Hand gun ammo over penettration.

[poordevil]

We have been talking about the merits of Home Defense Ammo. It has gone from .357 mag to .22 lr to shotgun bird shot. A lot of the choices offered were with a consideration toward over penetration, and the danger posed to bystanders and folks in other rooms and or dwellings.

I do not know the answer to this so I am throwing it out here.

I have seen x rays of gun shot victims in the morgue. I have seen photos and even some of those 48 Hour cop shows.

One x ray I saw was of a well muscled fellow who was shot in the back with a .45 Auto (San Diego CA gang initiation type murder).

The FMJ Hard ball was still inside.

On a 48 Hours show, another husky fellow was shot in a night club at pretty close range with a 180 gr FMJ .40 S&W. The round went through him, but was found in is jacket while he was being treated. He did not live. So it went all the way through, but exited spent.

Then a few nights ago I was watching the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald. Ruby got within inches(?) and shot him at pert near contact range. I saw the death photo of Oswald and the entrance wound was pretty graphic. Ruby used a Colt Detective Special, 2"BBL with , what? 158 gr LRN Police Service rounds (noted for over penetrating) Or .38 Special High Velocity (probably not) or 200 gr .38 Special Super Police (maybe?) Oswald was surrounded by police and had one hand cuffed to him. To my understanding no one got hit with the over penetrating bullet. Did it in fact not exit?

We don't want our rounds to exit the bad guy and hurt an innocent, but in real life, truly, how real is the danger?

Thank you
Pat

[Bkreutz]

The danger is when the shooter misses the intended target and the bullet hits a bystander (or goes through the drywall into the next room). Most people will say that they hit what they aim at but investigation of shooting incidents show otherwise. Lots of misses when adrenaline kicks in.

[Old cop]

No one really knows the answer to this (too many variables), but you're always better served w/hollow point ammo in the common self defense calibers. I've been carrying a small .38 for many years and use the old school +P FBI load b/c my street experience taught me that it works, given good shot placement. I can't recall any over penetration in any of these officer involved shootings.

[Erich]

I've worked on at least three cases in which a handgun round (two ball, one JHP) overpenetrated the intended target and injured someone else.

[SweetMK]

Originally Posted by Erich

I've worked on at least three cases in which a handgun round (two ball, one JHP) overpenetrated the intended target and injured someone else.

So, would a 22LR HP or 22Mag HP be a better choice in the home?

[Doug M.]

5.56X45 is far less likely to over penetrate, to the extent that such is an issue.

[Protected One]

Too many variables for a definitive answer on this. Did the round strike bone or not? How big is the threat? How close was the target? etc, etc.

[chief38]

So many factors to be taken into consideration.

1) where the shot hits on the body
2) clothing being worn
3) a persons build and weight
4) particular type of firearms and barrel length
5) backstop type behind person being shot
6) I can keep going but I think you get the picture

[Erich]

Originally Posted by SweetMK

So, would a 22LR HP or 22Mag HP be a better choice in the home?

I couldn't begin to say - so many variables. Your home, your gun, your ammo - you decide.

[Doug M.]

The available data indicates that MISSING is several times more likely as a risk than over penetration. One of the reason for the FBI protocols is that not all shots are directly from the front or back. Adequate penetration from the side requires more depth. Clothes can make a difference, hence the 4 layer denim test (which I have been told by people who know more than I is the one that seems to best predict performance on actual assailants). In addition, some # of assailants will have a significant layer of fat; while there will be less if you are shooting high enough on the body, there have been incidents in which the food blister stopped the round from doing its job.

[sac-gunslinger]

Originally Posted by Erich

I've worked on at least three cases in which a handgun round (two ball, one JHP) overpenetrated the intended target and injured someone else.

We always have to look at what is behind our intended target. Kind of difficult when you are under stress but you just have to do it. Especially important when the prosecutor asks "Mr. Jones, did you have any idea what was behind your attacker?"

[sac-gunslinger]

Originally Posted by Doug M.

5.56X45 is far less likely to over penetrate, to the extent that such is an issue.

Shot from a rifle at 2400+ FPS?

[sac-gunslinger]

Originally Posted by SweetMK

So, would a 22LR HP or 22Mag HP be a better choice in the home?

The 22s, because of their low caliber and bullet construction, tend to penetrate quite far.

[Doug M.]

Originally Posted by sac-gunslinger

Shot from a rifle at 2400+ FPS?

*
Yup. Doctor Roberts has a pretty good description of this in his materials on selecting duty and defensive ammo. It's actually been well-established for years. Getting the typical LE or military command personnel (and some trainers, especially .mil) to comprehend and apply this has been an on-going and unpleasant battle.

I believe the FBI provided some materials to the same effect a few years ago, and it might be more accessible (the only place I know of for sure to get Gary's latest stuff is a limited access forum). While a lot of the stuff the FBI does for its own use is not generally applicable to other functions, and some is just poor, their ballistic research has been generally pretty good.

[tops]

I was told once upon a time there is no such thing as over penetration. The way it was explained to me was look at it like a bucket of water. If you shoot a hole in one side the water will run out but if the bullet goes all the way through and makes a hole in the other side the water will run out twice as fast. Larry

[shouldazagged]

Originally Posted by tops

I was told once upon a time there is no such thing as over penetration. The way it was explained to me was look at it like a bucket of water. If you shoot a hole in one side the water will run out but if the bullet goes all the way through and makes a hole in the other side the water will run out twice as fast. Larry

That's all very well if there isn't an innocent bystander on the other side of the bucket...

[WR Moore]

Several years back Combat Handguns published an article by Robert K. Taubert about the .223/5.56mm inside. He was at one time head of the FBI R&D section and spear headed that testing as well as the handgun ammo test development.

Speedreading version: use 40-45 gr softpoints that function well in your particular firearm. Tends to exit drywall as fragments.

[Rule 303]

I use the same type of ammo as the Local Police Department. I know they are experts and would not use a round that would over penetrate.

Should I ever have another confrontation, I will tell everyone who will listen that, now that I buy my own instead of my Department and Agency buying it.

Rule 303

[tops]

Originally Posted by shouldazagged

That's all very well if there isn't an innocent bystander on the other side of the bucket...

Could be another bad person and you would get a twofer. Larry

[SMSgt]

Originally Posted by Bkreutz

The danger is when the shooter misses the intended target and the bullet hits a bystander (or goes through the drywall into the next room). Most people will say that they hit what they aim at but investigation of shooting incidents show otherwise. Lots of misses when adrenaline kicks in.

Still, a miss with any type of bullet has those same risks.

[SweetMK]

Originally Posted by tops

Could be another bad person and you would get a twofer. Larry

Isn't that called a "Quigley"?

[shouldazagged]

Originally Posted by tops

Could be another bad person and you would get a twofer. Larry

Does it count as a twofer if the next guy is Monsignor O'Hara?