.

Last edited by ContinentalOp; 01-10-2012 at 08:59 PM. Reason: Correction
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-10-2012, 10:36 AM
Packard Packard is offline
Member
(Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question..  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 572
Likes: 0
Liked 106 Times in 79 Posts
Default

Body type comes into play when choosing a holster. I've been weight lifting for 50+ years and I have a narrow waist and wide lats and broad shoulders. That means that the un-tucked shirt blouses quite wide at the sides. It leaves plenty of room for a 3:00 carry, and it prints less at that position too.

But I cannot carry in a shoulder rig as it will hang too far away from my body.

Stout people need to avoid appendix carry. I tried carrying a shrouded hammer Smith snubby with a clip draw at the appendix position (about 12:30 - 1:00 position) but the gun would "squirt" up and fall out. Others do well with the clip draw. I don't. Body type.

I'm sure there are other body-type dictates, but those are the ones that come to mind.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-10-2012, 08:36 PM
230therapy 230therapy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 4 Posts
Default

You'll end up with more than one gun belt. You'll need brown and black. 1.5" wide belts are good casual belts. 1.75" is too wide and looks bad except with work clothes. You'll end up getting a 1.25" wide belt for more dressy occasions.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-10-2012, 09:20 PM
Jst1mr Jst1mr is offline
Member
(Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question..  
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Woods and Lakes
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 512
Liked 1,501 Times in 442 Posts
Default

Thanks, all - so much advice I'm seeing stars in front of my eyes......no,wait, those are dollar signs!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-10-2012, 11:40 PM
ogilvyspecial's Avatar
ogilvyspecial ogilvyspecial is offline
Member
(Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question..  
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9,656
Likes: 1,362
Liked 1,371 Times in 699 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jst1mr View Post
Thanks, all - so much advice I'm seeing stars in front of my eyes......no,wait, those are dollar signs!
Jst1mr, don't worry about those dollar signs...

Any sign of your dollars will be gone before you know it...
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-11-2012, 10:56 AM
elm_creek_smith's Avatar
elm_creek_smith elm_creek_smith is offline
US Veteran
(Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question.. (Probably Silly) Holster Question..  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Tulsa County
Posts: 2,413
Likes: 1,644
Liked 3,135 Times in 1,146 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogilvyspecial View Post
One thing I would like to add the excellent advice above, get a belt that fills up the slots on the holster.

Even the best belt in the world won't perform to it's fullest if it doesn't fit the slots.
I have an old Bucheimer "Concealer" for my Model 13-3 that requires a GOOD 1.75" belt to keep it against my side. I wear a 1.75" 5.11 Double Duty TDA belt when I use that holster. Even the same belt in 1.5" won't secure it properly. (I rarely use the "Concealer" since its thumbbreak doesn't work with Bianchi Lightning grips.)

ECS
__________________
CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-11-2012, 12:07 PM
230therapy 230therapy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 4 Posts
Default

I've never been able to fit a 1.75" belt in most jeans. 1.5" seems to be the max for Wranglers and Levis. Also keep in mind that you may not be able to fit the extra part of the belt through the loops.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
1911, 45acp, 642, beltman, bianchi, concealed, galco, kydex, leather, model 13-3, sig arms, snubby

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Silly Question- SD9 VE... Hawg Rider Smith & Wesson SD & Sigma Pistols 7 12-12-2013 01:02 PM
A Silly Question GaryS The Lounge 9 03-27-2013 08:36 PM
Possible Silly but Serious Question IslayMalt Concealed Carry & Self Defense 15 08-31-2011 09:07 PM
Silly question..... rosborn Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols 11 12-20-2010 08:50 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:42 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)