I first want to say that I love my 1911 but.....

Yesterday I took a really good class called Handgun Self Defense. This was 9 hours at an outdoor range in front of a target with three instructors and 500 rounds of ammo. It seemed like every other pistol in the class was a 1911. They had Wilson Combat, Kimbers, S&Ws, Sig. I could have payed off my wifes car with all the high dollar steel.
After going toe to toe with these 1911s for a day, with my little Glock 19, I will wear my Glock 19 proudly and keep my Colt Government in the safe with the wheel guns. I cannot see one single advantage that the 1911 offers over a modern pistol like the M&P, Glock and XDs. They are heavy, have a manual safety and a limited magazine capacity. Looking at the targets I could tell that many of these shooters went out and bought these expensive relics and did not know how to shoot them, much less fight with them.

I love them, too...but my favorite carry gun is a Glock 17. Not about round count, but it just fits my big fat hand better than the G19, and it is not a load to carry with the proper holster and belt.

Of course to your second point about the shooters who "went out and bought these expensive relics and did not know how to shoot them,.." I think you could probably say the same about any gun. In most of the handgun classes I've taken there is always someone (male and female) with a gun they just bought who has no idea how to operate it. It's not a gun bias, its more of an indictment of some of the folks who won't spend time with the gun. Got to learn to crawl before you run, you know.

the wonderguns will never ever come close to having a trigger like a 1911 nor the accuracy. Reliability is subjective as many low end 1911s need some help, but a solidly built and maintained 1911 is tops....and honestly, and its only a theory, I suspect people that already have a handle on their 1911s shoot and operate them with high effectiveness - yet you were possibly witnessing 1911 newbs, since that was the feeling you got. They were there to learn apparently. I for one, can shoot my 1911s with a one-ragged hole groupings all day long. Nothing touches their trigger, pointability, accuracy for me.

the safety system IMO is perfect. With practice, the TS comes off as you present, and the rest is history. They conceal probably better than most any other gun, due to their inherent thinness. You will be hard pressed to find a slimmer gun. barrel length is inconsequential and IWB, they just disappear. that's my take but obviously everyones mileage will vary.

Having said all that...I've been seriously infected by S&W wheelguns...and have been carrying my 627 everyday since I got it. So basically, disregard everything I just said. lmao!!!

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God Bless Our Troops.

Sure why not. Thin, nice trigger, easy to point, TS is natural and with and aluminum frame, not that heavy. Plus a 45 starts that big, a 9 has to expand to get there. Just kidding, not starting a caliber war. Been done here already I am sure. My two primary choices are a 1911 or a wheel gun.

Let's see.

A 1911 has been around for 100 yrs. Glock has 25 yrs and been remodeled four times.

A 1911 does not go KaBoom as do Glock.

For the most part, a 1911 will increase in value while a Glock will never increase in worth.

A 1911 looks better than a Glock and can be customized to the owners taste.

A 1911 is ergonomically correct and a Glock is not.

A 1911 is not prone to limp wristing. Maybe you do not limp wrist your Glock now but what happens if your hand is injured?

A 1911 is not made of plastic.

Makers of 1911 guns did not have to give away their guns to get law enforcement business. Now since Glock stopped that, departments are leaving Glock.

I can continue but felt I would give you a few reasons.

My favorite is a Colt Lightweight Commander 45. It weights 3/4 pound less than a full size steel Government, has a great trigger, is accurate and packs well. It seems that the folks that like the 1911 style are older. The younger people tend to go for the poly frame double stacks. I can't say which is better but I'll stick to my guns, pun intended.

I carry Glocks a lot too.
Mostly a G19 or a G26. If it’s the Glock 26 I often times carry the antiquated S&W revolver Model 442 as well. I like the New York Reload.

I also often times carry either one of my two Wilson Combat 1911’s, that I bought in 1996, and have ten’s of thousands of rounds through them with a lot of IPSC matches under their belts.

I too took a “really good class” called Thunder Ranch Tactical Hand Gun. It was so good I took it 4 times. As well as Urban Rifle twice. My wife took the handgun class twice too.

I’ve seen Clint Smith teach with both a 1911 or a Glock. He obviously teaches with revolvers too.

Emory

I carried a Yam 10-8 for several years as a duty gun. A first quality 1911 is a great tool, with many advantages. However, one has to train regularly in the appropriate gun handling skills for that gun. I used a Wilson KZ9 as a training understudy, and it's a great shooter. As a cost effective choice, though, the various Glocks in 9mm are probably among the best all around choices.

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NHI, 10-8.

I own 1911s, and I love them...they are, to me, works of art as well as serious weapons. Glocks are tools...and they have their own beauty, in terms of function. I also have Glocks and other polymer pistols.

I think of it like this: I own an expensive watch, a fine piece of craftsmanship, unique, and one in which I take pride to own and to display. It keeps excellent time, and it pleases me just to look at it. I also own a Casio diver's watch which is a fine, functional piece that keeps excellent time. It wasn't expensive, and they are common, but it is totally reliable.

Guess which watch I wear for social occasions and which watch I wear to work?

I carry the 1911.
At the very least, this gun represents an ideal starting point in a ccw given its thin profile effective caliber and its overall layout.
concessions made from this point usually wont take you too far away from a 1911. perhaps being just customizations made to one.
Parts support for this gun are so vast and complete your 1911 may start life as a frame, which may be alloy (I may have seen some polymer frames as well) To this frame parts are fit per your own personal taste and in a few weeks to a few days, depending on your skill with files, you can be test driving your "perfect" 1911
no other gun is quite so vast as the 1911.

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it just needs more voltage

I not trying to start anything (although I may) I'm just trying to seriously analyze what the 1911 has on a modern pistol. So far I have 1) better trigger 2) less prone to limp wristing. The accuracy advantage of a 1911 is not much of a factor in a street fight but may be in competition.
On the other hand: A manual safety is not an advantage in a gun fight. No safety is an advantage in a gun fight.

The advantage of a modern pistol (Glock seems to be the chosen example so lets go with Glock)
1) high magazine capacity 2) No manual safety. 3) No hammer to snag on your jacket.

Sir, first off, kudos to you for actually taking a class. Not enough of us do that. That said, what you learned in that class is what works for you. It's not universal.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

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Wishin' don't make it so.

I've had 14 Glocks (9mm to 10mm). They are very cool guns in their own right. I am still contemplating a 19 with tritium night sights. My #1 complaint with a Glock is the HUGE under-cut at the bottom of the chamber. Blow one up and you'll see why, and you should rethink your choice if you have an ounce of sanity or just like your hands to work the way God intended them to. Now, the 1911 and it's berating is something, if not downright humorous to me. John Moses Browning designed the 1911 and many more incredible designs that are years ahead of their time. No gun ever has seen such widespread use with such efficiency(the 1911). When they are properly made and maintained (like ANY mechanical device) they are second to none and that is PRECISELY why they are so proliferate. It seems most large gun manufacturers are producing the 1911- Smith and Wesson!!,Colt,Remington,and Sig Sauer just to name a few. It is the 350 Chevy motor of guns. If it can be done and be expected to last, it can be done to a 1911. Any person with any gun or other item that requires any skill can fail miserably if the person is not properly trained on the item in question. My 1911 or 1911-design will be, and is, absolutely on my person or at my side to defend my life or others should it come down to that. God speed and best of luck in all endeavors as we all are still allowed an opinion. JMO

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Go big or stay home

Thanks for not being offended by my questioning of such a cultural icon as the 1911. I really want to learn. My life may one day depend on this. At the range my Colt Government 1911 is the most accurate weapon I own and is my "go to" pistol when I am competing against another shooter.
I did so well with the modern plastic pistol that I have to question whether my love for the 1911 is just sentimental BS or not. I am not trying to make a statement when I carry I just want to have a chance of defending my life.
My Glock yesterday did everything extremely well and I'm thinking it out performed the 1911s. Maybe it was just me.

Many of us have 50+ yrs of handgun shooting. I have almost 40 yrs of investigating & reconstructing crime and accidents. Often the work includes looking at gun related injuries. Trust me, plastic is the cause of many injuries and lawsuits.

Glocks do go KaBoom. Just google Glock KaBoom. You will find hundreds of cases and many happened to police officers.

You are right. Many of my reasons are not going to relate to a gun fight. However I do not buy or carry a gun looking to have a gun fight. If one happens, any of my guns, including my Glocks will work fine. I would not own a gun that will not do the job I need of it.

As to investment, buy a nice 1911, keep it a few years and sell it for more than you initially paid for it. Buy a Glock at $500 and at no time in the future will you be able to get more than $375-400 for it. Collect 15-20 guns and lose 20-25% on your investment and it will mean something to you.

Glock not being ergonomically correct does matter. There is recoil on the wrist. Repetitive shooting takes a toll on your wrist.

Again, I am not trying to argue the point. I am only giving the points that matter to gun buyers.

I have this nickel plated Jennings .22 that shoots VERY accurately and has no malfunctions.....!!?? How did this happen? They are junk.................just ask anyone. The little thing is an anomaly, I'm guessing. If it works, and it works for you, then all is good and we'll hope and pray we don't have to use them for other than fun. I have an incredible fondness for my Sig P220 (early West German with the pointed spur hammer) .45 acp. That gun has NEVER had ANY type of malfunction and is way better than tactically accurate.

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Go big or stay home

Sir, you're talking about two different things here. If you want to compare the pistols, take the class again with your 1911 and compare that to how you did with the Glock. If you want to compare your shooting to someone else's, pistol choice is almost immaterial.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

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Wishin' don't make it so.

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The thumb safety is a training issue. That may present a cost/benefit problem, but is surely not a major issue other than that. Mag capacity can be an issue - the G17 is a winner here. For personal defense, that is less likely important than in a duty gun, and even then the work environment can be a big variable. My agency has a very rural precinct, and an urban one. In the country, backup can be a LONG way off, and carrying a 1911 I had an 8 round Wilson ETM in it, and 4 more on my belt, with a few more in my patrol box and carbine case. Even with the G21 I carry 3 spare mags.

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NHI, 10-8.

THAT is a great idea! I will do just that. That is the only way to set my mind at ease.

I will say that of the three pistols that failed during this class one was a FN, one was a Kimber Ultra Raptor II (or something) 1911 and the other was a 1911 that the shooter pressed the slide stop with his right finger. The instructor came over smiling and said "watch this" and pushed the slide stop back in with his finger. So that is 66% of the failures in the class were 1911s and 33% were FNs. No Glocks, M&Ps or XDs failed that I was aware of.

Doug, how often have you needed more than one magazine?

I always said if I am in a drawn out gun fight, I will go home and the others can call me once it is over. I am a big fat guy and that makes me an easy target that is slow moving. My first shot must count.

I carry my Glock 19 and Norinco M1911 interchangeably. The M1911 is actually easier to carry, as it's thinner.

The safety is a non-issue. I've been shooting M1911s since the '70s.

My Glock 22 had the NY Trigger installed when I bought it. It was nearly unusable until it was removed. My Glock 19 had some combination of 8lb. connector and trigger spring when I got it. Likewise, it was hard to shoot accurately.

Regarding magazine capacity, it's not a fetish for me. Eight rounds of .45acp is perfectly adequate for any situation I'm LIKELY to encounter. More than that, and it's probably going to be a job for my CAR15.

I simply see no reason to rabidly prefer one over the other. They're both perfectly adequate self-defense handguns and I carry both.

CONUS I carry a LWT Commander in .45. The threat 'matrix' if you will, is, for me, not the same here and I feel better with a reliable gun in .45 caliber that is one inch thick that I can shoot very well. But after some 45 or so years with the 1911, it is not the best gun for everyone and I know that.

OCONUS, when I carry it is a G19. Meets my needs better in a different environmemt...but when all is said and done it usually ain't the gun that is gonna win the fight. That will almost always be determined by awareness, mindset, tactics, techniques and procedures under the stress of a real encounter.

They are both great pistols and both can get the job done...if the user is up to it.

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Run Fast, Bite Hard!

...well, other than an ar15...



Also, someone mentioned not having a hammer to snag as a Glock advantage. How exactly would you snag a cocked-and-locked 1911? There are points to critique on the 1911 - capacity, weight, maintenance schedule, hand-fit parts - but I don't think snagging its hammer is one of them.

Matt

Jennings did make a few accurate guns by mistake. I have seen a 9mm whose accuracy was truly astonishing by any standard and fed flawlessly, making it doubly blessed.
it did however, fall apart after 150 rounds and refused to make it through another string of 20 without repair thus ending its career.

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it just needs more voltage

Ive never had it happen. I can see how at first glance the hammer might look like a big snag point. Living with it however, its not the concern it appears to be at first glance the only part of the 1911 that ever made me a little nervous was its cocked and locked carry mode. Being around guns all my life i found it fairly easy to warm up to this feature since most long arms essentially operate the same way differing only in the long arms hammer being hidden from view.
your right about the AR15 .. it is at least as much of a mustang of guns as the 1911 ... just not quite as concealable

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it just needs more voltage

The 1911 fits my hand. The Glock doesn't. For me, the discussion is over. For others, FWIW, I will add that I have carried a stainless Colt Gov't Model in a Milt Sparks Summer Special (one belt loop) many hours at a stretch. It is not a problem. Since I wouldn't have a Glock unless nothing else were available (see above), I can't be sure, but I believe that it would not work as well IWB. I'm sure that someone makes a good belt holster that would work with it, but certainly no better than a 1911. As far as weight, I don't think it weighs much less than my Lightweight Commander, which is certainly not hard to get a good belt holster for.

Safety? The stock safety on a modern Colt disengages automatically when I draw the pistol. YMMV. I can holster a 1911 much more safely than most folks can holster a Glock, because I have a thumb on the hammer ensuring that it is not going forward no matter what the trigger runs into. And this is with the thumb safety on. Many people have had ADs while holstering Glocks that I would never have had with a 1911, even if Sarah Brady's pet mouse were hiding in the holster.

My Gov't Model is not a .40 S&W, so I'm not worried about the throated barrel.

Other than that, I suppose it's personal preference.

I'm going to say this, and this is truly how I feel. 1911's are for people that are a little further along the learning curve. If your going to throw something on and never practice with it, a GLOCK fits the bill. (just be careful putting it in the holster, that's usually when it shoots you back). Although in that case, a revolver is a better option.

If your going to take the time to learn how to gunfight, you'll eventually gravitate over to the 1911 or one of the big revolvers. There not "target" guns, although people try to make them that way. Amusingly, I hear people all the time talk about reliability issues with 1911s. I own 7, from different makers, and the only problems I've ever had were ammo related. My most recent purchase was a RIA copy of a mil spec 1911. I didn't replace any springs, polish anything or open up the ejection port. (I did change the magazine). It goes bang every time I pull the trigger and on a B27 out to 100 yards they will all be torso hits if I do my part. What more could you want?

Just to be fair, I own several glocks, all in .40. I would have no trouble trusting my life to one. But I personally choose a 3" 1911 for EDC. That choice was made before GLOCK was even invented. You pick what works best for you. As far as you and you glock doing better than those other guys shooting 1911s, would you have changed your opinion if they had out shot you?

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

If you can successfully completely conceal a 1911 my hat is off to you. I sure couldn't.

The largest of my Glocks that I can properly conceal are my 30 or my 36, depending on what I'm wearing. But they take a little effort and thought. A lightweight J-frame is a no-brainer, usually.

I shot my first 1911 in 1955 in the military. I've owned a number of them over the years and I currently have 4 keepers.

I normally carry a 640-3 in my pocket, loaded with .357 but when I go to the urban areas at night, I have a 1911 with me. They are heavy but with the right belt and holster, no problem. I use an OWB pancake the most but I also use a Galco shoulder rig if I have to wear a coat.

I own a Glock 30 .45 but I just feel more comfortable with a 1911.

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Ron
NRA Life Member

I carry mine in an OWB holster made by Ray Cory. With a loose shirt or sport jacket, completely hidden. (of course, I could conceal an RPG)

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

your not trying hard enough
Ive successfully and completely concealed a 629 with 8 3/8" barrel and a red dot sight rather regularly ... having done that, I find the 1911 to be a breeze

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it just needs more voltage

Why worry about what other people carry? You carry your glock and that is fine with you, others carry their 1911 and that is fine with them. When I get my 1911, I will carry it in rotation with my other heavy gun, a 357mag and my lighter gun, the Sigma.

As long as it works for the shooter, that is all that matters.

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Don't look, reload and shoot!

100% correct.

It does not matter what others carry since they do so for their own reasons. I have about every popular handgun a person would carry and have carried several over the years and very successfully. Yet, after many thouusands of rounds thru a 1911, a lot of hours of training by the US Army and then 30 yrs of wisdom developing inside my mind, I now carry a 1911 for many reasons and not just personal ones.

I suppose the popularity of a 100 yr old gun to young shooters might give a hint to those that never learned to shoot one properly.

I carried a stainless Gold Cup for several years in a pancake holster. I liked it and it concealed well under a sports jacket.

I also shot it better than any gun I've ever owned.

I am a proponent of carrying what you shoot best.

We are in total agreement here.

A person learns to shoot best with the best gun they shoot.

Virtually anyone can fire a gun and that is exactly what many do. Learning to shoot well requires learning the gun well.

Except that Colt made no effort to dehorn the gun and it left the linings of my jackets in tatters.

That was partly because the Gold Cup was a target gun and not a carry piece, and partly because Colt does not seem to pay much attention to dehorning in the first place.

I own a few 1911's and just bought a Range Officer, I have carried a 1911 for CCW and felt comfortable. I also at one time carried a S&W model 25 with a 6 inch barrel and it was well concealed.

I have given a lot of thought to making the Range Officer a primary carry gun. I like the caliber and the style of the gun, though I may switch out the rear sights with a Harrison model and gold bead the front sight.

I also like the the CZ-75 which I do carry a lot.

When I bought the Range Officer almost all of the clerks said it was to big to carry and it was a target competition model and a 1911. They sell a lot of Glocks and other Polymer models I just don't prefer them. In an earlier post I said practice with what you are going to carry and get comfortable with it. For a long time I carried K frames and love them.

I like the feeling of the 1911 in my hand.

I think down the road I will buy a Commander or officer size model just because I like them. Before I carry them I will practice practice practice. I shot my first 1911 when I was about 10, it was my Dad's and we were at a farm near Wind Lake Wisconsin.

For the 1911 get a good holster and belt.

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Stan

I carry my 1911 every day I can. I like my single action and my manual safety, if I didn't I wouldn't have chosen a 1911. It's all personal choice. I want to make my 8 bullets count instead of using a hicap plastic gun. That said a Glock is on my buying list as I am a crim justice student who will be going into law enforcement, and most of the departments I'm looking at use Glocks.

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Just the opinion of a kid

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Never. The County with which I have been a reserve deputy and from which I am about to retire is pretty big, and the less populated patrol districts are big. It is not uncommon to be a HARD 30 minute drive from the nearest backup, and not unknown to take an hour to get to some calls. If you don't have the stuff in your car and/or on your person, you may never get it. I also carried 3 spare mags of AR ammo even when I did not have my own carbine. Where I worked 2000-2007 as a prosecutor, and where I am now, it would not be a shock to have no cops within an hour. Large counties, low density tax base. As Pat Rogers says, policing is very regional. Visitors from Chicago/LA/and especially NYPD are aghast at the territory covered. A serious call in NY is likely to have 20 or more cops in 60 seconds.

We did have a shooting in 2005 or so in which so many rounds were expended due to the odd nature of the circumstances, a resupply had to be brought out from the armory. It was admittedly a really weird situation, but for those there, it was a huge test sample.

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NHI, 10-8.

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I have heard of the XSE model as being short for "Xtra Sharp Edges". Colt is infamous for this.

Glocks and KaBooms: mostly with the 40, as far as I know. They are also inconsistently prone to a variety of malfunctions in that caliber. (There are at least two LONG strings about this on 10-8, and another on LF.) I prefer the 9mm Gen2/Gen3 guns. I am not a fan of the 40 in any platform, but if I had to have one it would probably be the Smith M&Ps. The 40 is really prone to case set back, and a good rule is to chamber a round once and then shoot or discard it if you have to take it out. I tend to apply that with all auto pistols, but would be ruthless in doing so with a 40.

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NHI, 10-8.

I've regularly carried a full size Norinco M1911. After replacement of the garbage small parts, it's been 100% reliable.

With 200gr. Hornady TAP, it's both superbly accurate and extremely controllable. In fact, it's MUCH more controllable than my Glock 22.

I feel every bit as well armed with that Norinco as I do with my Glock 19.

Around here, backup can be miles away as well.

My thoughts on ammo supply is that in the very few extended shootings I have studied (never been in one and do not want to be), the bad guy had rifles. LEO going to the car was picked off. Handguns were useless at those distances. This was brought out in both the Miami and L.A shootings. Sadly, most drawn out shootings leave LEO injured or dead. The only officer I personally know to run a gun (Glock 17) dry was placed on 45 day suspension for Reckless Discharge of his sidearm. All he did was fire at a car trying to run him over in an effort to flee a felony crime. I have met, dealt with, worked with or for hundreds of officers over the years and not one ever had to change a mag during a shooting. I was wondering if you had.

And Thank you for the service you have provided the citizens of your county. I know two attorneys in this area, one a prosecuting DA and one a personal injury attorney that serve as reserve officers. I admire both of them as well.

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I think we had one a couple of years back, but I can't swear to it. I agree it would be unusual at best, but ... better to have and not need than need and not have.

That suspension sure seems ... iffy.

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NHI, 10-8.

I'm new to this forum, but I'll put my 2 cents in on carrying 1911s. I have a Dan Wesson VBob Combat Commander that is a beautiful handgun with the lightest, smoothest trigger you can imagine, and it is extremely accurate and completely reliable. It is however, heavy, big and hard to conceal. I much prefer to carry my Glock 26, or my S&W 649, especially in the summer months. The Glock and the Smith are also a lot easier to maintain and I don't get as concerned with surface dings. As much as I love the 1911, I guess I prefer to leave it at home.

I can think of an instance where reckless discharged should have been applied to a pair of officers in my area. Man was drunkenly driving a lawn mower. When lit up he pointed what turned out to be a BB gun in the officers' direction. No argument on the officers firing; they perceived a threat and justly attempted to neutralize the perp, they however fired 13 shots, hitting him three times, and sending their misses into a parking garage, damaging several vehicles, luckily not hitting any innocent bystanders.

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Just the opinion of a kid

I like how my 1911 is big and heavy, better for to pistolwhip a punka--
Though on a serious note, I find the two and a half or so lbs comforting, I like knowing my pistol is there.

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Just the opinion of a kid

The first Illinois State Policeman to use his S&W Model 39 when they were first issued (late '60s or early '70s) ran his gun dry. A guy pulled a gun on him during a routine traffic stop. As I recall the account in "Guns" (or "American Handgunner") he remembered only reaching for his firearm, then standing by the car with the slide locked back. I don't remember how many times he shot his assailant, but I think it was 7-8 times.

First, welcome to the Forum and jump in any time with advice, questions or comments.

Now, I am going to ask you to do something for me. Please measure you DW Combat for width. Do the same for your Glock. Your Glock will be thicker. Common sense says thinner is more concealable. Now weigh each of them. The DW will be lighter. Weight is also a factor in concealed carry. Your admission on the trigger is also noted.

So with the scales of equality favoring the DW, why carry the Glock unless you just love ugly guns or figure if it gets lost, then nothing is going to be missed?

That is the way it is supposed to happen. But it was not a drawn out gun battle that lasted through several mags of ammo. It was impulsive shooting (which I am against due to it running a gun dry at a time that one may need another round) based on emotion.

Several years ago, I lost a friend in Shreveport, LA. He and another officer I know had been dispatched to a popular upscale restaurant for an alarm call. They knew they had an intruder but chose to not wait for the dog to arrive and went to clear the building themselves. The friend went into a restroom and was checking the stalls. As he opened one door, the intruder opened fire, killing the officer. The other officer came in and opened fire on the intruder. His gun empty, he grabbed the downed officer's gun and emptied it as well into the intruder. After it was long over, I spoke with the surviving officer. He did not remember anything other than initially shooting at the intruder and only learned what he did from the shooting team. It was not a shoot out but an emotional reaction. FWIW: He saved the taxpayers a lot of money with instant justice.

We carry spare tires in our vehicles. The probability of a flat is always there. We have smoke alarms in our homes with good reason.

But why weight one's self down with ammo that statistically will never be used? It is rough on the back and legs carrying added pounds of weight. The added mags can be a hinderence in a scuffle and possible source of injury. During a shootout, someone is going down before 100 rounds are fired. If it is a stand-off, then other officers will be there shortly. You would be shocked to see how fast long distances can be covered when an officer calls for assistance in a shots fired call.

From what I have studied, the drawbacks to carrying added ammo outweighs the potential for need. But then each to his own.

It is so easy to conceal a 1911. I use a crossbreed super tuck and can totally conceal with a t shirt.